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Old 2009-09-25, 17:45   Link #841
Workworkwork
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Hideyoshi was attacked, according to Natsuhi's POV. If he wanted to commit suicide, why make a scene like that. Also, I doubt he would kill his own son.

Why would 'Kyrie' (Asumu) change her name to Asumu? It sounds really convoluted. Also, because Beato denied to repeat 'Ushiromiya Battler is not Kinzo's grandson' then the opposite is probably true. Also, remember Rosa's flashback. Human Beatrice died in 1967, a year before Battler was even born. Dates could be forged, but still why would Kinzo hand over that child to Rudolf.

And you still need to remember Knox Rule 10 with disguises. Unless it was hinted Asumu can't be in disguise as Kyrie and the latter's behavior has been pretty much consistent throughout the arcs.

I think Asumu is just dead in the grave and that's all there is to it. Disguiser ending is a bit of a copout imo.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leinne View Post
Wasn't is said by Bern that the cut for the game is made in october the 4th and Ange was sick since the 3rd. oF course, she could use her miracle magic, but I don't think Ryukishi would want a 6 year old girl dead. Still, I thin the cutting rule applis to all games, still Beato changed thing beforehand, master keys, so it is a bit puzzling about what can be done, but I still think Ange 86 can't come and the Ange in Meta-world of ep4 wasn't the real future-Ange, just Bern's piece made after her, she could've explained Batler some things about the future without really revelaling her identity, but she didn't which I still consider suspicious. The Ange 98 existed and died after all the flashbacks (probably suicide), but she's probably unrelated to the ANGE we see in Meta-world, like Erika, but helping Battler
Well, is it really that much of a stretch to just have Ange take Pepto-Bismol or something? Knowing what her sickness was and all.

I'm just thinking 86's Ange could go in there believing in a magical Battler, since it would be too much of a stretch to think Battler, who's always been pretty opposed to magic, would suddenly think he has some magical self who lives in an alternate dimension, and knows about a whole bunch of things.

Ditto for Maria, who basically had no memory of Battler whatsoever, and only knows he doesn't believe in magic.
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Old 2009-09-25, 18:09   Link #842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
He understood everything about the gameboard, that's what Lambda says. So, he knows everything. That's why he's able to snatch the gamemaster title and use the gold truth after all.

What he will do right now is to clean his family name, beat Erika, restore Beato's game and end all of this.

I think that EP6 = Lambda and Bern's defeat, EP7 = end, and EP8 = Rei-like stuff.
I personally would love to see Bern get her ass stomped over and over again for the remaining episodes but that's just me.

I can't wait for Beato to come back and hopefully she'll be in episode 6 in some shape or form.
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Old 2009-09-25, 18:11   Link #843
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can't wait for Beato to come back and hopefully she'll be in episode 6 in some shape or form.
Now it would be great if Ryukishi made us wait 2 arcs to see Beatrice finally revived only to see Battler telling her a few secs later: "okay, time to keep my promise".
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Old 2009-09-25, 18:12   Link #844
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now it would be great if Ryukishi made us wait 2 arcs to see Beatrice finally revived only to see Battler telling her a few secs later: "okay, time to keep my promise".
My heart burns ;_;
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Old 2009-09-25, 18:13   Link #845
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now it would be great if Ryukishi made us wait 2 arcs to see Beatrice finally revived only to see Battler telling her a few secs later: "okay, time to keep my promise".
uso da!
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Old 2009-09-25, 18:17   Link #846
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Originally Posted by sento View Post
He understood everything about the gameboard, that's what Lambda says. So, he knows everything. That's why he's able to snatch the gamemaster title and use the gold truth after all.
Maybe he just knows everything about the nature of the game board, that is, its rules and whatnot.

