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Old 2009-08-25, 09:07   Link #441
MeoTwister5
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Oh shit thank you Klash for destroying my happy state of denial. Looks like I won't be sleeping in peace later tonight.

I sort of accepted her behavior but Bern is now on my Complete Bitch List.

Summary time! This summary could otherwise be entitled "The Breaking of Ushiromiya Natsuhi."

Spoiler for Ep5 Summary:


Spoiler for Red Text:


Spoiler for Blue Text:


Yep, you read that Blue Text right. May god have mercy on us all.

Edit - BTW this is not the end of Ep5 proper yet. I'm thinking there's only a little bit more ways to go before it ends. Also, no news on the real status of MetaBattler, and I'm assuming we won't know of his true fate until the end of Ep5 proper.

Last edited by MeoTwister5; 2009-08-25 at 09:59.
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Old 2009-08-25, 10:08   Link #442
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*almost barfs* That's kinda creepy if I do say so myself.

Spoiler for EP5:
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Old 2009-08-25, 10:09   Link #443
kagato3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
1) Cornelia just repeats the red confirmed by Bern. Therefore, Cornerla just had to remind Beato's rule that "red" is always the truth.
This isn't an evidence provided by Erika, but rather by Bern.
The thing is no one ever sees Krauss corpse meaning that the only way Erika has to prove he is dead is through a supernatural source. That violates Knox article 2 since she is the detective. Until she can prove Krauss is dead through a non-supernatural source he still has no albi.
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Old 2009-08-25, 10:19   Link #444
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That wasn't proved by Erika. Like I said, it was Bern's doing, which Erika can use afterwards in the trial.
Witches aren't restricted by knox commandements and can give red if needed by their respective party. Natsuhi refused to push the guilt on Krauss and Bern took this opportunity to confirm and crush her at the same time: Krauss was killed right after the phone call.

Again, none of Erika or her furniture exposed that, but since Bern confirmed it already, they can use it.
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Old 2009-08-25, 11:31   Link #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
One long summary from me today, but a freaking fast-paced one with a... shocking cliffhanger twist. I may or may not have shit myself seeing it.

Spoiler for Ep5 MAJOR Summary:

Can anyone tell me the name of song used in this part of summary?

Last edited by Marina2; 2009-08-25 at 11:46.
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Old 2009-08-25, 11:32   Link #446
kagato3
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The fact that it was Bern confirmed it and none of Erika or her furniture exposed makes it violate Knox article 2. Bern is a supernatural source and the whole trial was brought up because Erika claims Natsuhi is the only one that has no albi. Until Erika has a way to prove that Krauss doesn't have an albi, nor does Kinzo since she had been unable to prove his state of health this is untrue. So she is useing the red text to confrim her hunch this means she is breaking rule 6 (No accident must ever help the detective, nor must he ever have an unaccountable intuition which proves to be right) or 2 (no supernatural source). The red can only be used as a validated truth; it cannot be used as a method to ascertain said truth via an investigation to validate itself. Therefore, a truth exists only in it's complete and validated form. It must have been validated by some other, none-red means.
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Old 2009-08-25, 12:25   Link #447
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Huh no, absolutely not.
The red can be used as a rogue "supernatural" assertion without any need for proof regarding witches.
It is from the very same premise that Beato can confirm things against Erika (there is no way Erika could figure out that none of Krauss, Natsuhi or Genji were related to the knock) or Lambda confirming all ingots are for real.

The thing is that confirming Krauss' death doesn't help Erika one bit because:
1) she doesn't even consider Krauss as a possible candidate, unlike kinzo.
2) Natsuhi claims he is definitely not the culprit, despite she could switch the guilt on him.

The witches are out of the loop regarding the knox rules. That is what Lambda and Bern said when Battler used "Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!". A red must have proof to back up its value when a human uses it. But for witch, they simply don't need to give any proof.

The trial was made unfair to begin with.
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Old 2009-08-25, 13:00   Link #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The thing is that confirming Krauss' death doesn't help Erika one bit because:
1) she doesn't even consider Krauss as a possible candidate, unlike kinzo.
2) Natsuhi claims he is definitely not the culprit, despite she could switch the guilt on him.
This is false. The confirmation of Krauss's death was used to elimnate the sixth bulleted item:
屋敷の蔵臼にも犯行が可能ではないか?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
The witches are out of the loop regarding the knox rules. That is what Lambda and Bern said when Battler used "Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!". A red must have proof to back up its value when a human uses it. But for witch, they simply don't need to give any proof.

The trial was made unfair to begin with.
I agree on this. A supernatural agent, such as a witch, can act as a truth confirmer AFTER the facts have been presented.

