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Old 2009-09-09, 20:08   Link #661
ameskitty
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Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
Well that sucks. ._.
Hopefully a fan will make a poll... but it still won't be the same...

I'm curious though, what "resources" is he talking about? Does it really take that much to make a poll? O.o;
More specifically I think it's something regarding HP (the guy in the circle that runs the poll) and some website maintenance things he has to work out. Given all the downtime and some of the non-update periods they've had lately it's not too surprising.
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Old 2009-09-09, 20:15   Link #662
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Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
More specifically I think it's something regarding HP (the guy in the circle that runs the poll) and some website maintenance things he has to work out. Given all the downtime and some of the non-update periods they've had lately it's not too surprising.
Ahh that makes sense as well. I guess it make sense for them not to have an official poll this time around... but it's still semi heart breaking for me. ;___;
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Old 2009-09-09, 20:45   Link #663
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_rogue View Post
More specifically I think it's something regarding HP (the guy in the circle that runs the poll) and some website maintenance things he has to work out. Given all the downtime and some of the non-update periods they've had lately it's not too surprising.
More specifically, HP is the shortened of Homepage, which mean Ryuukishi's 07th-Expansion site. It is under maintenance right now (knowing the word "maintenance" in personal use/doujin-tasks uses Japanese sites, it should take around more than 4 months-6 months for God Knows Why.), so he can't open the poll in sometime.
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Old 2009-09-09, 23:08   Link #664
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Ahhh, that's why it didn't make total sense XD. Silly me. I kept thinking HP was a person (most likely mixed it up with BT, who actually is a person on their team...and I think he's even the webmaster too ).

The site is rather confusing so it's good that it's getting an update .
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Old 2009-09-10, 06:52   Link #665
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Regarding Erika...

Spoiler for EP5:


I apologize if that doesn't make a lick of sense, just something I wanted to post before I headed to bed.

Oh, and one more question.

Spoiler for EP5:
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Old 2009-09-10, 07:06   Link #666
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Originally Posted by Escargotage View Post
Regarding Erika...

Spoiler for EP5:


I apologize if that doesn't make a lick of sense, just something I wanted to post before I headed to bed.

Oh, and one more question.

Spoiler for EP5:
Assumption is that she's a human piece under Bern but with probably some supernatural aspects similar to Meta Battler.

The revelation of the stakes isn't much of a revelation as it comes out more as Bern and Erika deriding the stakes. There is probably some truth to what Dlanor and Erika's research about their origins. I f you want to know more...

Spoiler for Stake's Origins (?):
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Old 2009-09-10, 07:43   Link #667
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
No, with Chinaman, it referred to someone who looked distinctively different from the rest (i.e. quite out of place). Think of it as the Chinese man in a room full of white people, in which the Chinese man is the culprit.

I think this was used a lot on Sherlock Holmes novels.

I think rule 5 was not used because it works only for the author. Well, all of the rules work like that, but I don't see how R07 could make it work for the characters. That, and we should take into account no one (other than the fantasy characters) looks out of place.
There is more than that. You need to understand the mentality of that time. Back then people weren't used to violence and gruesome scenes are we are. Especially in england there was this common belief that the "sons of England" were all controlled, well educated and rational people, as opposed to the "savages" they often encountered in their various colonies. This kind of mentality was later challenged by Golding in "the lord of the flies".

So in a few words, from the pow of the common reader of the mystery novel of that time, it was unthinkable that an english man could perform such atrocious murders and the likes. So the "chinaman" was a literary device to appease the anxiety of the readers when faced to such scenes. By putting the blame on the "chinaman", there was a naive attempt to "explain" the violence. People would read the novel and think: "Of course the villain is a foreigner so that's why!"

This is what the 5th rule was really trying to fight. It wasn't a problem of consistency (if so why there isn't a rule for anachronisms as well?), it was an attempt to remove this latent xenophobia in the mystery novels.


Ironically this really fits with Battler's situation, because Battler didn't want to believe that the culprit was one of the people that are close to him. So he'd rather explain the crimes with an unknown stranger.
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Old 2009-09-10, 13:00   Link #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
*snip*
So the fifth rule in the context of Umineko would be further reinforcing that yes, one of the 17 family members is the killer.
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Old 2009-09-10, 13:06   Link #669
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So the fifth rule in the context of Umineko would be further reinforcing that yes, one of the 17 family members is the killer.
You could say that, but it's also very easy to argue that the 5th rule doesn't apply in Japan at this time period. Again, Knox didn't necessarily mean it as an absolute rule, but mainly focused it against a specific trend in his time.