I'm saying it's the difference between knowing X, Y, and Z, and being able to finger the culprit(s) immediately. Which one is it? Because I'd rather not have Battler figure out every single mystery in an instant and then not tell the reader. But if he figured out all the rules, it will become slowly obvious what those rules are based on how he approaches the remaining mysteries.
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Old 2009-09-25, 18:31   Link #847
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frankly I'm with Renall. I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that Battler actually understood all and any of the mysteries. He understood everything that was needed to become the next gamemaster and more importantly he understood everything about Beatrice and her true purpose. I guess this is what allow him to use the golden truth, even so both Lambda and Erika (although for a brief moment) became gamemaster but they were never able to use the golden truth.


@Marion: a little late anyway, you asked why Beatrice had to create such a convolute way to make Battler understand her feelings while she could have just told him directly. Why? She's a woman!

Okay jokes apart, Battler said it, she's like a "tsundora", and we know Beatrice's true purpose was to create a riddle for Battler to solve it. Beatrice probably doesn't think it is really that difficult. If Battler never forgot what he did, he would have understood in a sec. I'm sure Beatrice thought that, and she wasn't wrong. As soon as Battler remembered, the riddle was a trivial thing for him. The problem is it took a lot of time for Battler to remember. Beatrice maybe didn't think it would take that long. It is like when you close the eyes of a person from behind and ask him "who am I?" and then that person starts telling the names of all the people he knows, except you. You can understand how disappointed and hurt Beatrice was.

Battler was supposed to answer promptly, but he didn't. So Beatrice in Ep4 tried a more direct approach, "is it really that you don't remember?" Beatrice tested him, and that's when Battler answered without shame and in rage "No, I don't remember! I have no idea what you are talking about!"

Can you blame Beatrice for being so depresses after that?


Last thought.
Why Bern and Erika had to frame Natsuhi? Is that really they are completely clueless as to who is the real culprit? Is that how Bern wants to win? By taking shortcuts? Sure it is a very pragmatic thing, but didn't Erika said she take pride in solving riddles? Isn't it a more glorious victory to win by the book, than winning through cheating?
So I wonder. Maybe they had to create a culprit, because there isn't one.
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Old 2009-09-25, 19:25   Link #848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
@Marion: a little late anyway, you asked why Beatrice had to create such a convolute way to make Battler understand her feelings while she could have just told him directly. Why? She's a woman!

Okay jokes apart, Battler said it, she's like a "tsundora", and we know Beatrice's true purpose was to create a riddle for Battler to solve it. Beatrice probably doesn't think it is really that difficult. If Battler never forgot what he did, he would have understood in a sec. I'm sure Beatrice thought that, and she wasn't wrong. As soon as Battler remembered, the riddle was a trivial thing for him. The problem is it took a lot of time for Battler to remember. Beatrice maybe didn't think it would take that long. It is like when you close the eyes of a person from behind and ask him "who am I?" and then that person starts telling the names of all the people he knows, except you. You can understand how disappointed and hurt Beatrice was.

Battler was supposed to answer promptly, but he didn't. So Beatrice in Ep4 tried a more direct approach, "is it really that you don't remember?" Beatrice tested him, and that's when Battler answered without shame and in rage "No, I don't remember! I have no idea what you are talking about!"

Can you blame Beatrice for being so depresses after that?
My perfect defense has been shattered!!

And yeah I suppose you do make a point, but then again even after figuring it out Battler still said how she was stupid and that the riddle was too hard. Again though, she went on the idea that Battler knew the answer and why make a riddle to begin with - this is the life of his family that we're talking about.

Still, it makes me wonder if he did understand who the culprit was. Maybe he figured out about Beatrice and his sin, but as far as figuring out the culprit maybe he doesn't exactly know that yet.
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Old 2009-09-25, 20:12   Link #849
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Red and gold text for Episode 5

I haven't seen a completely translated collection of red and gold text yet, so here's my list. No promises that I got Gertrude and Cornelia's hyper-polite speech completely correct

Spoiler for Red and gold text for Episode 5:

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-09-26 at 12:49. Reason: Nanjo and Rosa have not ceased to exist
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Old 2009-09-25, 20:21   Link #850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maybe he just knows everything about the nature of the game board, that is, its rules and whatnot.
Lambda also specifies that he knows everything about the "world" too, meaning he should, in the very least, know the truth behind the EP5 murders. Personally, I've played through that part many times and never have I gotten the impression that Battler doesn't know everything. Especially with the ability to wield the golden truth. You shouldn't be able to use absolute truth unless you know it's, well, absolute.

