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Old 2009-08-28, 03:29   Link #501
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Tjfarmer View Post
Hmmm, I think the red text just says that he is Kinzo's grandson. But I have a tendency to forget red-text.
I'm pretty sure that's all it was, yeah.

...Which means he could just as easily be the child of Krauss, Eva, or Rosa.

In any case, Ep6 should probably delve more into this. It's way too important.
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Old 2009-08-28, 03:39   Link #502
Renall
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Ange said in red she was his sister. Unless there's some semantic trickery there (and that makes no sense, as Battler couldn't say Asumu was his mother even though she raised him), that means at least one of Rudolf or Kyrie is a shared parent between them.

And if his mother is Kyrie, then his father must be someone who is Kinzo's son, or he can't be Kinzo's grandson. That doesn't necessarily mean, of course, that his father has to be Rudolf or Krauss...
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Old 2009-08-28, 03:44   Link #503
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If Ange is his sister, doesn't that mean Kyrie is his mom? If Rudolf had Battler with Woman X, those two ought to be half-siblings, ya?
Unless it technically counts as sister, of course.

Technically, any sort of Ushiromiya male is a possible daddy then.
Unless technically Kinzo's grandson was thought of in the sense that he shares the Ushiromiya name and is grandson that way...but that's doesn't seem right?

Spoiler for EP4 End:
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Old 2009-08-28, 03:49   Link #504
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I will say I'm 90% sure that Battler is not Kyrie's son.
Rudolf knows the story, Kyrie doesn't. Kyrie believes Asumu is Battler's biological mother as shown in episode2.
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Old 2009-08-28, 03:53   Link #505
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But that dialogue happened during a magical scene, therefore is it plausible to say it's possibly a fake lead?
Or is that just me being silly?

Also, didn't EP4 say about Rudolf knowing about Battler's situation/sin and it revolving around the inheritance? Or was that someone's theory?

Last edited by Littledgn; 2009-08-28 at 04:09.
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Old 2009-08-28, 04:14   Link #506
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For once, where the hell she got that magic tape? Are you telling me that despite the fact that she feel off from a pleasure boat with her swimsuit she inexplicably didn't forget to bring the tape with her? Quite convenient.
She devised the "door seal" with Eva. Which means: it is possible that Erika says the paper seal wasn't good enough and after pondering together, they found the solution. I really doubt there isn't any tape in the mansion.

Quote:
And wtf with the her "spider" abilities that let her place the tape on evey windows of that huge guesthouse? And why she didn't do that to the mansion as well? How did she know the crime was going to happen in the guesthouse and genji's room? Why only genji's room? why not natsuhi's?
We don't know the structure of the guesthouse, and "huge" is to the author's discretion. Now, considering she was staying at the guesthouse, it is only logical she doesn't have the time for the mansion, so it was Eva who took care of it.
However, there is no guarantee that Eva didn't pulls things so Natsuhi could be framed. Regardless if Erika was aiming for Natsuhi from the beginning or not, it is clear Eva would regardless do things to crush Natsuhi and Krauss.
The fact Erika didn't mention other possible seals doesn't mean there wasn't any more.

Quote:
And how the hell she persuaded Eva? What was the excuse? How come this little girl who came from nowhere can boss around in Rokkenjima?
Erika proved quite early that she has a lot of deduction skills before and after the epitaph segment. As shown before, Eva does show respect to that when it was about Kyrie. In this point, even Eva says she would gladly give a portion to Erika if she resolve it.
The fact Erika didn't take the whole inheritance was most probably another factor that gained Eva's trust.
Also, it isn't hard to expect a murder in this kind of situation: the ones who are the most in danger in this case are obviously Krauss and Natsuhi. Therefore if Erika mentions they can prevent these 2 to do anything, Eva would gladly help, especially she believes that Kinzo is dead already.

Quote:
And the epitaph? 80% of the times she just said "guddo, you think exactly as I do", oh yeah?! It's easy to say so when someone else already said everything. Now I guess this is a devil's proof but I can say for certain that ultimately it was Battler that found the path to the golden land, not her. And yet she acts as if she did everything alone.
Ultimately, it was Erika who did the job: she knew it was about the characters, when she was pressing on the matter until Battler was saying it out loud. Basically, Battler was used as a "watson" for her. Then, she was moving to the library for the atlas etc etc.
Even Battler himself was more like "well, it is Erika" before Erika declined the gold succession.

