AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-10-26, 00:53   Link #3221
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I'll go one better and show you the original text from the novel.

屋敷以外の全員は、親族会議開始後、屋敷内にて何を行なうことも不可能なり。
For everyone outside the mansion, once the family conference began, it was impossible to do anything inside the mansion.
I don't see any problems there.
This red only say that It was impossible to do anything inside the mansion if your located outside the mansion but that doesn't restrict anyone from entering
the mansion though.
So when george went inside the mansion he wasn't covered by that red anymore.
unsuspectingvisitor is offline  
Old 2011-10-26, 12:54   Link #3222
haguruma
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Germany
Age: 29
Send a message via ICQ to haguruma Send a message via MSN to haguruma
Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
I don't see any problems there.
This red only say that It was impossible to do anything inside the mansion if your located outside the mansion but that doesn't restrict anyone from entering
the mansion though.
So when george went inside the mansion he wasn't covered by that red anymore.
That is not what the original Japanese text implies. 屋敷以外の全員 [yashiki-igai no zenin] means something "everyone of those who are defined as the party outside of the mansion". Those yashiki-igai no zenin are clearly defined even within the Red Truth arguments.

It starts with 親族会議以前に、ヱリカ、譲治、朱志香、真里亞、南條、郷田、熊沢は、屋敷より退出し、ゲストハウスへ移動 したものなり。 (Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanj˘, G˘da and Kumasawa withdrew from the mansion and moved over to the guesthouse.) and goes on to the argument above. Because at 12' midnight the group of those outside the mansion is defined as "Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanj˘, G˘da and Kumasawa".
Even if for example one clock was tampered with, the time for the "outside party" would still be midnight even if it was 11:30 to those on the inside...unless somebody manipulated all clocks and watches on Rokkenjima.
haguruma is offline  
Old 2011-10-26, 15:52   Link #3223
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
Also, even if we assume that the clock did chime early, now there's a contradiction with Natsuhi's observations. She went to answer the phone in her bedroom immediately after hearing the chime and didn't leave till morning, but on the other hand, we have red truth saying she was in the hall with Krauss and Genji at midnight.
This statement by LyricalAura has not been accounted for in your response, I think. Of all the things Natsuhi should be lying about, this isn't one of them.

There's also still the fact that sealing ALL entrances of the Guesthouse was the VERY FIRST thing Erika did upon returning there. She only played cards with the cousins afterwards.

Furthermore, if you think the motive of having the letter appear was a prank, by Shannon, to produce an impossibly mystery for Erika, from a Gameboard perspective, this is accomplished FAR more easily by just having the adults lie.

This theme is reinforced, in at least in this episode, because ALL of those characters lied for Yasu later on, too. Remember, the corpses in the cousins room were impossible to misidentify, yet everyone, even Battler, just lied about it.
Kealym is offline  
Old 2011-10-27, 03:21   Link #3224
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
That is not what the original Japanese text implies. 屋敷以外の全員 [yashiki-igai no zenin] means something "everyone of those who are defined as the party outside of the mansion". Those yashiki-igai no zenin are clearly defined even within the Red Truth arguments.

It starts with 親族会議以前に、ヱリカ、譲治、朱志香、真里亞、南條、郷田、熊沢は、屋敷より退出し、ゲストハウスへ移動 したものなり。 (Before the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanj˘, G˘da and Kumasawa withdrew from the mansion and moved over to the guesthouse.) and goes on to the argument above. Because at 12' midnight the group of those outside the mansion is defined as "Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanj˘, G˘da and Kumasawa".
Even if for example one clock was tampered with, the time for the "outside party" would still be midnight even if it was 11:30 to those on the inside...unless somebody manipulated all clocks and watches on Rokkenjima.
I'll just want to remind you that The clock chime and the knock happened at the same time. So that means the time inside the dining hall was 12:00 and the correct time must be 12:30 .
The red that said
Quote:
At 24:00, only Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa existed outside the mansion
wasn't effective because this Red was limited to the time "At 24:00" and the Correct time during the knock was 12:30.
My argument now is Its possible for george to leave the guest house At 12:10 the time in the dining hall at that time will be 11:45 .George still have enough time to knock and place the letter since the knock happened at 12:00 clock time.
Also the Red that Lyrical said im sure was translated in english like this.
Quote:
It was impossible for anyone outside the mansion to influence anything inside the mansion around the time of the family conference.
Now consider the time when this Red was truth used in Ep5. I just reread it so im sure Its when Erika argued that someone outside the mansion used some kind of trick to place the letter there.
It said someone outside so if george manage to enter the mansion he's no longer affected by that red since he's now inside the mansion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
This statement by LyricalAura has not been accounted for in your response, I think. Of all the things Natsuhi should be lying about, this isn't one of them.
Oh yeah i didn't notice that before
Quote:
There's also still the fact that sealing ALL entrances of the Guesthouse was the VERY FIRST thing Erika did upon returning there. She only played cards with the cousins afterwards.
She indeed seal all windows of the guesthouse BUT she never said that she sealed the door of the guesthouse and the door of the cousin room. Only Confirmed room that was sealed are kumasawa's room , and Gohda's room sealed until 1:00.
Quote:
Furthermore, if you think the motive of having the letter appear was a prank, by Shannon, to produce an impossibly mystery for Erika, from a Gameboard perspective, this is accomplished FAR more easily by just having the adults lie.