The main reason people fight against it is because it seems like things would be too easy, but we don't know. It might be that the rules of the game will bind Battler in a similar way that Beato was. It might be that just gold truthing everyone to death and walking away won't lead to the outcome he wants. It might be that there are other factors that will come into play that will make things difficult to Battler.

All of those things are plausible, even with him knowing the full scope of "the truth."
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Old 2009-09-25, 20:23   Link #851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I haven't seen a completely translated collection of red and gold text yet, so here's my list. No promises that I got Gertrude and Cornelia's hyper-polite speech completely correct

Spoiler for Red and gold text for Episode 5:
Great job, thank you. The names of who used the red are really helpful.

The only thing I can think of to add that would be helpful would be a brief description of the context in which some of them were used.
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Old 2009-09-25, 20:31   Link #852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
I haven't seen a completely translated collection of red and gold text yet, so here's my list. No promises that I got Gertrude and Cornelia's hyper-polite speech completely correct

Spoiler for Red and gold text for Episode 5:

Is there a blue text list as well?
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Old 2009-09-25, 20:57   Link #853
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After transferring the phone call, Genji went straight back to the waiting room.
This one kept bugging me during the whole trial. In the game we clearly see Genji accompanying Krauss to the dining room. He even notices Battler's ring. I don't get it why this scene should be fake. The red truth seems to deny it (although maybe Genji went back to the waiting room just for a sec? And then joined Krauss again?). Anyway Erika kept saying that Genji just went there and never left the room until his demise.

Quote:
In other words, after she returned to the guesthouse, Kumasawa did not go up to the 2nd floor until morning.
In other words, after he returned to the guesthouse, Gohda did not go up to the 2nd floor until morning.
These two also pissed me off. Although the red truth is unquestionable. There was no way for Erika to confirm this. At best she could have confirmed that they didn't enter the cousin room (since she kept guard all night), but no more than that.

Her seals couldn't possibly help her in this case. By her own words, she never left her room until Battler screamed. And Battler woke up late. Gohda and Kumasawa at that time were already at the mansion preparing breakfast. When Erika went to check the seals, they had to be already broken.
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Old 2009-09-25, 21:12   Link #854
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So far the only solution I can see to the knock is that there never was one.

Or perhaps alternately that someone in the dining room knocked. The problem is the red text from Lambda suggests they did hear a knock without outright saying anyone knocked, and earlier red text claims no one in the mansion could be the source of the sound without actually denying someone in the room knocked on the door from the inside. But neither of these is really supported by anything, it's just stated. Time tomfoolery perhaps, if someone actually did knock, otherwise only one vague line suggests anything even happened.
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Old 2009-09-25, 21:13   Link #855
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Virgilia inspecting the bodies

Virgilia (privately to Beato a little after 12:33pm on the second day)
o That means that anyone could confirm at a glance that George, Jessica, Maria, Rosa, and Genji are dead.
Virgilia didn't need to say that in red to Beato. The only purpose of using red would be to give the clue to Battler who is watching from the meta-world.

Which pieces on the game board are allowed to communicate back and forth with their meta-world counterparts?

For episode 5:
magic-world Beato -> meta-world Beato = no
magic-world Virgilia -> meta-world Virgilia = yes
real-world Battler -> magic-world Battler = yes
real-world Battler and magic-world Battler -> meta-world Battler = no
etc...

Battler will probably have full control over his game piece in episode 6 so it will be interesting.
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Old 2009-09-25, 22:14   Link #856
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
So far the only solution I can see to the knock is that there never was one.