Quote:
For instance what if Kanon and Kumasawa were the killers? But I can add more. what if the killer noticed the tape (as in fact Kanon and Kumasawa easily did), understood the trick and replaced momentarily with a fake tape. After Kanon and Kumasawa broke the fake seal, he would then reapply the true one. For Erika there would be no way to understand the truth.
Fake seal doesn't work. As stated in red, once the seal is broken, there is no way to hide it.

Quote:
Oh yeah, so now Battler is the detective. Then why he never had all those special privileges that Erika has?
Because it was Bern's decision.
Quote:
You could say that Erika reached a red truth without proper proofs which is against Dlanor's commandment.
Again, it was bern. Since it was a stalemate if Natsuhi claims it was Krauss or Kinzo, Bern just cut short to this, which is part of the trial rigged side.

Quote:
To compensate for this blatant unbalance Battler acquires the power to state an even more unquestionable truth. Now honestly this new element that pops up without previous notice right at the most convenient time sounds like a "deus ex machina" to me.
This is basically the same as Beato's red, because she is the one who create the gameboard, so she knows what's true, what's not. Thus, if Battler takes her role, it is only logical for him to figure few things that are definitely the truth.
It might pops as a surprise, but the gold truth is definitely within the scope of the events.

Quote:
To me she didn't look like she was eager to finish it, she enjoyed it and wanted more.
So why was she so frantic to stop another trial then? She even herself thought the red truth by Erika was perfect. So why was she reluctant, despite she could crush and have a "dessert" for her fun? She definitely wanted to make it quick, but she was enjoying the struggle of the pieces and opposing party, that's for sure.

The fact she is using drastic different and brutal methods really show how she really doesn't want to drag the "farce" of Beato's game, so with Lambda, it just became even more of a blitzkrieg than your usually long gameboard.
And who said Bern wanted to uncover the truth? She stated a lot of time: she just wants to be the winner. The winner here is: anti fantasy, proving it wasn't the witch's doing. So a false truth is good enough, so long it is "consistent" and "denying the witch". That works within Bern's victory condition.

Quote:
However the very existence of Erika is a major blow to the mystery perspective. Unless you claim that when you see Erika doing "metagame" is not supposed to happen (like every single scene where she appears, basically), her existence is inexplicable. She is way outside the realm of reality. And the worst part is that you actually see everyone reacting at her "Bernkastel my master" and the "I'm a detective, it's a detective privilege" statements.
I believe these parts were basically a merged result of both world and meta world.
In fact, the episode was basically Anti Fantasy VS Mystery, while AF doesn't mind using Fantasy itself to deny it. Which is funny because Bern complained to Battler at the start that he was only Anti Fantasy, but not mystery.
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Old 2009-08-28, 04:35   Link #507
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
She devised the "door seal" with Eva. Which means: it is possible that Erika says the paper seal wasn't good enough and after pondering together, they found the solution. I really doubt there isn't any tape in the mansion.

We don't know the structure of the guesthouse, and "huge" is to the author's discretion. Now, considering she was staying at the guesthouse, it is only logical she doesn't have the time for the mansion, so it was Eva who took care of it.
However, there is no guarantee that Eva didn't pulls things so Natsuhi could be framed. Regardless if Erika was aiming for Natsuhi from the beginning or not, it is clear Eva would regardless do things to crush Natsuhi and Krauss.
The fact Erika didn't mention other possible seals doesn't mean there wasn't any more.