This theme is reinforced, in at least in this episode, because ALL of those characters lied for Yasu later on, too. Remember, the corpses in the cousins room were impossible to misidentify, yet everyone, even Battler, just lied about it.
The themed of the other Episode that everyone can lie is irrelevant to this game since the Gamemaster was Lambdadelta not Beatrice. Lying was basically Beatrice's style of fighting. The existence of the fantasy scene in all her games just proved that. But lambdadelta was style was different. Her title Witch of Certainty can be self explanatory and also There is no Fantasy scene on this game that tried to explain how things happened so there's no lying in lambda's part.

Im sure she run this game with Certainty because that is what we see in all the Red truth that regarding the letter and knock thing. It's close to being certain that it was impossible thing for a human to achieve.But there's no such thing as 100% certainty so there must be some trick to it. But if you stop thinking and resort to more unlikable answer its the same as lambda winning and making you accept that the witch did it.

Anyways, this is where i got my theory that the clock was altered.First,There's no Red that said the knock happened at 12:00 so i can doubt the time when the knock happened. The chime of the clock was very suspicious because it sound the same time as the Knock. But it can be explained with this blue the clock was used to mislead everyone in the room to make them think that the knock happened "At 24:00". Some of the Red truth was only Focused on the time " at 12:00". That in itself was suspicious.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post

Also, even if we assume that the clock did chime early, now there's a contradiction with Natsuhi's observations. She went to answer the phone in her bedroom immediately after hearing the chime and didn't leave till morning, but on the other hand, we have red truth saying she was in the hall with Krauss and Genji at midnight.
Here's a possibility that came in my mind.[ The phone call happened way before the knock occur. .

Well my theory states that the clock in the dining hall was altered possibly 30 minutes. Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji was in the second floor At 12:00(11:30). The time in the Dining hall ,at that time, will be 11:30. We didn't know the time when Natsuhi went to her room to answer the phone call.So i'll assume that the call happened during 12:15(11:45) and also assume that george went inside the mansion at 12:10(11:40). by the way,i'll put the clock time in parenthesis and place it next to the correct time.

Now with that time frame there's two possibilities i can think of. There's a possibility that george was the one That called Natsuhi and after that left a letter in front of the dining hall and knocked on the door. and another possibility was Its Yasu who called Natsuhi by phone and after that went to the Dining hall way before george knocked on the door and placed the letter in front of the dining hall.

This certainly explain why the narrator said at that time the knock happened "lets go back in time a bit"
unsuspectingvisitor is offline  
Old 2011-10-27, 05:30   Link #3225
Kealym
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
She indeed seal all windows of the guesthouse BUT she never said that she sealed the door of the guesthouse and the door of the cousin room. Only Confirmed room that was sealed are kumasawa's room , and Gohda's room sealed until 1:00.
This is where I think there's a misunderstanding - it's CONFIRMED that Erika sealed the ALL the Guesthouse windows, BEFORE MIDNIGHT. And EVERY seal was intact when she checked them in the morning. In fact, upon re-reading the scene, she states that she sealed the windows as soon as she found the gold with Battler, and not upon her return with the cousins, as I'd assumed.

