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Old 2009-08-31, 05:13   Link #601
kaitwospirit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhysfel View Post
Well, we could say that Nanjo's role is similar to Dr. Armstrong's role in Agatha Christie's ''And then there Were None''.(Which is very similar to Umineko)
Spoiler for That Novel:


Or maybe his just an accomplice after all...
Well... given that Kinzo is dead before the start of all these games, then Nanjo has to be involved to some extent: after all, dead people don't need doctors. Whether he's a killer, I don't know, but he gives an estimate of Kinzo's remaining lifespan every single time without having seen the guy. At the very least he's being paid off to do that and keep his mouth shut about not knowing where Kinzo is.

My guess is that he was roped in by promises of money for treating his sick grandkid, and all he had to do was come to the island for the family conference and lie about Kinzo's health... I see it as unlikely that he's a killer simply because it looks a lot like he's kept alive at someone else's convenience. At first it's important to have a doctor on board to verify that those dead bodies are really dead bodies (have you been paid off to do that too, Nanjo?), but later, it's more helpful to spread panic, and people panic more when they have a lack of facts to reason from.
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Old 2009-08-31, 07:31   Link #602
Jan-Poo
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I think you guys are quite cruel. Battler is trying his best not to suspect anyone, and you want practically everyone to be the culprit XD

Plus I think this thing about Nanjo's grandchild is ridiculous. This is Japan we are talking about, why do you think you need huge amount of money to receive health care for life-threatening conditions? Medical insurance is compulsory and it should cover everything. Not to mention the fact that that child's father is the head of an hospital and should have access to any medical resource available. Plus that child's father seems to have high moral standards, so much that he refused to take 100 million yen. How would he accept any kind of suspicious money?

I place my bet on a single culprit, max 2-3 including accomplices.
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Old 2009-08-31, 16:01   Link #603
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I'm formulating a final theory (well, it's more of a detailed elaboration of Jan-Poo's theory, but whatever) and I have a question over one scene I heard about the fifth episode (as I have not played it yet):

Spoiler for The final scene:



Quote:
Battler wanted Beatrice to have just told him the truth from the beginning instead of setting up all these elaborate games to teach him it.
Truth being what? His sin?
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Old 2009-08-31, 16:05   Link #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
I'm formulating a final theory (well, it's more of a detailed elaboration of Jan-Poo's theory, but whatever) and I have a question over one scene I heard about the fifth episode (as I have not played it yet):

Spoiler for The final scene:
Battler wanted Beatrice to have just told him the truth from the beginning instead of setting up all these elaborate games to teach him it.
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Old 2009-08-31, 16:49   Link #605
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That certainly, but not only that. Because Battler long before realizing everything, he already understood that Beatrice wanted him to find something in a very elaborated way, even though she could tell him directly.

So that reaction can't be justified only by that.

Anyway that "baka yaroo" was directed to "Beatrice", almost certainly.

The truth that he finds out is... everything. According to Lamdadelta Battler understood every single thing of the gameboard already. But I wonder if that's really true °°; He certainly understood everything concerning Beatrice, but did he understand how everything was done?
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Old 2009-08-31, 17:36   Link #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think you guys are quite cruel. Battler is trying his best not to suspect anyone, and you want practically everyone to be the culprit XD

Plus I think this thing about Nanjo's grandchild is ridiculous. This is Japan we are talking about, why do you think you need huge amount of money to receive health care for life-threatening conditions? Medical insurance is compulsory and it should cover everything. Not to mention the fact that that child's father is the head of an hospital and should have access to any medical resource available. Plus that child's father seems to have high moral standards, so much that he refused to take 100 million yen. How would he accept any kind of suspicious money?

I place my bet on a single culprit, max 2-3 including accomplices.
Whole thing is the granddaughter had an incurable disease, according to his son and his TIPs in EP 4. She ended up passing away by 1998 and there was no cure. If he could get enough money to fund research for a better treatment and possible cure I'm sure he would. But ya, Nanjo being culprit is too much - accomplice is more likely.

Although I think that we have more possibilities for the 'trap' Ryukishi mentioned.

1) Nanjo. That is we all assume he's an accomplice because he's the doctor - what if he's a red herring all together?