Or perhaps alternately that someone in the dining room knocked. The problem is the red text from Lambda suggests they did hear a knock without outright saying anyone knocked, and earlier red text claims no one in the mansion could be the source of the sound without actually denying someone in the room knocked on the door from the inside. But neither of these is really supported by anything, it's just stated. Time tomfoolery perhaps, if someone actually did knock, otherwise only one vague line suggests anything even happened.
Quote:
In short, everyone correctly discerned the sound of a direct knock on that door and could not have misheard it
They heard a knock, there's no mistake about that.

and

Quote:
A knock is when a person strikes a door with their hand right?
^- fixed

and

Quote:
I humbly state that in addition to Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji, none of the people in the dining room knocked
none of the people inside the dining room knocked.
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Old 2009-09-25, 22:40   Link #857
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
These two also pissed me off. Although the red truth is unquestionable. There was no way for Erika to confirm this. At best she could have confirmed that they didn't enter the cousin room (since she kept guard all night), but no more than that.

Her seals couldn't possibly help her in this case. By her own words, she never left her room until Battler screamed. And Battler woke up late. Gohda and Kumasawa at that time were already at the mansion preparing breakfast. When Erika went to check the seals, they had to be already broken.
Those lines bugged me too, but for a different reason. According to Erika, she sealed everyone in their rooms, so they shouldn't have been able to leave until morning when she checked the integrity of the seals. In the case of Nanjo, Bernkastel said that after 3am, he didn't leave his room until morning. Why did she use less restrictive red for Kumasawa and Gohda? If Erika's seals were really effective, she should have been able to confine both of them to their rooms too.

Looking back at everything that was said in red about seals...

Quote:
- Your seals and the red truth are perfect.
- At 1am, Eva placed a seal on the Genji's waiting room, and it was broken by Kanon and Kumasawa when the incident was discovered the next morning.
- The first ones to leave the dining room during the break at 1am were Rosa and Eva. Until Eva returned, everyone in the dining room remained there. After seeing Rosa off, Eva went to the waiting room and placed her seal. Naturally, at this point she did not enter the room at all.
- As a result, the integrity of the seals is assured. Miss Erika's seals cannot be broken or deceived by anyone!
- Eva's and Miss Erika's seals are the same. This method of sealing was invented after dinner by Miss Erika and Eva together, after all.
- I affirm that it is impossible to remove any of the seals without leaving a trace.
- There were no suspicious traces on the seals…!
- Absolutely no methods were used to interfere with the function of Erika and Eva's seals, such as peeling them off.
Based on the red we know that Erika has to have placed at least some seals, but none of it says anything about where she placed them. The only seal whose existence is confirmed in red is the one that Eva placed on the waiting room in the mansion. Not only that, but we never even once saw one of Erika's seals from any point of view, let alone hers. Given that there's no way she had time to place seals on the guesthouse windows, isn't it possible that many of these seals were actually outright lies, whose only purpose was to give Bernkastel a false basis to introduce red truth to the trial?

EDIT: Damn, I missed one. Miss Erika has sealed all of the means of entry. Guess that theory's out for the window seals, at least. However, that still doesn't explain the discrepancy with the internal seals.

Last edited by LyricalAura; 2009-09-26 at 01:39.
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Old 2009-09-25, 22:52   Link #858
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
They heard a knock, there's no mistake about that.
Did they? What does the Japanese say generally? Is it affirmative ("The knock which they heard could not be mistaken") or speculative ("if a knock was heard, they would not have mistaken it")? The main red here is:

In short, everyone correctly discerned the sound of a direct knock on that door and could not have misheard it. That means it's impossible for them to have heard any sound other than a direct knock on the door and misidentified it as a knock!

Is that a direct and affirmative statement that "a knock was heard, they discerned that it was a knock, and they could not have misheard it" or "everyone who was present claims to have heard a knock, which they did not mistake for anything else?"