She neglects to say that fully, at first, but the exchange goes something like this:

Beato : Maybe Kumasawa / Godha did it!
Erika : Nah, I sealed their rooms.
Beato : They cousins died much earlier!
Erika : Nah, I was playing cards with them until midnight.
Beato : Maybe Nanjo, then!
Erika : Nah, I was with the cousins before midnight, and was with Nanjo in the library until 1:00am.
Beato : Someone climbed to the second floor!
Erika : Nah. I should have said this earlier, but immediately after finding the gold, I sealed the entire damn guesthouse. Yeah.

So, Erika's activity goes something like this :
  1. Finds gold with Battler between 10-10:45pm
  2. Seals all of the Guesthouse windows
  3. Returns to the gold, and denies any right to it
  4. Erika, Jessica, George, Maria, Nanjo, Godha, and Kumasawa return to the Guesthouse
  5. Sealed Kumasawa's room
  6. Sealed Godha's room
  7. Played cards with cousins until midnight
  8. Spend midnight to 1:00am with Nanjo in the archive
  9. Enter lounge
  10. At 1:00, notify Godha that Rosa has returned.
  11. From 1:00-3:00 am, she monitors Godha and Nanjo from the lounge
  12. After 3:00, Battler returns. Nanjo's room is sealed, and Erika monitors Cousins room until morning

I was slightly mistaken - Erika likely did not seal the front entrance, because her entire argument is that Natsuhi used the front entrance to commit the crime, and no abnormal seal is noted.

You see the problem, though, right? At this point, you're arguing that George went to the mansion, knocked and placed the letter, and returned to the Cousins room in the Guesthouse, without being seen by anybody, all in the time it would've taken Erika to place two pieces of tape and walk upstairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
The themed of the other Episode that everyone can lie is irrelevant to this game since the Gamemaster was Lambdadelta not Beatrice. Lying was basically Beatrice's style of fighting. The existence of the fantasy scene in all her games just proved that. But lambdadelta was style was different. Her title Witch of Certainty can be self explanatory and also There is no Fantasy scene on this game that tried to explain how things happened so there's no lying in lambda's part.
Well, there wasn't much fantasy explanation in Legend, either - just dead bodies appearing everywhere. But no, "people lying" is a theme that Lambda uses, as well. Eva, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Nanjo, and Battler ALL LIED about the cousins being dead. They were not "mistaken", they all knew the cousins were still alive, and LIED about it, in Lambda's game.

Also, Lambda does some weird stuff in general - during the entire Court of Illusions, she never defends the Witch side, even though SHE KNOWS Erika's theory is wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
But if you stop thinking and resort to more unlikable answer its the same as lambda winning and making you accept that the witch did it.
Most people who have thought it out landed on "the adults lied about the knock and letter." Lambda's trick was using red to talk about something that didn't exist. The knock is never confirmed to have happened, and there's no good way anybody could have made it, or placed the letter, as described

Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
But it can be explained with this blue the clock was used to mislead everyone in the room to make them think that the knock happened "At 24:00". Some of the Red truth was only Focused on the time " at 12:00". That in itself was suspicious.
What's the point of fooling the parents, though? They are all DEFINITELY part of Yasu's plot by morning - at the very least, Rosa is definitely part of Yasu's plot by the time she returns to the Guesthouse at 1:00am. The adults have watches, as well. And it's suspicious that Shannon / Kanon, who we KNOW are the creator(s) of the letters, are simply in the room when one allegedly appear outside the room. Kanon is the one who picks it up, even.



Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
Here's a possibility that came in my mind.[ The phone call happened way before the knock occur. .
Likely not. At 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in the corridor on the second floor of the mansion. When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unsuspectingvisitor View Post
Spoiler for space:
This doesn't work, either - that would mean Natsuhi took the phone call in her room BEFORE she heard the clock chime midnight, and she has no reason to lie about this.

I'm not sure why you're so opposed to this solution.

It's pretty much the same as the riddle of the chapel door in Episode 2 : Beato said all those red truths about how one could get in or out of the chapel, but it doesn't mean anything once you notice that the chapel was never confirmed to be locked, anyway.
Kealym is offline  
Old 2011-10-27, 20:10   Link #3226
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
This is where I think there's a misunderstanding - it's CONFIRMED that Erika sealed the ALL the Guesthouse windows, BEFORE MIDNIGHT. And EVERY seal was intact when she checked them in the morning. In fact, upon re-reading the scene, she states that she sealed the windows as soon as she found the gold with Battler, and not upon her return with the cousins, as I'd assumed.

