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Old 2010-07-16, 09:47   Link #3101
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
Like Jan-poo said there at least two servant waiting rooms. And we know there are beds in them from Kumasawa and Nanjo's murder/disappearances in episode 2. I don't think it's really strange for it to be assumed they have living arrangements at the mansion.
Beds in them, yes, sure. After all, a servant shift is several days long. Are those beds permanent living arrangements for anyone? Unlikely.
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:08   Link #3102
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Oliver wouldn't that explain the Gohda's notebook quite well?

Shannon doesn't have any place to live when she's not supposed to be working in the Mansion. But she doesn't really go anywhere, she simply take refuge on the many secret rooms in the Rokkenjima dungeons.

At that point she isn't really Shannon nor Kanon, she's Beatrice the Master of the night.

Occasionally she roams the Mansion at night, probably to pull some tricks or for who knows what reason.
That's why Gohda saw a silhoutte that didn't match with anyone else. That's why the trick in the kitchen was possible even if no one beside Gohda and Genji were "supposed" to be there.
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:13   Link #3103
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Even if Shannon (or anyone really) is "supposed" to live off-island, that doesn't preclude that somebody is living on-island. Heck, Kuwadorian could well be inhabited by someone, although they only go there on days when they're not supposed to be seen around.

Gohda is sure nobody else is on the island, but he's Gohda, so he's not exactly a reliable investigator of that fact.
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:16   Link #3104
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Shannon doesn't have any place to live when she's not supposed to be working in the Mansion. But she doesn't really go anywhere, she simply take refuge on the many secret rooms in the Rokkenjima dungeons.
Well, that works.

Now, is there any special reason to stalk George rather than Battler when off-island?...
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:22   Link #3105
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Eh... even if indirectly you brought up a good point.

If we consider the fact that Shannon went as far as Okinawa, what prevented her to go to Tokyo and hit Battler in the head?

Okay, maybe she was a little young, but don't tell me that Kumasawa wouldn't accept to accompany her if she were to burst crying and explaining her unrequited love.

Yeah okay, Battler made her a promise so Shannon expected him to make the first move. But come on, if it gets to the point that it becomes a real hell on earth, just save yourself for crying out loud!
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:38   Link #3106
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah okay, Battler made her a promise so Shannon expected him to make the first move. But come on, if it gets to the point that it becomes a real hell on earth, just save yourself for crying out loud!
Again, this is a problem with any "promise" made to [Beatrice]. The only logical conclusion is that it has to take place on the island, and it has to involve Battler and no one else.

Beato even says as much when they meet in person in EP4. She points out that the 'sin' has to do with Rokkenjima.
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:38   Link #3107
Oliver
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Precisely my point.

Shannon has something like 2-4 years to go after Battler on the mainland before the option of having a relationship with George even comes up. She's younger during that time, but... Well, I used to go cross-country bus travelling back when I was 12 or so, and Japan is a far safer country to do that than mine. Let us assume that she was unable to for one reason or another, and Kinzo's death gave her the opportunity -- if she's living in Kuwadorian when off duty, that makes sense, now there isn't anyone to stop her.

But if she suddenly became free to move, why is George the future she decided to pursue and not Battler? There has to be some sort of special reason, and if Shkanontrice is true, there should be a way to deduce it.
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Old 2010-07-16, 10:51   Link #3108
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
There has to be some sort of special reason, and if Shkanontrice is true, there should be a way to deduce it.
It's because Shkanontrice isn't true.

You know, just thinking about it, doesn't it seem a little odd? If Shannon and Beatrice occupy the same body, why is Beatrice going out of her way to help both her and Kanon in EP2, which would potentially jettison her own chances to make her wish come true? Shannon and Kanon are "brother and sister", but there is no such degree of kinship between the other two and Beatrice. And if waiting for the promise to be fulfilled is "torture" for a thousand years, it certainly seems odd that Beatrice would actually lessen her chances of being delivered from it.