Don't you think it's absolutely ridiculous the way Erika behaves less than a day after falling off a boat? How can anyone claim her behavior is normal? You can try to justify her hunches by saying she is just a great detective or possesses a superior intelect but that is just not common sense.
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Old 2009-08-25, 13:28   Link #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
This is false. The confirmation of Krauss's death was used to elimnate the sixth bulleted item:
屋敷の蔵臼にも犯行が可能ではないか?
That's right, but like I said, Lambda and Bern let Natsuhi and Beatrice decide for the possibility regarding Krauss being the culprit. Of course, Beatrice was cornered because she wants to safeguard Natsuhi, but the latter cannot let Krauss being branded as a murderer.
And when Natsuhi declared she cannot do that and that Beatrice follows her lead, we got this confirmation, then Bern smashes her with "that's right, Ushiromiya Krauss cannot be the culprit. He was killed right after the phone call, you see?"
Natsuhi collapses in sorrow afterwards.

I'm pretty sure it happened like this, unless my memories fizzled that bad.

Quote:
Don't you think it's absolutely ridiculous the way Erika behaves less than a day after falling off a boat? How can anyone claim her behavior is normal? You can try to justify her hunches by saying she is just a great detective or possesses a superior intelect but that is just not common sense.
I do as well, but it is still "possible". Of course, that a 15-16 years old detective being washed out on Rokkenjima is way too convenient.
But that's the basic concept of Lambda and Bern highjacking the gameboard. To begin with, it is ridiculous for adults like the Ushiromiya to let a little girl roaming that freely after the crimes. Her detective status was guaranted for the meta world with the red truth, but that's another story for the gameboard.

Erika is simple a rogue piece that works in Beato's game within the very extreme limits. It is purely for sake of disrupting the game, not to stay "faithful" to Beato's game.
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Old 2009-08-25, 13:43   Link #450
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I think I found the origines of Gertrude and maybe Cornellia but I'm not very sure...

Last edited by Antera Caramichael; 2009-08-25 at 13:56.
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Old 2009-08-25, 13:58   Link #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Huh no, absolutely not.
The witches are out of the loop regarding the knox rules. That is what Lambda and Bern said when Battler used "Ushiromiya Natsuhi is not the culprit!". A red must have proof to back up its value when a human uses it. But for witch, they simply don't need to give any proof.
Unless, of course, that's a lie. Not having the red perfectly translated makes it hard to guess, but is any of the red actually directly self-contradictory?

Erika seems to be saying, with the help of red, "Natsuhi has no alibi and everyone else has one;" from there, she's making the assertion that Natsuhi is the killer.

Battler says, in red, that Natsuhi isn't a criminal. But technically those two lines of red don't contradict each other; Bern's side is making an approach on Natsuhi as the culprit, and Battler has stated she isn't the culprit. That doesn't mean the red is contradictory; it means the reasoning following from Bern/Erika's red is wrong.

I think all this trial and Knox nonsense is being used as a smokescreen. Red has to be backed up or it isn't true? Who says? Beatrice never said that. Oh, only when humans use it? What about Battler and Ange in ep4?

Yeah, sorry, not buying it. So far as I can tell red is red, and so far I haven't seen anything in these summaries that convinces me otherwise. All the evidence points to Natsuhi, but she didn't do it. Unless there's red text that is, in fact, directly contradictory, I don't buy these "extra rules."

EDIT: Oh and in ep4, Battler tried to say something in red that wasn't true and couldn't. Beatrice (maybe) tried to do the same and likewise failed. You can't say something in red if it isn't true. Even if it isn't "valid" for the purpose of Lambda's kangaroo court, it's true.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:05   Link #452
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All the extra rules wouldn't make any sense if they weren't red themselves, but they were.
In a way, you can expect it to be already deviant since it was Lambda and Bern asking for them, not Beato.

Even Battler himself was taken aback by his unability to smash Erika's assertion despite the red truth doesn't need any proof by itself.
Consequently, it was rather a "sub-game" with non explicit restriction in order to bring up a anti fantasy theory to the "court".
By itself, the previous games didn't need any court format at all: beato and battler were just arguing case by case.

You would generally brush off Lambda and Bern excuses if they were applied to the other games, but Episode 5 didn't have the same premises at all. So it was working on a anti fantasy premise from start to finish, with the introduced restrictions: Knox Commandements. In a way, these are rules that were forcefully introduced, a bit like Beato claiming "only Ushiromiya Battler can take part of my game", despite there was nothing that was setting this in stone.
This is why Episode 5 is so different to actually give another ground for theories and the like. Thus, Mystery VS Anti Fantasy.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:07   Link #453
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But don't Knox's rules apply only to "the detective?" I thought Erika was the detective. I thought that was said in red.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:10   Link #454
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No, all commandements applied to the game (such like N°1 etc).
Certainly, many of them are exclusively applied to the detective, but the wording is different for some of them. Again, you cannot use the original commandements, since Ryukishi tailored them as he sees fit.