She neglects to say that fully, at first, but the exchange goes something like this:

Beato : Maybe Kumasawa / Godha did it!
Erika : Nah, I sealed their rooms.
Beato : They cousins died much earlier!
Erika : Nah, I was playing cards with them until midnight.
Beato : Maybe Nanjo, then!
Erika : Nah, I was with the cousins before midnight, and was with Nanjo in the library until 1:00am.
Beato : Someone climbed to the second floor!
Erika : Nah. I should have said this earlier, but immediately after finding the gold, I sealed the entire damn guesthouse. Yeah.

So, Erika's activity goes something like this :
  1. Finds gold with Battler between 10-10:45pm
  2. Seals all of the Guesthouse windows
  3. Returns to the gold, and denies any right to it
  4. Erika, Jessica, George, Maria, Nanjo, Godha, and Kumasawa return to the Guesthouse
  5. Sealed Kumasawa's room
  6. Sealed Godha's room
  7. Played cards with cousins until midnight
  8. Spend midnight to 1:00am with Nanjo in the archive
  9. Enter lounge
  10. At 1:00, notify Godha that Rosa has returned.
  11. From 1:00-3:00 am, she monitors Godha and Nanjo from the lounge
  12. After 3:00, Battler returns. Nanjo's room is sealed, and Erika monitors Cousins room until morning

I was slightly mistaken - Erika likely did not seal the front entrance, because her entire argument is that Natsuhi used the front entrance to commit the crime, and no abnormal seal is noted.

You see the problem, though, right? At this point, you're arguing that George went to the mansion, knocked and placed the letter, and returned to the Cousins room in the Guesthouse, without being seen by anybody, all in the time it would've taken Erika to place two pieces of tape and walk upstairs.
I kinda change my argument awhile ago about the time george left the guest house. So here's my argument

He left the guest house during the time Erika and dr. nanjo went to the library. There's a 1 hour span of time that the guest house wasn't observed by Erika so there's no risk of him being spotted at all.

lets apply my theory here, Erika and Nanjo spend their time in the library during the time 12:00-1:00. The Clock at that time should be 11:30-12:30. Well the clock sound the same time as the knock so the clock time must be 12:00 and the correct time 12:30. Remember that Erika was still in the library at 12:30 when the knock happened so there's no way that she can spot him during the time she was in the library.
Quote:
Well, there wasn't much fantasy explanation in Legend, either - just dead bodies appearing everywhere. But no, "people lying" is a theme that Lambda uses, as well. Eva, Hideyoshi, Kyrie, Rudolf, Nanjo, and Battler ALL LIED about the cousins being dead. They were not "mistaken", they all knew the cousins were still alive, and LIED about it, in Lambda's game.

Also, Lambda does some weird stuff in general - during the entire Court of Illusions, she never defends the Witch side, even though SHE KNOWS Erika's theory is wrong.
yeah there's no fantasy scene in legend but Hideyoshi and Kanon Lied to George about Shannon's corpse.That still counts as lying.

Did they really lied? i'll put two red truths here.

Quote:
anyone looking at George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, or Genji's corpses could confirm at a glance that they are dead
Quote:
At a glance, anyone could confirm that these corpses are dead, so it is absolutely impossible that they are just people playing dead.
This Red truth doesn't confirm whether George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji was a corpse at that time. What if they are just playing dead . So that means Those body was still alive and cannot be called a corpse at all.

Also i remember that Lambda refuse to say in red that the Body that was discovered are dead. So there's a possibility that they are still alive at that time.


Quote:
Most people who have thought it out landed on "the adults lied about the knock and letter." Lambda's trick was using red to talk about something that didn't exist. The knock is never confirmed to have happened, and there's no good way anybody could have made it, or placed the letter, as described
This is where my theory comes to place. It wasn't denied by the red so there's no way to disproved it. The possibility that they all lied about it wasn't denied either. But the question is What's the point ? Why did they lie? Did they really lied to someone?. I don't remember that they told erika about the knock though.