Erika proved quite early that she has a lot of deduction skills before and after the epitaph segment. As shown before, Eva does show respect to that when it was about Kyrie. In this point, even Eva says she would gladly give a portion to Erika if she resolve it.
The fact Erika didn't take the whole inheritance was most probably another factor that gained Eva's trust.
Also, it isn't hard to expect a murder in this kind of situation: the ones who are the most in danger in this case are obviously Krauss and Natsuhi. Therefore if Erika mentions they can prevent these 2 to do anything, Eva would gladly help, especially she believes that Kinzo is dead already.
about the tape, I thought Erika mentioned it was a special tape, I might be wrong though.
Anyway I already read your defense on Erika's odd behavior on your previous post, but I can't bring myself to accept this a plausible. I can't really see how she could be so sure a crime would happen to the point of placing dozen of seals and spenfing a whole night awake, even if she was supposed to be tired as hell after swimming for who knows how many kilometers in the middle of a typhoon.
This is not normal no matter how you try to look at it.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Ultimately, it was Erika who did the job: she knew it was about the characters, when she was pressing on the matter until Battler was saying it out loud. Basically, Battler was used as a "watson" for her. Then, she was moving to the library for the atlas etc etc.
Even Battler himself was more like "well, it is Erika" before Erika declined the gold succession.
This is what Erika skillfully made everyone believe, and Battler just fell on the trap. If you go back to that point and take the relevant discoveries said by Erika on one side and the relevant discoveries said by the others on another side, you'll find out that Erika on comparison did very little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Fake seal doesn't work. As stated in red, once the seal is broken, there is no way to hide it.
You didn't get my explanation. It only need to be real when Erika was checking it. It didn't need to be real when Kanon and Kumasawa broke it. In other words it is possible that the real broken seal was concealed while the culprit applied a fake seal, so they would sate that "they broke the seal", after that the culprit would remove the fake seal only leaving the real one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Because it was Bern's decision.
Again, it was bern. Since it was a stalemate if Natsuhi claims it was Krauss or Kinzo, Bern just cut short to this, which is part of the trial rigged side.
As I said, it is unfair, and btw, if it wasn't for Lambda's compliance Bern couldn't do this probably.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This is basically the same as Beato's red, because she is the one who create the gameboard, so she knows what's true, what's not. Thus, if Battler takes her role, it is only logical for him to figure few things that are definitely the truth.
It might pops as a surprise, but the gold truth is definitely within the scope of the events.
well the deus ex machina usually are within the scope of the events.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
So why was she so frantic to stop another trial then? She even herself thought the red truth by Erika was perfect. So why was she reluctant, despite she could crush and have a "dessert" for her fun? She definitely wanted to make it quick, but she was enjoying the struggle of the pieces and opposing party, that's for sure.
There's no problem in ending it quick if you can play as many games as you want. Finishing it quick it was a way to show how good she was. If Bernkastel really wanted to finish it once and for all, she would have done so, but she was already thinking about the next game. It doesn't make sense. Her purpose was to finish the game once and for all, not finish it quickly so to enjoy the next game. If she really wasn't fully prepared to finish it once and for all, then she should have rather waited a little and gather more info.
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Old 2009-08-28, 04:49   Link #508
Klashikari
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
about the tape, I thought Erika mentioned it was a special tape, I might be wrong though.
Anyway I already read your defense on Erika's odd behavior on your previous post, but I can't bring myself to accept this a plausible. I can't really see how she could be so sure a crime would happen to the point of placing dozen of seals and spenfing a whole night awake, even if she was supposed to be tired as hell after swimming for who knows how many kilometers in the middle of a typhoon.
This is not normal no matter how you try to look at it.
Although her behavior is certainly ridiculous as a whole, the reasoning behind is totally valid. If we accept the premise Erika was a detective before coming in Rokkenjima, it doesn't take long for anyone like this to figure there WILL be a murder, especially if they discuss with one of the siblings. If Erika learns about the inner strife between the siblings about the inheritance, it is obvious the chances that a crime will occur are much greater than it won't be any.
As for the fatigue, we absolutely don't know. Even the characters were mentioning how she was energetic during dinner etc despite she was drowning few hours before.
From my point of view, it is possible: I've seen patients at hospital with nasty tiring and/or painful state far worse than simple fatigue, and they could act as if nothing happened.
Quote:
This is what Erika skillfully made everyone believe, and Battler just fell on the trap. If you go back to that point and take the relevant discoveries said by Erika on one side and the relevant discoveries said by the others on another side, you'll find out that Erika on comparison did very little.
Doing little doens't mean it reflects the actual thought of a character. I personally don't care if she really thought of that before Battler or not, the thing is that she did drive Battler's thoughts on several occasions. Surely, Battler could do it alone if he had the same hints from someone else.
Quote:
You didn't get my explanation. It only need to be real when Erika was checking it. It didn't need to be real when Kanon and Kumasawa broke it. In other words it is possible that the real broken seal was concealed while the culprit applied a fake seal, so they would sate that "they broke the seal", after that the culprit would remove the fake seal only leaving the real one.
Putting an extra seal will just makes things worse regarding the marks etc. The red states clearly there is no way for the seal to be removed without any mark. This speculation means you must place the fake seal, and the original seal exactly on the same location. Furthermore, peeling the tape would crease it.
Quote:
well the deus ex machina usually are within the scope of the events.
Huh no. A deus ex machina is actually something going against the events: something totally out of the blue, it isn't within the scope of the events, since they are devices that appear from nowhere to simply fix the situation where the characters couldn't. As I said, considering Battler's role now, it is not a deus ex machina. Call if a convenient plot progression, but it isn't "out of the blue".
Quote:
There's no problem in ending it quick if you can play as many games as you want. Finishing it quick it was a way to show how good she was. If Bernkastel really wanted to finish it once and for all, she would have done so, but she was already thinking about the next game. It doesn't make sense. Her purpose was to finish the game once and for all, not finish it quickly so to enjoy the next game. If she really wasn't fully prepared to finish it once and for all, then she should have rather waited a little and gather more info.
Why would she gather more information, considering she herself doesn't care about that?
If she believes Erika's reasoning was perfect (despite she knew it isn't the truth, since she knows Kinzo is dead), there is no need to push further, or it would crumble her own side.
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Old 2009-08-28, 07:10   Link #509
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Putting an extra seal will just makes things worse regarding the marks etc. The red states clearly there is no way for the seal to be removed without any mark. This speculation means you must place the fake seal, and the original seal exactly on the same location. Furthermore, peeling the tape would crease it.
You don't need to remove the original seal, just cover it with another tape. I see no problem with that, tapes always come in a roll, there is no problem in placing a tape over another tape since they are created in a way you can do that without any problem. No visible trace is left on a tape surface after you remove a tape over them because by default that's how they came out from the factory. The example I made by no mean goes against the red truth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Huh no. A deus ex machina is actually something going against the events: something totally out of the blue, it isn't within the scope of the events, since they are devices that appear from nowhere to simply fix the situation where the characters couldn't. As I said, considering Battler's role now, it is not a deus ex machina. Call if a convenient plot progression, but it isn't "out of the blue".
I think I don't get what do you mean by "going against the events". If you mean going against the course of the story before the introduction of this new element, then it fits the case of the golden truth, because Battler was not supposed to go against the knox rule. Battler with the golden truth "de facto" ignores a previously established rule, you said it yourself that he didn't "abuse it", because you do realize that if he did he could have won just by saying whatever he wanted without any effort, which is exactly the problem with deus ex machina.



