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Old 2013-08-07, 14:40   Link #3401
AuraTwilight
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Wait is that Meta-Beatrice or balcony Beatrice? The way you said it implies that balcony Beatrice also isn't the person Battler wronged.
Maybe that's exactly what I'm saying. Are Balcony-Beatrice and Meta-Beatrice even different people?
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Old 2013-08-07, 14:44   Link #3402
Sauzer
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edit: ok

Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Maybe that's exactly what I'm saying. Are Balcony-Beatrice and Meta-Beatrice even different people?
Well they kinda should be, since balcony Beatrice is present in the human world and talks with human Battler and thus is "real", while Meta-Beatrice is... some kind of a fickle magical being...
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Old 2013-08-07, 15:19   Link #3403
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But Battler and Meta-Battler are basically the same person, right? Why can't it be the same way for Beatrice? Meta-Beatrice hasn't proved she's a witch any more than any other Beatrice.
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Old 2013-08-07, 15:29   Link #3404
Sauzer
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
But Battler and Meta-Battler are basically the same person, right? Why can't it be the same way for Beatrice? Meta-Beatrice hasn't proved she's a witch any more than any other Beatrice.
Well what I'm trying to say is that on the balcony the person who talks to Battler must be a non-magical human. And one of the 17 on the island. Wether they nicknamed themselves as Beatrice or not doesn't matter. So Meta-Beatrice can be the representation of that human, sure (like Virgilia to Kumasawa).

What I was trying to say is that considering how much red truths are usually a way to decieve Battler, then the red truth "The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice " can just mean the Beatrice that died in 1967. Of course the sin has nothing to do with that Beatrice because she's long dead and Battler wasn't even born. And it doesn't have to mean the "Beatrice" on the balcony since at the end of the day that's just one of the 17 humans talking to Battler, who's pretending to be Beatrice.

Not sure if I can describe my thinking in any way more detailed.
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Old 2013-08-07, 15:48   Link #3405
GreyZone
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Try to look at it this way: Before those 2 days, 4th and 5th October in 1986, Battler never met someone with the name Beatrice... probably. So of course he could not do any "sin" against her, as he saw that person on the balcony for the first time. Even if someone is just "dressing up" or "under a disguise", from his perspective, that person on the balcony is someone unknown and that is what is important. We know that there is no 18th person, so of course it must be someone from the known cast.

Oh and to keep you thinking about things, I just remembered a little mystery that you may have forgotten:

What happened to the old shrine?
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Old 2013-08-07, 19:26   Link #3406
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Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
if noone can mistake Kinzo no matter what, then (just like this ep) Battler loses all credibility in ep2 and becomes a suspect, making a murderous trio with Rosa and Maria. Though by that logic it would also violate quite a few Knox's rules about him being a detective at the time and hints from supernatural forces and clues not in evidence etc.
Unlike the Kinzo vision in EP5, that scene in EP2 wasn't narrated by Battler. In fact, it's the only scene of the first 5 EPs that Battler is present in but does not narrate. In other words, it's not the detective "reporting" that scene so the detective rules don't apply.
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Old 2013-08-08, 08:12   Link #3407
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I always assumed that Battler loses his Detective "status" or whatever when the clock strikes 12.
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Old 2013-08-08, 11:29   Link #3408
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Probably, but in EP2 Battler was seeing things he shouldn't have been even before that.
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Old 2013-08-09, 00:41   Link #3409
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Sauzer, you're probably knee deep in EP6 by now, but... hm.

You're being a far kinder reader than I'd say is necessary. Motive is important, yeah, but it's equally futile to disregard who- and how-dunnit, lest you end up with small bombs and triangular-face-shooting theories. The trial in EP5 isn't exactly the fairest thing, but it's not as though Erika's reasonings were baseless or wrong, just ... dickish.

Well, they were wrong, but hey, so is Battlers. Probably.
If anything, the blame for what happened there is solely on Lambdadelta, who by and large refused to defend her tale. She KNOWS Erika's theory is wrong, but allows it to "win" because she finds it lulzy or something, instead of just denying it in red at some point.
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Old 2013-08-09, 05:18   Link #3410
Sauzer
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Sauzer, you're probably knee deep in EP6 by now, but... hm.

You're being a far kinder reader than I'd say is necessary. Motive is important, yeah, but it's equally futile to disregard who- and how-dunnit, lest you end up with small bombs and triangular-face-shooting theories. The trial in EP5 isn't exactly the fairest thing, but it's not as though Erika's reasonings were baseless or wrong, just ... dickish.