Quote:
What's the point of fooling the parents, though? They are all DEFINITELY part of Yasu's plot by morning - at the very least, Rosa is definitely part of Yasu's plot by the time she returns to the Guesthouse at 1:00am. The adults have watches, as well. And it's suspicious that Shannon / Kanon, who we KNOW are the creator(s) of the letters, are simply in the room when one allegedly appear outside the room. Kanon is the one who picks it up, even.
I know that There's no point of fooling the parents but i think this riddle was for Meta characters. Erika was the only one in the game board that can see the red truth so im sure she was the target. she is also the detective. And everyone in the dining doesn't seem to care who place the letter there.

I don't see any plot that Yasu did (except the letter and knock thing) in the gameboard though.

There was a scene where Beatrice was suprise that someone was trying to copy her and the fact that the magic circle was just a immitation confirms that.

There's nothing in the game that say The adults have a watch on their hands.
so i can used this red to deny that
Quote:
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented
Quote:
Likely not. At 24:00, Natsuhi, Krauss, and Genji were in the corridor on the second floor of the mansion. When Genji finished transferring the call, he immediately returned to the waiting room.
you don't understand my theory at all though. Based on my theory, If at 24:00 they were in the second floor corridor. The clock in the dining hall will be 11:30. The knock happened at 12:00 based on the time of the clock.

Ii agree, there's no way that the call happened before the knock. But there still a possibility that the call happened after the knock.
Lets say after george place the letter and after he knocked on the door.
Quote:
This doesn't work, either - that would mean Natsuhi took the phone call in her room BEFORE she heard the clock chime midnight, and she has no reason to lie about this.
my argument to this was above ^
Quote:
I'm not sure why you're so opposed to this solution.
Actually I'm just presenting to you guys that there's another possibility or solution to this riddle.
Quote:
It's pretty much the same as the riddle of the chapel door in Episode 2 : Beato said all those red truths about how one could get in or out of the chapel, but it doesn't mean anything once you notice that the chapel was never confirmed to be locked, anyway.
yeah its similar. But there's a problem in it. If the door of the chapel was never locked, why did rosa took the key from maria's envelop? and the fact that rosa Knew that the key to the chapel is in maria's envelop was also suspicious. don't you think?
unsuspectingvisitor is offline  
Old 2011-10-27, 20:39   Link #3227
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
yeah its similar. But there's a problem in it. If the door of the chapel was never locked, why did rosa took the key from maria's envelop? and the fact that rosa Knew that the key to the chapel is in maria's envelop was also suspicious. don't you think?
It was a ruse.

I've never seen so much weaselworking to get around something so obvious, then gallop over the point using another point that hurts his own argument.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2011-10-27, 22:00   Link #3228
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It was a ruse.

I've never seen so much weaselworking to get around something so obvious, then gallop over the point using another point that hurts his own argument.
I thought the key wasn't needed at all since the door of the chapel wasn't locked to begin with. if that's the cased Rosa was the culprit then.
unsuspectingvisitor is offline  
Old 2011-10-27, 22:58   Link #3229
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
No, it doesn't. It only means she was part of a trick to construct an illusion. At best, it means she was an accomplice, but it by no means implicates her as the culprit.

Hell, if we go with the idea that the first twilight is always meant to be a fake murder mystery game, then all it means is that Rosa is in on the game. Then some sick fuck went in and killed those six people while they were playing dead. This also explains why they only pretended the door was locked; it's a puzzle to the cousins either way, but if it was REALLY locked....well, one of the play-actors might need to go to the bathroom, or there might be an emergency.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 01:50   Link #3230
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
I think i finally gets what happened in Ep5. The sound of the clock was a lie. I noticed that only the narrator was aware of the chime of the clock when they found out about the letter . Even in Natsuhi's cased the narrator was the only one who talked about it.

So with this i'll conclude that the Narrator lied about the chime of the clock so its possible that the knock happened before or even after 12:00(the time that most of the Red truth was heavily focused on)
unsuspectingvisitor is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 02:11   Link #3231
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
It's the Red Truth, and it mentions the time. Time does not change depending on the sound of a clock, it's effected by the turning of the Earth.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 04:27   Link #3232
WitchOfDoubt
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
I had the clock hypothesis, but I dropped it in favor of the "everybody is lying" hypothesis.

That said?

I feel like resurrecting it. It is plausible and even likely!

---

Quote:
Time does not change depending on the sound of a clock, it's effected by the turning of the Earth.
Time zones!