It does seem like they all heard a knock, but to what extent could the red describe an unreliable event, since Erika wasn't present to witness anything that happened?

And if the red does indicate this, then what other option is there besides someone altering the time everyone perceived it to be in the mansion?

EDIT: The time must be the deception here.

It is the case that prior to the commencement of the family conference, Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa left the mansion and moved to the guesthouse.

No mention of the time.

Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji did not so much as touch that letter!

So they weren't the ones who left it. Then Cornelia says:

I humbly offer to state that at the stroke of midnight, besides Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji in the 2nd floor hallway and everyone in the dining room, absolutely no other humans existed inside the mansion.

This only says that no humans other than the ones noted existed inside the mansion at midnight. It doesn't say anything about before or after.

In short, none of the people inside the mansion can be the source of the sound. ……And when I say “none of the people,” even if there are unknown people in the mansion who no one has observed, they are also included.

I have to assume this means "at the stroke of midnight."

It has been pronounced in red that not a single one of the people who were in the mansion at midnight left that letter in the hallway.

So it was someone who was not in the mansion at midnight, but the letter/knock did not actually occur at midnight.

At the stroke of midnight, the only people who exist outside the mansion are Erika, George, Jessica, Maria, Nanjo, Gohda, and Kumasawa!

So it had to have been any of these people but Erika (assuming Knox for the moment, whether the knock/letter counts for this).

I affirm that for anyone outside the mansion, once the family conference began, it was impossible for them to take any action inside the mansion.

This is another time issue, but we don't know when the family conference began. Erika et al left "prior to the commencement." The only explanation I can think of is somebody who left came back to the mansion before the conference started.

And none of them would misrecognize the sound of a knock. Krauss, Natsuhi, and Genji were not involved with the knock. No other people existed inside the mansion. And knocking indicates the act of directly standing in front of the door and striking it.

"No other people existed inside the mansion" means what in this context, exactly? This one isn't time-based, it's tied to the knocking. Someone had to have been there to knock if a knock really happened, right? How do you read this if the theory is that someone else came back, then left before it really struck midnight?

Unless this is some lame trick like "The dining room is directly across the hall from the courtyard doors, and the person knocked and then immediately stepped outside so that they were not in the mansion when the sound was actually heard."

Another possibility is that they knocked, and knocked on a door, but it wasn't the dining room door. But Lambda says:

In short, everyone correctly discerned the sound of a direct knock on that door and could not have misheard it. That means it's impossible for them to have heard any sound other than a direct knock on the door and misidentified it as a knock!

This would seem to foil that by identifying the door that was knocked on.

Last edited by Renall; 2009-09-25 at 23:17.
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Old 2009-09-26, 02:14   Link #859
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Quote:
In short, the number of people in the parlor at this moment is the same as the number of people existing on the island. [Namely: Battler, Jessica, George, Maria, Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Gohda, and Erika]
Nanjo and Rosa were there too.

I don't like the red statements regarding the number of people on the island. The only purpose they serve is to place an upper limit of people that exist on the island at the time of the red declaration.

When Battler figured out Kinzo was dead Beatrice reduced the number from 18 to 17. So people that are dead on the island don't count toward the head count.

In episode 3 Beatrice starts off with There are no more than 18 people on this Rokkenjima well before the six are murdered. So after the red declaration, let's say that 5 murders take the boat to Rokkenjima to kill everyone. The red text is not violated because it was true at the time. The next red that comes is after 6 people have died so those six no longer exist by Kinzo's rule stated above.

There is no red statement that states that there are no more than 17 people (or 18 for episode 5) for the whole duration of the game, that's what's bugging me. Erika's arrival in episode 5 proves that ninjas are sneaking on this damn island.
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Old 2009-09-26, 02:20   Link #860
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Off the current topic, but about Battler "understanding everything"...

Since him knowing all the answers would logically preclude his POV being used... doesn't that mean that Erika, his new opponent, the anti-witch side, would be the new protagonist?

Just asking.
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