Well, they were wrong, but hey, so is Battlers. Probably.
If anything, the blame for what happened there is solely on Lambdadelta, who by and large refused to defend her tale. She KNOWS Erika's theory is wrong, but allows it to "win" because she finds it lulzy or something, instead of just denying it in red at some point.
Yeah, did start it, no killings yet tho.
Spoiler for very minorish ep6:


It's just that while I think Shannon could be a possible culprit, there are no clues that she's capable of mass murder. Smashing the mirror seems to be the only bad thing she did.
Only way that theory works is if all the scenes of her love for George turn out to be BS. Of course there were already pure BS scenes *cough*Kinzo*cough* and there are no witnesses to the yearly "arbor ring giving". And yet there seems to be an interview with Ryukashi confirming all romances as genuine or something like that.

Hm.. now that I think about it - Shannon was alive for quite some time in ep2. Did anyone actually notice the ring? She accepted in instantly and put on her finger, and yet I don't remember it being mentioned at all later.

If anything the more I find about people the less all of them seem to be capable of mass murder.

Natsuhi is out.
Krauss actually turns out to not have any guts, so he's out.
Eva is... well I'm sure she did kill Rosa and Maria, but as for others... especially George and Hideyoshi.
Rudolf... what little is known of him gives him a tonn of motive. He is a womanizing bastard, but is he a murderous one?
Rosa seems to be unstable enough to commit a mass murder.. No, more like she seems capable of commiting a crime of passion not a continued series of pre-planned methodical killings.
Jessica is prone to ragy outbursts and she did go quite badass in ep4 casting aside her "maiden" self. But killing her own parents? nu-huh

If anyone it's the people who still havent been focused on that become the most suspicious. Like Nanjo, Kumasawa and Genji. With Kinzo being dead Nanjo's sole purpose seems to be sit there lying and collecting bribe money.

And Kyrie is the only one who rises in suspicion with each episode revealing more of her cunning and ... ruthlessness as Rudolf pointed out.
"Turn around and sing a song for me while I kill them" seems something like Kyrie or Eva would say.
And yet she confirm-dies every time and two times at 1st twilight in ep1 and ep2. It could be that she plots murder but ep3 and maybe ep4 is the only time where she gets to do anything before getting murdered herself?
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Old 2013-08-09, 05:41   Link #3411
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When you finish EP6, I recommend you NOT to read the posts that are in the EP6 thread right now, because they already have a lot of theorizing that you should under any case avoid, as they could spoiler you.
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Old 2013-08-10, 07:08   Link #3412
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Well, that's part of what I mean when I say your reasoning is really kind.

Sure, all of the 18 people kind of ARE decent people (except for Kinzo, who's a huge jerkass, but he's dead so who cares) but there is a 100% chance that one of those otherwise decent people is murdering people like there's no tomorrow. It's why Battler had such a hard time with EP2, even though it's probably the most straightforward gameboard ; he literally refused accuse anyone besides 19th Person X, even long after that idea stopped making any kind of real sense.
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Old 2013-08-10, 12:25   Link #3413
Sauzer
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Originally Posted by Kealym View Post
Well, that's part of what I mean when I say your reasoning is really kind.

Sure, all of the 18 people kind of ARE decent people (except for Kinzo, who's a huge jerkass, but he's dead so who cares) but there is a 100% chance that one of those otherwise decent people is murdering people like there's no tomorrow. It's why Battler had such a hard time with EP2, even though it's probably the most straightforward gameboard ; he literally refused accuse anyone besides 19th Person X, even long after that idea stopped making any kind of real sense.
which is kind of funny, because in ep2 I was practicly screaming at Battler "you idiot! Ofc one of them is a killer! Stop whining and start accusing!". And now look at me

But yeah there are actually three "why"s I have to consider - motive, willpower and mental ability to continue a series of methodical murders (instead of just crimes of passion) against everyone. And as the eps went along I started dismissing people one after another.

So now because of what has or hasn't yet been revieled about the 18 people I'm left with quite a few options of who could have all three "why"s:
Hideyoshi, George, Rudolf, Kyrie, Battler, Rosa, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Genji, Kanon, Gohda.

In fact at the moment for me only Kyrie passes all there three "why"s with flying colours.

As for the rest not on the list, I just don't see them coming to the island thinking "yeah, I might have to kill 'em all". Because such a mass murder is clearly pre-planned. Even if considering a possibility of a crime of passion which leads into "oh, well, can't stop now - might as well kill everyone".

Even if one or two might die on their own or in an accident. However 1-2 is the most. There is no way in seven hells there can be such a coincidence that 6+ people die in unrelated homicides/accidents/sicknessess/suicides all in the span of two days.
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Old 2013-08-10, 21:15   Link #3414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauzer View Post
But yeah there are actually three "why"s I have to consider - motive, willpower and mental ability to continue a series of methodical murders (instead of just crimes of passion) against everyone. And as the eps went along I started dismissing people one after another.
You should also consider the elements not directly related to the murders themselves to filter through the noise that is created around it.
What did you learn from Ange's journey to Rokkenjima in 1998?
Why were the message bottles created?
Do the fantasy stories and events tell us something or are they merely noise?

Last edited by haguruma; 2013-08-10 at 23:05.
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