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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Why would she gather more information, considering she herself doesn't care about that?
If she believes Erika's reasoning was perfect (despite she knew it isn't the truth, since she knows Kinzo is dead), there is no need to push further, or it would crumble her own side.
Then explain me. Bernkastel "won" that game. The illusion of Beatrice was defeated. Erika reasoning was unscated after Battler's confrontation. The high court proclaimed her victory. So why. Why the endless game repetition didn't end? If killing the witch was really the definitive victory condition as you say, then why a new game was supposed to happen? What would have been the next purpose then? Defeating the witch again? And who would revive her? Bernkastel herself appointed Erika as the new gamemaster. If things were left as they were, what would have happened? Erika would have probably recreated another game like Lambda did and she would have won it easily since by being the game master she has a complete knowledge of the game. But since defeating the witch was already accomplished before, accomplishing it again wouldn't change a thing. At any rate Bernkastel wasn't aiming at finishing everything by the end of this game, she doesn't give a damn about the fact that a sixth game is going to start (hell she is actually the one that order Erika to prepare it), while Battler wouldn't really care about winning if it doesn't mean bringing this story to an end.
That's why I believe Bernkastel is merely interested in such "victory". A victory that doesn't make the endless repetition end, exactly what happened on game 5 before Battler got back.
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Old 2009-08-28, 08:12   Link #510
blitz1/2
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Ange said in red she was his sister. Unless there's some semantic trickery there (and that makes no sense, as Battler couldn't say Asumu was his mother even though she raised him), that means at least one of Rudolf or Kyrie is a shared parent between them.

And if his mother is Kyrie, then his father must be someone who is Kinzo's son, or he can't be Kinzo's grandson. That doesn't necessarily mean, of course, that his father has to be Rudolf or Krauss...
Battler didn't say that Asumu was his mother.