Commandement 8 doesn't involve the detective's conclusion. It is general:
提示されない手がかりでの解決を禁ず。
The solution provided without any clue/proof is prohibited.

It is NOT only applied to the detective, but it is a general rule.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:12   Link #455
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Still not buying it. There's a gaping hole somewhere in this process and I'm sure I could find it if I could understand the text itself. Working from a summary isn't getting anywhere. Then again, maybe Battler will show his worth later in the episode and find it for me? Either way, I don't buy it and I'm perfectly willing to consider Battler's red true even if it isn't allowed in the "trial."

Like, they say his solution is "prohibited," but that's meaningless. A solution can be true without being "permissible." It's basically the same thing as excluding evidence. If a drug trial turns on whether drugs were found, but the drugs were illegally seized and got excluded from evidence, then there aren't any drugs to present. That doesn't change the truth that there were drugs, it just makes it inadmissible to claim they exist or show them.

So it's true but not allowed. That doesn't make it untrue.

EDIT: A better example might be if I interview a witness and he tells me another person did it, but when I want to call that witness to testify at trial, he refuses to testify. I know another person did it (assuming the witness was credible or had some reliable explanation), but I can't raise that claim at trial because I don't have a witness to call.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:15   Link #456
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I never said it was "not true", I said: he was unable to use it to turn the tide of the trial, because he had to go through the 8th commandement: the solution provided without any clue/proof is forbidden.
Battler is a player and a human piece. As a human, he cannot rely on supernatural means and must provide evidence, even if he could use something that "should not need" any. Because of his status at that given time, he was unable to do anything.

Bern and Lambda didn't deny his red truth, but stated it cannot be accepted unless he CAN supplement it with proofs.
That's the issue with Knox 8 which isn't affecting the witches. This is also why Gaap and the 7 sisters' red aren't denied, since they are in the witch's side. And when Battler used the golden truth, it just break knox 8.

This is just like this.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:15   Link #457
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I don't see much of a problem with the use of the red. Bern's side never made a claim in red like "Natsuhi is the culprit". Erika did base most of her theories and statements with evidence. So, I can see why Battler's use of the red was denied. He was effectively cornered by Erika by pure deduction and logic, him using the red that way would have been completely unfair, after his own logic had failed.

Anyway, I'll try reposting my previous question again:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Anyway, a friend of mine sent me a quote that, according to him, was used in this episode:
Spoiler:

Was it actually used? If it was, when was it used?
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:19   Link #458
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But doesn't knowing that Natsuhi isn't the culprit rather derail the inevitable end of the trial? They'll never be able to say in red that she is the culprit. At best they'll be able to make a claim. If Lambda were "playing fair" like Beatrice, she'd have to get a blue presented by Bern or Erika and then shoot it down (or confirm it) in red. She's not going to be able to do that, because Natsuhi is innocent. So what's the point of continuing the trial to begin with besides torturing Natsuhi? It's going to end with as vague a conclusion as a real-world investigation and trial of Natsuhi would. It might "convict" her, but it isn't going to prove anything.

Spoiler for Battler's Motive at the End:


EDIT: And also I'm pretty sure you don't even need Battler's red to confirm Natsuhi's innocence, although I'd wait on the translation of a couple lines to say that for certain.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:23   Link #459
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But doesn't knowing that Natsuhi isn't the culprit rather derail the inevitable end of the trial?
I think, perhaps, it'd be better if you think of it as a maths problem in a test. You may write the correct answer, but if you've skipped the process and you just wrote the answer, you're not getting a passing grade.

If you take the trial into account, all of Battler's theories were proved wrong, whereas Erika's were proved right. He was effectively defeteated in a battle of detectives. Him using the red like that was no longer part of a battle between detectives. He should have shown how he got to that.
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Old 2009-08-25, 14:23   Link #460
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... That's why I said from the VERY beginning the trial was unfair, but subject to consistent rules.
From the beginning, they didn't go through the usual "red VS blue" thing like how it happened in Episode 4.
Lambda's reason for this is absolutely not possible to confirm, you can wild guess it as a personal agenda, but that's it. Bern might have as well a double agenda, but as shown during the game, she just wanted to end it quickly regardless if the truth asserted by Erika was really the truth, or just an interpretation of the evidences that cannot be countered unless someone else provide an equivalent truth.

This is why I explained why Battler was stuck for this element. I really don't get your point Renall. Really.

EDIT: using Used Can interpretation, it is also something that the witches wouldn't want to happen: if everything could be swiped with the red, then it would be finished right from the open without an actual "entertaintement". As they became "real" player, they added extra rules in order not to bike themselves with the easy way.
In the previous games, Battler was not on an even footing but could go around the red truth. But Between lambda and bern, it is not the case, so extra rules should be added in order not to leave things totally out of control.
If there wasn't any court system, Bern would just smash Lambda easily being a witch.
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