THIS IS CHECKMATE.

Kinzo was obstinate, fond of Western stuff, and intent on running a Western-style mansion. For several years after WWII, Japan used Daylight Savings Time. This ended in 1952, to the relief of many Japanese who did not like rising at dawn or pre-dawn.

Hypothesis: But in Episode 5, we have a sneaky twist. In this game, Kinzo gave the order that the mansion observe DST in the Western manner. In that case, all of the mansion clocks would be ahead an hour. Would the Japanese-style guesthouse clocks be the same? Maybe, maybe not.

--

The tougher problem is this: if we assume that the knock isn't a lie, then we can't go halfway here. We also have to assume that the letter being found isn't a lie. Is it possible to explain both the knock and the letter in a way that makes sense? WHO DID IT? Remember, Erika isn't allowed to lie or have unreliable narration.

If we read Lambda's talk about midnight as a huge misdirection - she was talking about midnight according to sane people, not midnight according to crazy mansion clocks - then we can dodge a lot of the Red Truth. Some of the statements don't directly reference midnight, but can still be beaten by noting that they must refer to a specific time ("no one else existed in the mansion" is a lie otherwise), and that this isn't the first time we've been lied to by omission when it comes to times.

What if Battler arranged for the letter to be found and made the knock? This would be an incredible victory for the Human side! Can you make it work?

uV, I am sure that if you are confident in your theory and pursue it with vigor, a miracle will happen!

(Edited to use the Brown Truth more carefully.)

Last edited by WitchOfDoubt; 2011-11-15 at 05:04.
WitchOfDoubt is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 04:34   Link #3233
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
It's the Red Truth, and it mentions the time. Time does not change depending on the sound of a clock, it's effected by the turning of the Earth.
yeah i know that. I kinda change my theory a bit. i want to say that the Sound of the clock in the hallway never happened during the knock and before Natsuhi entered her room to answer the phone call. The Narrator lied about it.

Well don't you find it suspicious that most of the red truth was focused on the time 24:00.
unsuspectingvisitor is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 04:59   Link #3234
WitchOfDoubt
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Well don't you find it suspicious that most of the red truth was focused on the time 24:00.
See my above post. If the "time zones" theory is correct, that's very suspicious and quite solvable, even with a certain amount of reliable narration.

But the time could also be suspicious in the same way that a rotten herring, laid across a track to throw off the pursuing hounds, is suspicious. That is to say, it could be written to trick you into focusing on the time.

Even so, the time theory wins on elegance, because Episode 5 would not be a fair mystery if everybody lied so much. It is not possible to have a coherent mystery novel where everyone but the detective is a liar and/or the victim and/or the culprit.
WitchOfDoubt is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 05:49   Link #3235
unsuspectingvisitor
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt View Post
See my above post. If the "time zones" theory is correct, that's very suspicious and quite solvable, even with a certain amount of reliable narration.

But the time could also be suspicious in the same way that a rotten herring, laid across a track to throw off the pursuing hounds, is suspicious. That is to say, it could be written to trick you into focusing on the time.

Even so, the time theory wins on elegance, because Episode 5 would not be a fair mystery if everybody lied so much. It is not possible to have a coherent mystery novel where everyone but the detective is a liar and/or the victim and/or the culprit.
Nice i didn't really thought about that. That's very possible. Its similar to what i said in my past post.
I think George did the knock thing since he have a watch of his own. He can just adjust his watch to make it the same as the clock in the mansion.
unsuspectingvisitor is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 06:32   Link #3236
WitchOfDoubt
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Yes, and perhaps George knew of Shannon's love of mystery novels and schemed with her to set this up. This was the 'trick' George foreshadowed earlier in the Episode.
WitchOfDoubt is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 09:07   Link #3237
rogerpepitone
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Send a message via Yahoo to rogerpepitone
Quote:
Originally Posted by WitchOfDoubt View Post
It is not possible to have a coherent mystery novel where everyone but the detective is a liar and/or the victim and/or the culprit.
Agatha Christie came very close to doing it. (Expand "the detective" to include his direct assistants and she did.)
rogerpepitone is offline  
Old 2011-11-15, 14:09   Link #3238
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
Quote:
Time zones!
Still affected by the turning of the Earth.