2) Asumu. What if she never actually died? Battler never states how she died exactly - what if Rudolf just told him she had died and refused to let him see the body. This means that Asumu was banged up so badly Battler shouldn't have been allowed to see or that she never died to begin with.
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Old 2009-08-31, 17:55   Link #607
Volcanic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
2) Asumu. What if she never actually died? Battler never states how she died exactly - what if Rudolf just told him she had died and refused to let him see the body. This means that Asumu was banged up so badly Battler shouldn't have been allowed to see or that she never died to begin with.
Although this might come from watching too much Higurashi, this makes me think: was Asumu's death a main factor, or even a foreshadowing of the Rokkenjima massacre?

Maybe the killer tried to strike six years ago, but failed? Maybe the killer is linked to Asumu? I have a feeling that Asumu is much more important than we think.


Darn, "six years ago" is going to be to Umineko what "three years ago" is to Haruhi...xD
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Old 2009-09-02, 18:53   Link #608
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, but does anyone know if the Ep 5 character poll is up yet? I vaguely recalls the others starting a few weeks after the release of their respective games.
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Old 2009-09-03, 02:07   Link #609
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No, you can check the polls here:
http://07th-expansion.net/ninnki.htm
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Old 2009-09-03, 02:40   Link #610
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Haha, this one is great. Especially the fact that BattlerXRonove is almost as popular as GeorgeXShannon. And the especially crack-y ones as you get into the lower rankings.
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Old 2009-09-03, 05:39   Link #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
That certainly, but not only that. Because Battler long before realizing everything, he already understood that Beatrice wanted him to find something in a very elaborated way, even though she could tell him directly.

So that reaction can't be justified only by that.

Anyway that "baka yaroo" was directed to "Beatrice", almost certainly.

The truth that he finds out is... everything. According to Lamdadelta Battler understood every single thing of the gameboard already. But I wonder if that's really true °°; He certainly understood everything concerning Beatrice, but did he understand how everything was done?
I think he really did understand everything, he already understood about Beatrice when she sacrificed herself, which led him to dive into the Ocean of Kakera...as far as I remember...where he understood everything that happened on the gameboard (also indicated by every single game flashing by again).

I really do think that Battler understood not only Beatrice's reason, but especially the futility of her action, regarding what he found out...which may be the reason to call her an idiot.
Maybe he found out, that Beatrice was doing all this not for her, but for a special loved one (Kinzou, Battler...maybe the entire family) and that she could have just told him that.

I don't know how far one can interpret the ending of Episode 5 (Tsubasa), but I think it wasn't played at the end for nothing (at least dai and the other interpreters seem to know some stuff).

Spoiler for For long lyrics and translation:


I know it's not always a good idea to take songs into account when it comes to interpretations, but so far they always seemed to fit, when it came to the When they Cry series'.
So maybe it is important for Battler to 'recollect his crime' and remember his own sin and it is not possible to Beatrice to easily tell him...the purgatory aspect of Umineko is rather high, and while Higurashi was about innocent people toyed around by the wheels of fate, Umineko may be about people burdened with sin who work toward their own demise.
Maybe it was not even the fact the the solution is so simple which drove Battler into doing what he did...maybe he found out that his family IS that horrible and that he finds it unacceptable that Beatrice suffered for people like them.
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Old 2009-09-03, 05:41   Link #612
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Thanks for the poll link. =3 The 'most suspicious person' one is interesting, too. (Also, are the polls official? I don't think I've seen Battler referred to as 'meta Battler' officially before. .____.)

And, as I'm in this thread, thank you to all the people who have been posting summaries/explanations about episode 5. It's much appreciated. 8D Seems like this episode's more confusing than the last one, especially with the boundary between the meta world and the gameboard. ;
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Old 2009-09-03, 05:49   Link #613
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BTW sorry I haven't posted the rest of the ??? Tea Party summaries since medical research calls. I should be able to finish the rest by Saturday.
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Old 2009-09-03, 07:15   Link #614
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
I think he really did understand everything, he already understood about Beatrice when she sacrificed herself, which led him to dive into the Ocean of Kakera...as far as I remember...where he understood everything that happened on the gameboard (also indicated by every single game flashing by again).

I really do think that Battler understood not only Beatrice's reason, but especially the futility of her action, regarding what he found out...which may be the reason to call her an idiot.
Maybe he found out, that Beatrice was doing all this not for her, but for a special loved one (Kinzou, Battler...maybe the entire family) and that she could have just told him that.