Here's the full text of the rule, taken word for word:
Spoiler for knox's 5th:


As you can see, there's no reason that this has to be a universal rule and apply anywhere outside Knox's original place and time. Since Ryuukishi didn't include it in the game, we can only assume that he isn't viewing it as a universal rule either. Therefore, discussion about the 5th commandment seems almost pointless to me...
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Old 2009-09-10, 14:58   Link #670
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Well of course, it is a fact that Ryukishi completely omitted this rule, so there's no reason to make theories based on this. It isn't just that he forgot to mention it, the full list of the "revised" knox rules are available in the TIPS, but on number 5 he blatantly wrote "omitted".

What I was arguing so far is that I didn't kinda like this choice, if he really didn't like the 5th rule he could have come up with a revision of the 5th rule in a way that could be compatible with his story (it isn't so difficult). Showing a full list of the ten Knox rules, with a blank line on the fifth one was kinda lame imho.
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Old 2009-09-10, 19:13   Link #671
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well of course, it is a fact that Ryukishi completely omitted this rule, so there's no reason to make theories based on this. It isn't just that he forgot to mention it, the full list of the "revised" knox rules are available in the TIPS, but on number 5 he blatantly wrote "omitted".

What I was arguing so far is that I didn't kinda like this choice, if he really didn't like the 5th rule he could have come up with a revision of the 5th rule in a way that could be compatible with his story (it isn't so difficult). Showing a full list of the ten Knox rules, with a blank line on the fifth one was kinda lame imho.
What would you like him to do then? Change the meaning of a rule into something completely arbitrary? At least as far as Knox's original intentions are concerned, rule 5 probably has nothing to do with Umineko. You're suggesting that he make a rule there just to fill out the ten, regardless of whether it has any affect on the story whatsoever. Also, if you look at the full set of rules, the other ones are not "revised" at all. He just picked out certain parts of them than are usually used in the English "one sentence per rule" shortened version that most people usually find first. Everything he puts is within the bounds of interpretation of the originals.

He's still using Knox's Decalogue (this is the name Knox used and doesn't work if you shorten it to nine), but he isn't applying all of them. And he doesn't have to. Saying a rule doesn't apply in a certain situation is a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
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Old 2009-09-10, 22:26   Link #672
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As for Erika, I think she may be similar to Ange. Bern may have been searching in the kakeras, realised Erika was close to Rokkenjima during those days, and then she contacted her. If we go by Erika's personality, Bern probably just told her about the situation (a mystery, a challenge), and then told her she'd make her a Witch of Truth, if she managed to deny the witch. That'd may explain why she was conveniently wearing a swimsuit when she fell of the ship she was on.

As for why she isn't denying Bern and Lambda, they seem to be her benefactors. If anything has been told/shown to us already, is that you usually don't go against those people you like, or those who are on your side, etc... That, and she was contracted only to deny Beatrice.
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Old 2009-09-10, 22:52   Link #673
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I think that the 5th rule would throw the witch side in a corner, because it means a foreigner (not one of the 17) is doing the killing. That's like giving up.

I did like that piece on why the 5th rule was written though, thanks. I haven't read many english mystery novels, and didn't notice the chinaman until this thread. But still, there aren't that many good tv mysteries right now either. (Personally thinks Perry Mason was the best, and that's black and white) I mean in the tv shows, there is only about 5 suspects or so, but it's easy to figure out who done it, the interesting part is the way they catch them...

Hey Mao, if you are slightly less stressed by school, mind posting the rest of the tea party? (Saturday has come and gone already, did you forget?) Thanks! Of course, if you're really busy, I can wait. School first, right?
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Old 2009-09-11, 07:33   Link #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Also, if you look at the full set of rules, the other ones are not "revised" at all. He just picked out certain parts of them than are usually used in the English "one sentence per rule" shortened version that most people usually find first. Everything he puts is within the bounds of interpretation of the originals.
Well to me there is quite a big difference between the original rules and the ones in umineko

The second rule states that the supernatural is forbidden. So any claim that Ryukishi didn't include the 5th rule because it would corner the witch side totally pales in front of the original second rule which clearly states that a crime can't be performed through magic.