He tried to say, "I was born from Asumu Ushiromiya", but can't.
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Old 2009-08-28, 08:51   Link #511
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You don't need to remove the original seal, just cover it with another tape. I see no problem with that, tapes always come in a roll, there is no problem in placing a tape over another tape since they are created in a way you can do that without any problem. No visible trace is left on a tape surface after you remove a tape over them because by default that's how they came out from the factory. The example I made by no mean goes against the red truth.
I'm not convinced because that is pretty much a game over if no one checked Genji's door except Eva or Erika. By that I mean: should one of them be faster than any of the servant, it would give away someone was faking Genji's seal. It is too risky, especially Eva and Erika's behaviors aren't predictable, especially the latter's.
Quote:
I think I don't get what do you mean by "going against the events". If you mean going against the course of the story before the introduction of this new element, then it fits the case of the golden truth, because Battler was not supposed to go against the knox rule. Battler with the golden truth "de facto" ignores a previously established rule, you said it yourself that he didn't "abuse it", because you do realize that if he did he could have won just by saying whatever he wanted without any effort, which is exactly the problem with deus ex machina.
What I meant with "going against the course of events" is basically a miraculous solution that came out of nowhere, which doesn't make sense at all with the current situation of the plot.
That's like a hero about to be trampled by the villain, then suddenly, a god shows up, powns the bad guy, good end (despite we are in a cyber punk setup story), that's that kind of "out of nowhere / out of the blue" element that is a deus ex machina.

That is why it is not a deus ex machina, because Battler only breaks a rule through the change of his position. He didn't break the game.
And now you said that if Battler could use the gold truth to solve the whole mystery in the get go, that would be a deus ex machina. Therefore, since it wasn't used like this, it isn't.
Quote:
Then explain me. Bernkastel "won" that game. The illusion of Beatrice was defeated. Erika reasoning was unscated after Battler's confrontation. The high court proclaimed her victory. So why. Why the endless game repetition didn't end? If killing the witch was really the definitive victory condition as you say, then why a new game was supposed to happen? What would have been the next purpose then? Defeating the witch again? And who would revive her? Bernkastel herself appointed Erika as the new gamemaster. If things were left as they were, what would have happened? Erika would have probably recreated another game like Lambda did and she would have won it easily since by being the game master she has a complete knowledge of the game. But since defeating the witch was already accomplished before, accomplishing it again wouldn't change a thing. At any rate Bernkastel wasn't aiming at finishing everything by the end of this game, she doesn't give a damn about the fact that a sixth game is going to start (hell she is actually the one that order Erika to prepare it), while Battler wouldn't really care about winning if it doesn't mean bringing this story to an end.
That's why I believe Bernkastel is merely interested in such "victory". A victory that doesn't make the endless repetition end, exactly what happened on game 5 before Battler got back.
I will repeat again Bern's own word "please do your best efforts, so I won't be bored, ok?".
Even if Bern wins, the whole deal is amusing, principally because she is ridiculing Beato, her game and the pieces alongside. Thus, why would she stop there, despite she can have another crushing victory?
That said, I never said Bern wanted to finish the game with this gameboard, but she had her share of amusement with this, so she wants to go with something else. She is "de facto" declared as victor, but that doesn't mean the game is meaningless afterwards: steamrolling again and again is also the enjoyment of some people.

I won't deny the fact it might be a playacting (heck, I still think there is equal chance that Bern is acting like a villain so Battler just go totally serious with "Mystery" instead of "Anti Fantasy"), but from the image she is showing, the bern we saw really don't care about the truth. Why would she leave Erika doing the previous episodes with Natsuhi as the culprit in mind then? Basically, "this bern" (for lack of better words) really don't give a damn about the truth.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-08-28 at 09:01.
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:02   Link #512
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~Beato Doesn't gain anything~so it mean other will gain something, if Beato was doing all this game for Battler then maybe Beato is trying to make Battler remember something, proof can maybe found where Battler is always last one to die or diappear.~Beato doesn't enjoy killing~ maybe this would make sense that Beato is rushing[in Ep4] beacuse she also doesn't want to kill them. If Beato have feeling of love toward Battler then this also can be proof why Beato is rushing,because she doesn't really want to kill him even if this is a game.

