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Old 2009-08-20, 16:56   Link #321
Squirrellord
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Exactly, it was never actually clear that they were separate entities entirely until 5 here. In 2 we could assume that Beatrice is merely in the game herself. It's never said that the one on the board is acting independently of the one in the Metaworld, and it actually seems more like the one in the Metaworld *is* the one on the board for the most part. In 3, we could have said it was a trick by Beatrice to feign losing power. It was never said that what happens to the Beatrice on the board is only happening to the on the board one. It was only in 4 that we started to be told that they were different, and then 5 just confirmed that completely.
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Old 2009-08-20, 16:59   Link #322
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Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
"Lol that was a metaphor or allegory, X never really happened" just ruins a work of fiction, IMO.
Well, that's already been done in Umineko. Remember the battle between Beato and Virgilia? Not only that, but EP4 made it look as if magic was nothing but people's imagination/delusions.
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:00   Link #323
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I wasn't precisely asking about that, but about what exactly the Meta-world is. chronotrig said EP5 shed some new information about what that place is.
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I mean, is it some supernatural world we're just supposed to accept, or is it some sort of allegory?
Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:


Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth"...or at least many areas that must practically be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:04   Link #324
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Well, that's already been done in Umineko. Remember the battle between Beato and Virgilia? Not only that, but EP4 made it look as if magic was nothing but people's imagination/delusions.
I know that, but it is slightly different from what I'm talking about. Doing this to the meta world would basically be saying "All this character development, conflict, etc, never happened, since it was just a dramatization of someone's thought process."

It isn't like the Magic Vs Mystery conflict, where even if it is just a metaphor, we can still take something from it. I just don't see what we could take from "This is all a dramatization of character X deciding magic does/doesn't exist".

I might be explaining myself poorly, sorry. ;(
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:09   Link #325
Used Can
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No, I do get what you meant. I think the same.
The Meta-world seems to have its own plot aside from the mystery one. It'd be quite sad if it was nothing but an allegory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:


Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth"...or at least many areas that must be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.
Ah, I see. Thanks.
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:20   Link #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:


Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth", or at least many things that must be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.
Spoiler for meta again:
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Old 2009-08-20, 17:40   Link #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:
That is a very nice theory supported by a lot of facts.

My theory is that the real world is the first game. Games 2 through 4 are gameboards where Beatrice is training Battler's mind and is trying to show Battler the truth (probably related to what is sin is). When she realizes that he has no recollection of the sin the purpose of the games is lost.

Game 5 appears to have a non-magic world story line, a magic world story line, and a meta world story line. In the meta world Bernkastel and Lambdadelta take over playing on the new gamebaord without Beatrice. Will Battler still be able to find the truth without Beatrice's help?
/theory
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Old 2009-08-20, 19:13   Link #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Okay, here's my big theory on the Meta-world/game board. I think it's strongly supported by evidence from EP5, but it's still only speculation.

Spoiler for meta:


Some people may be tempted to say that there is no "real truth" in this game, but the fact that the Game Masters can speak in red without any evidence seems to point to there being a "real truth"...or at least many areas that must practically be falsehoods no matter how the battle in the Meta world turns out.
Yeah, this is the theory that I've been having ever since Episode 4. When I heard about Maria's letters, it occurred to me that nobody really knew what went on in that island. The letters were most likely descriptions of Episode 1 and 2 gameboards, but nobody has been able to confirm that what happened in those letters were really what happened. That line of reasoning led me to come to the theory I wrote here.

Last edited by Archer; 2009-08-20 at 19:24.
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Old 2009-08-20, 19:50   Link #329
Used Can
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The only problem I see here is that those bottles were found in a 1998 which follows the evnts after EP3. So, if we're going to trust the existence of those bottles, we'd have to assume the existence of that future. However, we've got EP5, in which a bunch of people survive. It wouldn't make much sense if a story in which the residents of the island survive was written.

Not only that, but in EP5, the possibility of ending the whole thing without the murders ever taking place was stated. Meaning that yet another future would be created.
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Old 2009-08-20, 19:55   Link #330
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Or everybody could have died, right?
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:05   Link #331
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Or everybody could have died, right?
Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:08   Link #332
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Are you sure? Is that in red?
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:15   Link #333
Marion
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Are you sure? Is that in red?
Not the point. At the end of the episode when you go to tips you can only execute those 7 mentioned. Everybody else can't be executed, which implies they went off the island alive.
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:16   Link #334
marebito
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Are you sure? Is that in red?
Nope. And if I recall that correctly the credits only mentioned that the other characters survived while the game was still in progress. No statements are made concerning anything after 10/05.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
At the end of the episode when you go to tips you can only execute those 7 mentioned. Everybody else can't be executed, which implies they went off the island alive.
I don't know whether this fact really implies that they survived the whole thing... To me it seemed like the game was finished and summed up earlier than the previous games. We do see the clock that points at 12, though...
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:21   Link #335
Marion
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I don't know whether this fact really implies that they survived the whole thing... To me it seemed like the game was finished and summed up earlier than the previous games. We do see the clock that points at 12, though...
In EP 3 Eva couldn't be executed in TIPs and we even see her off the island. If we didn't have that ??? we wouldn't know if she survived or not by that logic.

Personally I believe that, excluding the 7 that did die, the others got off the island well and good, since no murders were committed after Hideyoshi was killed.
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:55   Link #336
MeoTwister5
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It's 10am here and it's back to Umineko lol.

Spoiler for E5 Summaries much?:
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:56   Link #337
Kets
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Why were there seven, as opposed to six?
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:59   Link #338
MeoTwister5
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The murders don't seem to follow the epitaph anymore, more likely due to Lambda's control.
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Old 2009-08-20, 20:59   Link #339
Marion
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Why were there seven, as opposed to six?
Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-08-20, 21:05   Link #340
marebito
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
In EP 3 Eva couldn't be executed in TIPs and we even see her off the island. If we didn't have that ??? we wouldn't know if she survived or not by that logic.

Personally I believe that, excluding the 7 that did die, the others got off the island well and good, since no murders were committed after Hideyoshi was killed.
Didn't the game advance until the last moment of 10/05 in EP3? Then I see a difference there. Sure if we consider the clock alone this was the same in EP5 but I'm not so sure about that since it's such a seemingly significant deviation apart from that.

On the other hand your point is also a logical conclusion. After Natsuhi's accusation the characters stay as a group and keep an eye on Natsuhi until 10/06 and from then on the possibility of Natsuhi as culprit becomes 'the truth' for that kakera.
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