Quote:
Kinzo was obstinate, fond of Western stuff, and intent on running a Western-style mansion. For several years after WWII, Japan used Daylight Savings Time. This ended in 1952, to the relief of many Japanese who did not like rising at dawn or pre-dawn.

Hypothesis: But in Episode 5, we have a sneaky twist. In this game, Kinzo gave the order that the mansion observe DST in the Western manner. In that case, all of the mansion clocks would be ahead an hour. Would the Japanese-style guesthouse clocks be the same? Maybe, maybe not.
Despite the Western affectations throughout the mansion, Kinzo and his children lived a very traditionally Japanese-style life. It is therefore extremely unlikely that they would observe any time differences besides what Japan normally does, and if Battler didn't comment on it, Erika would have.

Quote:
The tougher problem is this: if we assume that the knock isn't a lie, then we can't go halfway here. We also have to assume that the letter being found isn't a lie. Is it possible to explain both the knock and the letter in a way that makes sense? WHO DID IT? Remember, Erika isn't allowed to lie or have unreliable narration.
Have you read Forgery No.XXX? It pretty much comes right out and says that the knock and letter are lies.

Also wtf is Brown Truth?

Quote:
Well don't you find it suspicious that most of the red truth was focused on the time 24:00.
No, why should I?

Quote:
because Episode 5 would not be a fair mystery if everybody lied so much. It is not possible to have a coherent mystery novel where everyone but the detective is a liar and/or the victim and/or the culprit.
You don't read a lot of mystery novels, Ones such as you describe happen all the time, and are treated as sufficiently fair. Even if it wasn't, Ryukishi has already broken multiple rules of fairness with Umineko, to say nothing of Lambdadelta and Bernkastel not giving a damn about Fairness.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Old 2011-11-16, 02:18   Link #3239
WitchOfDoubt
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Quote:
Agatha Christie came very close to doing it. (Expand "the detective" to include his direct assistants and she did.)
Oh, I remember that one! Was it...

Spoiler for Novel:


Quote:
Despite the Western affectations throughout the mansion, Kinzo and his children lived a very traditionally Japanese-style life. It is therefore extremely unlikely that they would observe any time differences besides what Japan normally does, and if Battler didn't comment on it, Erika would have.
It becomes more likely when you realize that adopting DST would also allow Kinzo to force the servants to rise earlier. As the island is separated from the rest of the world, they really could manage to maintain a different schedule.

Erika also fails to comment on the other solution to the knock-and-letter problem. This is not strong evidence against it, in context. And if Battler is the culprit, well!


In any case, if the DST theory is at all plausible, it is an avenue of attack. The real challenge for a "knock existed" reader lies in explaining what appears to be impossible - that a human made that knock. This is a game between uv and I, who both support the knock-existed theory, and those who would declare so many characters to be liars!

Quote:
You don't read a lot of mystery novels, Ones such as you describe happen all the time, and are treated as sufficiently fair. Even if it wasn't, Ryukishi has already broken multiple rules of fairness with Umineko, to say nothing of Lambdadelta and Bernkastel not giving a damn about Fairness.
Oops. I will not make silly assumptions and generalizations in the future.

Quote:
Have you read Forgery No.XXX? It pretty much comes right out and says that the knock and letter are lies.
... Do I need to point out problem with this reasoning?

Quote:
Also wtf is Brown Truth?
* It is the Brown Truth, not the Brown Truth. This is a relevant distinction.

* Just as the Blue Truth is not always written in blue, the Brown Truth is not always written in brown.

* This argument is a torture that will not end until a certain person fully understands the Brown Truth.

* To those who do not recognize the Brown Truth, Umineko will forever remain a maddening and impossible mystery.

Now, I mentioned a scene with George in it earlier. This was the scene where he hinted that he was going to play some sort of trick on the family at Shannon's request. I don't remember exactly when it happened, so could somebody please post this scene's dialogue, preferably confirming it with the Brown Truth?
WitchOfDoubt is offline  
Old 2011-11-16, 03:04   Link #3240
AuraTwilight
The True Culprit
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The Golden Land
Send a message via AIM to AuraTwilight Send a message via MSN to AuraTwilight
We could if we knew what the hell the Brown Truth meant. There's no point using it to signify anything if you're the only person using or comprehending it.
__________________
When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531
AuraTwilight is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.