But in Umineko it became: "the detective cannot use magic". I fail to see this as a "shortened version", to me it completely changed its meaning. Actually put like this it just looks like a slightly different version of the sixth rule.

Then there's the 3rd rule which said that "no more than one secret passage is allowed", and in Umineko became "all secret passages are forbidden".

I quote Klash btw http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...25#post2590525

Quote:
N9: This rule is totally different from the original commandement.
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Old 2009-09-11, 11:42   Link #675
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well to me there is quite a big difference between the original rules and the ones in umineko

The second rule states that the supernatural is forbidden. So any claim that Ryukishi didn't include the 5th rule because it would corner the witch side totally pales in front of the original second rule which clearly states that a crime can't be performed through magic.

But in Umineko it became: "the detective cannot use magic". I fail to see this as a "shortened version", to me it completely changed its meaning. Actually put like this it just looks like a slightly different version of the sixth rule.

Then there's the 3rd rule which said that "no more than one secret passage is allowed", and in Umineko became "all secret passages are forbidden".

I quote Klash btw http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...25#post2590525
You have to read the full text of the commandments, not just the short one-lined versions.

Quote:
Knox's 2nd: All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course. To solve a detective problem by such means would be like winning a race on the river by the use of a concealed motor - engine.
Yes, Knox originally meant forbidding the use of anything supernatural in the story. But the second sentence shows that the main (though not only) reason for doing this is because solving the case with the supernatural would be a total cop out. Ryuukishi simply took the most strongly emphasized section of this rule and ignored the rest.

Spoiler for extra bit:


Quote:
Knox's 3rd: Not more than one secret room or passage is allowable. I would add that a secret passage should not be brought in at all unless the action takes place in the kind of house where such devices might be expected.
Yes, you can easily argue that the Ushiromiya mansion is a place where you might expect to find secret passages. However, this condition is open to interpretation, and you can argue that a mystery purist would treat the exception here as the rule. Knox goes on to say:

Quote:
When I introduced one into a book myself, I was careful to point out beforehand that the house had belonged to Catholics in penal times.
So this might just be a little 'cya' that led him to come up with the arbitrary "one secret passage". Definitely within the room for debate on interpretation.


Quote:
Knox's 9th: The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader. This is a rule of perfection; it is not of the esse of the detective story to have a Watson at all. But if he does exist, he exists for the purpose of letting the reader have a sparring partner, as it were, against whom he can pit his brains. 'I may have been a fool,' he says to himself as he puts the book down, 'but at least I wasn't such a doddering fool as poor old Watson.'
The ninth rule is Ryuukishi's biggest stretch in interpretation by far, but it still makes sense if you think about it. The law itself says that a "Watson" isn't needed, so it doesn't need to be taken that literally.

The point here is that Ryuukishi has actually taken the same meaning but used it for a different purpose. If 'Watson' "must not conceal thoughts that pass through his mind", then this implies that he is allowed to show his opinion to the reader at times.



Again, I don't think that he just removed the 5th commandment. I think he used a (very valid) interpretation of it which rendered it not applicable to this story. He didn't want to include it in the tip because that would just confuse the reader unnecessarily (assuming that he doesn't plan to make use of the 5th).
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2009-09-11 at 12:04.
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Old 2009-09-11, 12:00   Link #676
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
You have to read the full text of the commandments, not just the short one-lined versions.



Yes, he originally meant forbidding the use of anything supernatural in the story. But the second sentence shows that the main (though not only) reason for doing this is because solving the case with the supernatural would be a total cop out. Ryuukishi simply took the most strongly emphasized section of this rule and ignored the rest.
While I agree that the use of supernatural by the detective was, of course, also forbidden, I disagree that this was the main point. I think the main point here is similar to the one on the 4th rule. If you are allowed to use magic as an explanation then it is impossible for the reader to reach the solution, and that's the same in the case of undiscovered substances and strange apparatuses.



Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Yes, you can easily argue that the Ushiromiya mansion is a place where you might expect to find secret passages. However, this condition is open to interpretation, and you can argue that a mystery purist would treat the exception here as the rule. Knox goes on to say:

So this might just be a little 'cya' that led him to come up with the arbitrary "one secret passage". Definitely within the room for debate on interpretation.
I think that what Knox was trying to forbid was an unreasonable use of secret passages. He admittedly included a secret passage in one of his stories, but he claims he was justified because of the setting. Now the recurring theme in the Knox rules is "if something strange is present in the story the reader must have been duly prepared for it". And in the case of the Ushiromiya Mansion, I'd say there is no doubt that we have been duly prepared that a secret passage might exist.

To be completely blunt, I wonder if the way to the hidden gold really doesn't entail any secret door. So in the end ironically the idea that no secret passage exist, when it is practically certain there is an underground tunnel which entrance is unknown to most people, sounds unreasonable in this context.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The ninth rule is Ryuukishi's biggest stretch in interpretation by far, but it still makes sense if you think about it. The law says that a "Watson" isn't needed, so it doesn't need to be taken literally.

The point here is that Ryuukishi has actually taken the same meaning but used it for a different purpose. If 'Watson' "must not conceal thoughts that pass through his mind", then this implies that he is allowed to show his opinion to the reader at times.
But what I was expecting for the 5th rule wasn't anything that you could call more of a revision than what he did for this 9th rule. I am sure he could have managed that in a way that, if he did, you'd say it is a fair interpretation the same you are doing for the other rules.
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Old 2009-09-11, 12:43   Link #677
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I think you've made my point for me.

All three of your counter-arguments are based on your interpretation of Knox's rules.
Unless you are trying to argue that your interpretation alone is accurate, then you have to admit Ryuukishi has the leeway to make the decisions he did.

Knox's own words:
Quote:
Not all critics will be agreed as to their universality or as to their general importance, but I think most detective 'fans' will recognize that these principles, or something like them, are necessary to the full enjoyment of a detective story.
In other words, he admits that it's the principles behind his rules that are important, rather than the actual wording. This is what leaves the rules open to interpretation.
Also, the fact that Umineko takes place in a completely different setting means that you're forced to interpret the rules a little. To do otherwise would be to follow the letter of the law while not the spirit.

Spoiler for size:


Spoiler for size:


Spoiler for size:


Spoiler for size:
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Old 2009-09-11, 13:00   Link #678
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All three of your counter-arguments are based on your interpretation of Knox's rules.
Unless you are trying to argue that your interpretation alone is accurate, then you have to admit Ryuukishi has the leeway to make the decisions he did.
Chrono I don't think I ever said Ryukishi wasn't justified into changing he Knox rules or giving to them a different interpretation, quite the contrary. My point is that he definitely did, and he definitely changed the way the rules were presented.

Even if you say that maybe Ryukishi got the essence of the knox rules, by the same logic you used here neither you nor Ryukishi can "argue that your interpretation alone is accurate". Which is why in doubt Ryukishi should have sticked with the original, however he deliberately changed them.
As for why he did that, whether because he didn't care too much about strictly sticking with the original (as I say), or because he genuinely thought his own interpretation was correct, there is no way to prove it.

However I prefer to stick with the first one, because the second sounds a little arrogant to me.

Quote:
Why? Would you really want him to include some random line even if it has nothing to do with the story? At the very least, he might be trying to just avoid the whole topic as that rule is a very sticky area if interpreted the wrong way, and the trend it was created to condemn is also sticky.
I would have strongly prefered that, rather than a "missing" line. I don't intend to debate that my point of view is right. This is my opinion on the matter.
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Old 2009-09-11, 13:10   Link #679
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Battler didn't know all the rules.
That almost begs for a parody shot after getting all the gold this time around.
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Old 2009-09-11, 13:17   Link #680
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Good, it looks like we're in agreement on that point then.

My point was never that your opinion was wrong, but that suggesting that Ryuukishi's decisions were "sloppy" (I know, not your word, but your posts strongly implied this) is unfair.

This isn't a question about being sloppy or not. It's a genuine difference in opinion. Rules tend to mean things, so adding to Knox's rules just to make a tip look prettier wouldn't help the story. If Ryuukishi felt that the fifth rule shouldn't be included in his story, then removing it from the tips is a legitimate decision.
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