Battler Mother isn't Asmu. How about Battler is Direct son of Kinzo. I saw that in Ep5 Bern [joke] say that maybe Natsumi and Kinzo Had a special Relationship. Okay what if this is a hint? What if it is not Natsumi who had special relationship with Kinzo Maybe it is another Woman
Asmu is not the real mother of Battler but Battler remember her raising him,if Battler is Direct Son of Kinzo and Kinzo doesn't want his children to know,so he gave Battler to Asmu and she raised him as he was her real son. If Battler is really a Grandson of Kinzo Then there is two thing i can think 1st maybe Kinzo had one more child and this child gave birth to Battler but after giving birth to Battler his real Parent died so Kinzo gave Battler to Asmu so she will be able to marry Rudolf It couldn't be Kyrie because as i see at Ep4 Kyrie Family and Ushiromiya Family didn't had good relationship,but then accept when she gave up her family name. 2nd maybe Battler is from others like Eva,Rosa,and Natsumi or his father might be other like Krauss or his father is Rudolf but his mother might be other woman then how did Asmu got Battler?it is possible that Eva,Rosa,Natsuhi,Krauss,Rudolf or Woman X gave him to Asmu. But If is really Eva,Rosa,Natsuhi,Krauss "okay now lets add" Hideyoshi then why do they need to hide Battler?maybe Battler is from other man, not their husband or from other woman, not their wife.
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:12   Link #513
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In EP 4 Beato denied to state in red "Battler Ushiromiya is not Kinzo's grandson". Because of this we know that Battler is Kinzo's grandchild - the entire point of what Beato did was because she claimed Battler wasn't Kinzo's grandchild and therefore had no right to play the game.

This cannot apply to Kyrie or Asumu, because neither of them are Kinzo's direct children. They don't carry his blood (and there is no crest on their hearts /shot) so that means Battler is the son of Kinzo's children. It's between Rudolf and Krauss and I'm certain that Rudolf is the father - it's even mentioned how Battler and Rudolf even act and look alike to a certain degree.

And also, I HIGHLY doubt Battler is Kinzo's son. It makes zero sense. It's stated in red during the trial that Kinzo never thought good of Natsuhi, because she couldn't give birth quicker, and that the nice Kinzo she saw was her delusion. Plus I'm highly sure Natsuhi loves Krauss, even saying she would never leave him (then again, looking at it I think she might be more in love with her last name than with him ) Of course that entire trial was meta sooo who knows.
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:12   Link #514
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One thing I'd like to point out about EP5. The basic premise is that Lambda and Bern have hijacked the game board.

My guess is that this means the number of "falsehoods" on the game board is incredibly high compared to other Episodes, hence Ronove's line "It had no love."

In other words, while Beato's games were set up in a way that they could be solved, Bern and Lambda's game might not have been (and yes, I doubt Lambda was the sole Game Master, strictly speaking).

Simply put, this makes EP5 the hardest Episode yet. There are almost no helpful clues and the trial itself isn't that useful either.

BUT remember what Virgilia said at the beginning. "In this game without Beato, try to find some piece of her." Virgilia's random comments were the biggest clue in EP3, and I think they're a big clue now. In other words, there is a logical solution to EP5, but there's probably no way for us to find it yet. The real thing we get out of this Episode is a few hidden bits of information on what the Meta World is, so there's really no need to be disappointed in the lack of new game board info, I think.
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:23   Link #515
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
I'm not convinced because that is pretty much a game over if no one checked Genji's door except Eva or Erika. By that I mean: should one of them be faster than any of the servant, it would give away someone was faking Genji's seal. It is too risky, especially Eva and Erika's behaviors aren't predictable, especially the latter's.

What I meant with "going against the course of events" is basically a miraculous solution that came out of nowhere, which doesn't make sense at all with the current situation of the plot.
That's like a hero about to be trampled by the villain, then suddenly, a god shows up, powns the bad guy, good end (despite we are in a cyber punk setup story), that's that kind of "out of nowhere / out of the blue" element that is a deus ex machina.

That is why it is not a deus ex machina, because Battler only breaks a rule through the change of his position. He didn't break the game.
And now you said that if Battler could use the gold truth to solve the whole mystery in the get go, that would be a deus ex machina. Therefore, since it wasn't used like this, it isn't.
I will repeat again Bern's own word "please do your best efforts, so I won't be bored, ok?".
Even if Bern wins, the whole deal is amusing, principally because she is ridiculing Beato, her game and the pieces alongside. Thus, why would she stop there, despite she can have another crushing victory?
That said, I never said Bern wanted to finish the game with this gameboard, but she had her share of amusement with this, so she wants to go with something else. She is "de facto" declared as victor, but that doesn't mean the game is meaningless afterwards: steamrolling again and again is also the enjoyment of some people.