I don't know how far one can interpret the ending of Episode 5 (Tsubasa), but I think it wasn't played at the end for nothing (at least dai and the other interpreters seem to know some stuff).

Spoiler for For long lyrics and translation:


I know it's not always a good idea to take songs into account when it comes to interpretations, but so far they always seemed to fit, when it came to the When they Cry series'.
So maybe it is important for Battler to 'recollect his crime' and remember his own sin and it is not possible to Beatrice to easily tell him...the purgatory aspect of Umineko is rather high, and while Higurashi was about innocent people toyed around by the wheels of fate, Umineko may be about people burdened with sin who work toward their own demise.
Maybe it was not even the fact the the solution is so simple which drove Battler into doing what he did...maybe he found out that his family IS that horrible and that he finds it unacceptable that Beatrice suffered for people like them.
well I think you are right, if I said that maybe Battler didn't understand everything is because I was being prudent, you never know with this story ^^;

The lyrics of the songs are certainly important, think about "senza amore la verità non si vede" (without love the truth cannot be seen), you can hear it in the very first opening of Ep1 and on ep5 it became a central theme.

I also think the lyrics of "yakusoku" should be examined carefully. Excluding "happy maria" whose lyrics are only there for choreographic purpose, yakusoku is the only singed song that plays in the middle of the game, and it plays in one of the most important scenes of the whole story.

So reading both the lyrics of Tsubasa (hope ver) and Yakusoku, you can understand that the sin is all about a broken promise that was forgotten, but for the other party "never changed" for a long time.
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Old 2009-09-03, 08:22   Link #615
Raneh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe
I know it's not always a good idea to take songs into account when it comes to interpretations, but so far they always seemed to fit, when it came to the When they Cry series'.
Well, what I'm going to write isn't exactly in the right topic but since you're talking about it:
In the anime op there are these lines that I was thinking about even before ep5 was out
Quote:
Hatasenai yakusoku wa mune no oku kogetsuite
Akaku akaku hazeteku yo

Something like:
The unfillable promise burns into my heart
And stirs the deep red
Ever since I saw that I was thinking that the massacre is because of a broken promise. The op's lyrics also point out many other things in the series so that supports it.
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Old 2009-09-03, 09:57   Link #616
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Originally Posted by Kamar View Post
Haha, this one is great. Especially the fact that BattlerXRonove is almost as popular as GeorgeXShannon. And the especially crack-y ones as you get into the lower rankings.
rofl, Satan x Sabakichi? What the hell? (Kumasawa and Gohda don't seem too thrilled about being put together...)
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Old 2009-09-03, 10:32   Link #617
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Originally Posted by Evy View Post
rofl, Satan x Sabakichi? What the hell? (Kumasawa and Gohda don't seem too thrilled about being put together...)
And we though Stake's Valentine's Day was bad...

Anyway, gonna try to decipher the lyrics of the game OP now.

EDIT: Okay, anime OP.

Spoiler for Long Text thing lol:

Last edited by Volcanic; 2009-09-03 at 11:41.
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Old 2009-09-03, 13:39   Link #618
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanic View Post
And we though Stake's Valentine's Day was bad...

Anyway, gonna try to decipher the lyrics of the game OP now.

EDIT: Okay, anime OP.

Spoiler for Long Text thing lol:
Good, but yet again do not compare the lyrics to EP 5. The song was written and produced long before EP 5 came out - saying Shikata or whoever wrote the lyrics made it that way to foreshadow to EP 5 is impossible because the game wasn't even out yet.
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Old 2009-09-03, 13:55   Link #619
Volcanic
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Good, but yet again do not compare the lyrics to EP 5. The song was written and produced long before EP 5 came out - saying Shikata or whoever wrote the lyrics made it that way to foreshadow to EP 5 is impossible because the game wasn't even out yet.
That's the only problem, yeah. It could be coincidence. It really is, which is...slightly creepy. If I didn't know better the song could've been a whole EP5 foreshadowing troll song
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Old 2009-09-03, 14:01   Link #620
Jan-Poo
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Just a note:

Quote:
Are you without sin?
This is not a question, it's a statement: "you are without sin".
Maybe a hint that "Beatrice" isn't the real killer?
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