It can only be a good thing for Beatrice if neither 'Shannon' or 'Kanon' find love.
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:01   Link #3109
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
When I say "pull at the thread" I don't mean I am trying to disprove what you're saying or argue against it. I mean that I want to know what are the conclusions if what you're saying is true and what I am saying is also true.


My conclusion would be that if Shannon is Beatrice (and i'm not really sure about this) and if she always stays on Rokkenjima then we have a possible "culpirt" of the frequent pranks, magic circle and whatever that happens at night.
Howerver we know 2 things: Beatrice was not yet "materialized" in 1980, and Battler's sin isn't against her.
Now if Battler promise was to Shannon, and she only took the name Beatrice later, would that violate the red?
I also agree with you regarding her supposed love to Battler. She would probably have no problem to reach him if she was able to go out with George.
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:05   Link #3110
Oliver
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
It's because Shkanontrice isn't true.
I don't think it's true either, but who's going to listen to us now that Ep6 is translated. Like with Max Otto von Stirlitz, someone's going to find an excuse and say Shkanontrice was there to deliver oranges or something.

But I want to hear that excuse and my own imagination is failing right at where I placed the question mark.
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:10   Link #3111
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
My conclusion would be that if Shannon is Beatrice (and i'm not really sure about this) and if she always stays on Rokkenjima then we have a possible "culpirt" of the frequent pranks, magic circle and whatever that happens at night.
That actually works if we have more than one character claiming the name "Beatrice", though to cite the Ep6-bourne logic supporting this thought we'd need to switch the thread.
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:14   Link #3112
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Gohda's tip makes very clear that there's a prankster, and the only apparent candidate is Genji or someone who stays on the island even when they aren't supposed to be there. It's not entirely unimaginable that it is Genji, but Gohda doesn't seem to think so based on what he's seen.
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:20   Link #3113
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I also don't think Shkannontrice is true. Or to better say, i hope it is not true, as i don't like all the implication that this would have. I mean, killing 17 people because your prince didn't pick you up with a white horse really sounds like a joke. And this is the tip of the iceberg...
I really miss the Van Dine rule about love
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:21   Link #3114
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Gohda's tip makes very clear that there's a prankster, and the only apparent candidate is Genji or someone who stays on the island even when they aren't supposed to be there. It's not entirely unimaginable that it is Genji, but Gohda doesn't seem to think so based on what he's seen.
Kumasawa is also a good candidate for the prankster role. Especially regarding the magic circles
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:27   Link #3115
Oliver
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Kumasawa is also a good candidate for the prankster role. Especially regarding the magic circles
Most would say, however, that they don't like the idea of Kumasawa in a negligee.

I'm not sure it would be that bad, actually, if Virgilia is any indication, who knows what kind of physique does Kumasawa hide under that kimono of hers...
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Old 2010-07-16, 11:32   Link #3116
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Quote:
Gohda's tip makes very clear that there's a prankster, and the only apparent candidate is Genji or someone who stays on the island even when they aren't supposed to be there. It's not entirely unimaginable that it is Genji, but Gohda doesn't seem to think so based on what he's seen.
Actually, ep6 *might* give an hint on who could be such prankster, but as this is the Ep. 5 thread...

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Old 2010-07-16, 13:10   Link #3117
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
Most would say, however, that they don't like the idea of Kumasawa in a negligee.

I'm not sure it would be that bad, actually, if Virgilia is any indication, who knows what kind of physique does Kumasawa hide under that kimono of hers...
lol i don't think anyone in the mansion have ever seen Beatrice as a person. The only remarkable facts are just the magic scribbles and the various prank, that were then connected to Beatrice. So Kumasawa and probably Genji are responsible from spreading the Legend of the Golden Witch, as you can notice even on the game board when Kumasawa often starts telling some story about her without even being asked to.

Well what about Genji in a negligee then
EDIT: Or Nanjo, i think there are some pic of him in the img threads
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Old 2010-07-16, 13:22   Link #3118
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Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
I don't think it's true either, but who's going to listen to us now that Ep6 is translated.
Remember, there are different versions of Shkanontrice. I still don't like Shannon = Kanon but at the same time I think Shkanontrice is part of the truth.