I won't deny the fact it might be a playacting (heck, I still think there is equal chance that Bern is acting like a villain so Battler just go totally serious with "Mystery" instead of "Anti Fantasy"), but from the image she is showing, the bern we saw really don't care about the truth. Why would she leave Erika doing the previous episodes with Natsuhi as the culprit in mind then? Basically, "this bern" (for lack of better words) really don't give a damn about the truth.
Well I admit saying that it is a deus ex machina is maybe exaggerate, but it's pretty close to it. As you said if he used to win the game in one shot, it would definitely be a deus ex machina. Well obviously there was no way Ryukishi would do such a thing, however Battler still uses it to solve one of the obstacles. I don't really like this development because I would have prefered that Battler used his logic instead. This gold truth came out from nowhere, not a single thing was mentioned about this before. Of course you could say the same about the red truth and the blue truth, but the difference is that the gold truth appeared in a critical moment.

About Bern, if you agree that in this game she didn't aim to a definitive resolution yet, then that's all right. It explains why Lambda doesn't get in her way and actually gleefully watches her developing he scheme. I do think that Bern in the end thinks that she will win, what I do not think is that right now her priority is to win, it is more fun->victory right now, imho. And after this episode5 I think there is also pride. Thinking about it, Battler's value on the gameboard has changed drastically, he even surpassed Bern as for what concerns the knowledge of the gameboard. Now having Battler as an ally would mean sure victory. And that's what I really don't get. Why Bern doesn't want Battler as an ally? She's not stupid, she knew the reaction she would obtain by acting so bitchy in front of him. An intelligent person that really aims for victory wouldn't disregard the help of the ally. After all this war between Battler and Bern only goes to Lambda's benefit.

I am also wondering if it isn't just a twisted scheme, I do agree with you that bern's behavior in this game was completely out of character. However I fail to see the benefit that came out from this situation. I don't think it had anything to do with Battler becoming the gamemaster nor I see how it was necessary. But maybe there's something I don't know.

Lambda's behavior is even more perplexing. She is letting Bern having her little fun winning the game, probably because she also rather get rid of Battler and Beato. However Bernkastel placing her piece as a gamemaster should have been a big threat for her. And then when Battler wakes up he snatches away the title of gamemaster from Erika and Lambda is still amused. It looks like she doesn't think it matters at all. Even with Battler knowing everything of the gameboard she still doesn't feel threatened. I fear there might be very unfair trap somewhere. Maybe the victory conditions aren't exactly what we suppose they are...

Quote:
My guess is that this means the number of "falsehoods" on the game board is incredibly high compared to other Episodes
So... does that mean that there's still hope for the shkannon theory? J/K XD
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:31   Link #516
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You don't need to remove the original seal, just cover it with another tape. I see no problem with that, tapes always come in a roll, there is no problem in placing a tape over another tape since they are created in a way you can do that without any problem. No visible trace is left on a tape surface after you remove a tape over them because by default that's how they came out from the factory. The example I made by no mean goes against the red truth.
If I'm not mistaken, the seals were all signed by Erika and Eva.
And, according to them, the signatures could not be faked

「それにさらに、切れ目、扉と枠部の3ヶ所に、模写不可能な私のサインにて割り印がしてありま す。
よって、痕跡を残さずに剥がすことも貼り直すことも、一切出来ないわけです…!」

Even Kanon and Kumasawa noticed the scribbles
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:36   Link #517
TsundereCake
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I have a question:

Spoiler for just in case:
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:46   Link #518
Jan-Poo
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I'm not sure how the japanese sound like about that.

For example

with the exception of Natsuhi's room the existence of a living Kinzo inside the mansion is denied

in english really sounds like a confirmation that Kinzo is inside Natsuhi's room.

Oh about that. Did anyone get that riddle that only an english speaker can understand? I didn't quite get it.

"Why a dragon sleeps all day?"
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Old 2009-08-28, 10:59   Link #519
theacefrehley
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That's just meant to corner Natsuhi
Kinzo is obviously anywhere, not even in Natsuhi's room
It's meant to deny his presence everywhere, except for her room (where he is not, too). It's like, 'the only place remaining to deny his existence is natsuhi's room'.
However, the red is true even so

As for the riddle
Just think: Knight ~ night, these two words sound similar in english
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Old 2009-08-28, 11:01   Link #520
AzureVermillion
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Spoiler for Dragon Riddle:
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