I created a version of Shkanontrice prior to any knowledge of episode 6 was available. I can be read here.

For the moment, just assume you are Shannon and Kanon and want to pull off a convincing Beatrice illusion. It wouldn't be difficult to pull this off because Kanon's appearance somewhat resembles Shannon's. To create a perfect alibi, wouldn't it effective to have Shannon disguise as Beatrice while Kanon disguises as Shannon? Isn't it just a very simple magic illusion? "Shannon can't be Beatrice because person X saw her at time Y, which was when Maria received the envelope from Beatrice."

In episode 2, Kanon is confirmed to be dead by red truth and then Gohda, Shannon, and Genji claim to have seen him alive. It's reasonable to make the common theory that they were simply lying about it. However, isn't it equally valid to use this as a clue to show that Kanon can be declared dead in red while someone with Kanon's appearance is still alive?

People may see this and try to solve other riddles in the game with it. Why? There's no reason to do that. I have my own theories for all those other riddles but they are completely independent of Kanon dressing up as Shannon to simply provide an alibi for her while she is disguised as Beatrice.

This was not meant to be directed at you Oliver and I respect all of the theories you have made so far. I just want to stress to anyone who may read this:
Drawing a hard line in the sand between Shkanontrice and ghostErika theories, where you must choose one or the other, is not the right approach in my opinion.
I think the answer is more towards the center.
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Old 2010-07-16, 13:26   Link #3119
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Sniesk View Post
Well what about Genji in a negligee then
EDIT: Or Nanjo, i think there are some pic of him in the img threads
Both of them appear to have very masculine builds which wouldn't look like a woman even in a negligee. Nanjo is mostly drawn in this manner because a theory exists equating him with Gaap or Beatrice. (I think Gaap is actually Rosa, but this idea failed to find widespread support...)

Regardless, give me a mirror, a slide projector and a bar of soap, and I'll show you a woman in a negligee where none is supposed to exist without actually having to wear a negligee myself, so this shouldn't really be a problem.
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Old 2010-07-16, 13:43   Link #3120
Oliver
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
For the moment, just assume you are Shannon and Kanon and want to pull off a convincing Beatrice illusion. It wouldn't be difficult to pull this off because Kanon's appearance somewhat resembles Shannon's. To create a perfect alibi, wouldn't it effective to have Shannon disguise as Beatrice while Kanon disguises as Shannon? Isn't it just a very simple magic illusion? "Shannon can't be Beatrice because person X saw her at time Y, which was when Maria received the envelope from Beatrice."
Unfortunately if Shannon and Kanon are indeed thought to be sufficiently alike, this scheme does not offer them significant benefits -- If anyone suspects Kanon may dress up as a girl, anyone can suspect him of being Beatrice, so what's the structural difference? Isn't it easier to just let Kanon be Beatrice in the first place instead?

Mind you, that's not to say that no disguise is possible. (though I do believe the hints for any disguise going on are somewhat lacking, we don't really know what is a "sufficient" hint in this interpretation of Knox...)
My beef with Shkanon(trice) is the concept of personality death in red, (which breeds monsters like Lord Goldsmith if not Kinzotrice outright) the need for almost the entire cast to support the charade for reasons unclear, and the behaviour of the resulting composite character which I do not find consistent with the goals normally proposed for it. While I've been trying to speculate around for ways to plug those holes, the result doesn't improve a lot. (see above)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Drawing a hard line in the sand between Shkanontrice and ghostErika theories, where you must choose one or the other, is not the right approach in my opinion.
I think the answer is more towards the center.
Indeed, I have a suspicion recently that both a form of Shkanon and a form of GhostErika may be true. At least, chronotrig's variant of Shkanontrice seems to get around the Ep5 scene in the parlour by doubting Erika's perspective. The variant of GhostErika that I myself described explicitly denies Meta-Erika access to Piece-known-as-Erika's perspective.
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