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Old 2009-09-29, 21:52   Link #961
Jan-Poo
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The funny thing is Battler will probably play Beatrice's piece on the next game.

And about a possible piece Battler could introduce. What about a younger Amakusa? It seems too strange that such an interesting character won't be developed anymore.

BTW has anyone thought that amakusa could be the young man of 19 years before?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Why wouldn't you want to add as many pieces to your side as possible?

My question is regarding the level of control.
If he's able to communicate back and forth with his piece like Beatrice was able to wouldn't the first move be to warn everyone that THEY ARE ALL GOING TO BE KILLED?
If Battler is the gamemaster he can control ALL the pieces except the ones under Bernkastel's control. However it might be strategically advantageous to add a piece because it's stronger or has more relevance than the ones already present. Whether Battler will actually make such a strategic choice is yet to be seen.

And he won't be able to do what you are imagining because that's probably one among the many stuff that a piece cannot do.
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Old 2009-09-29, 22:36   Link #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The funny thing is Battler will probably play Beatrice's piece on the next game.

And about a possible piece Battler could introduce. What about a younger Amakusa? It seems too strange that such an interesting character won't be developed anymore.

BTW has anyone thought that amakusa could be the young man of 19 years before?



If Battler is the gamemaster he can control ALL the pieces except the ones under Bernkastel's control. However it might be strategically advantageous to add a piece because it's stronger or has more relevance than the ones already present. Whether Battler will actually make such a strategic choice is yet to be seen.

And he won't be able to do what you are imagining because that's probably one among the many stuff that a piece cannot do.
But how would Amakusa get to the island. A shipwreck? Actually one of the more popular ideas is that he is the 19th person. That's why you have fanart like this.

What pieces does Bern have under her control exactly? Isn't it only Erika and everyone else was under Lambda's power? But if Battler is the game master that would mean he has control over everyone but Erika.

Still as GM wouldn't he know everything about everyone, similar to how Beatrice knew things Battler didn't (like about Asumu not being his real mother).
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Old 2009-09-29, 22:39   Link #963
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Depends. Is the game really chess? If so, than both Battler and Bern have 16 pieces each. With Lambda watching.

Assuming the "dead" Kinzo piece doesn't count and Erika does...that Bern gets 16 pieces and Battler 2 (Battler and one assumes the main adult female character from the first version of the arc...in this case, I'd guess Rosa) other...plus the magical pieces...if the game is being played the same as before. If things are reversed, than Battler gets 16 pieces and Bern gets 2 (Erika and probably Battler).

But the game master has changed...thus while the rules might be the same...they way we see it will be different.
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Old 2009-09-29, 22:52   Link #964
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More than one plan would naturally involve several masterminds (well, unless we'd say one mastermind crafted all these plans). That, I believe, would go against the set-up of a mystery novel - even if Umineko isn't a normal one. There can be several accomplices, but only one mastermind.

Anyway, if this was indeed Kinzo's will, even if he is dead, he'd be the mastermind, I guess. However, if anyone is carrying his will, it should be one of the people who knew about his death. So, far, the only ones we know about it are: Krauss, Natsuhi, Shannon, Kanon, Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji and Nanjo.

However, I find it odd that those people have been killed as well. I'd understand if Genji, Shannon and Kanon complied with getting killed, since they consider themselves furniture, but I highly doubt the others would go along with this game. So, I think that there are chances that either they started betraying/suspecting each other for some reason or none of them are related to these murders and there's some sort of third factor here (Beatrice's "unknown element X" maybe?).
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Old 2009-09-29, 22:54   Link #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Depends. Is the game really chess? If so, than both Battler and Bern have 16 pieces each. With Lambda watching.

Assuming the "dead" Kinzo piece doesn't count and Erika does...that Bern gets 16 pieces and Battler 2 (Battler and one assumes the main adult female character from the first version of the arc...in this case, I'd guess Rosa) other...plus the magical pieces...if the game is being played the same as before. If things are reversed, than Battler gets 16 pieces and Bern gets 2 (Erika and probably Battler).

But the game master has changed...thus while the rules might be the same...they way we see it will be different.
Honestly I don't want another arc centered around Rosa and Eva. Eva is more than explained in EP 3 and Rosa gets EP 2 and part of EP 4 for her stuff. If anything I want them to focus more on Rudolf, Kyrie and Hideyoshi. The three of them are easily the more undeveloped characters from the parents. I wouldn't mind more on Genji or Kumasawa either.

And the rules probably will change slightly. This time Battler is arguing for the magic side after all, so he might end up trying to argue magical reasoning, even though he himself doesn't believe in magic's existence on Rokkenjima.
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Old 2009-09-29, 23:03   Link #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
This time Battler is arguing for the magic side after all
I don't think so. The fact he's opposing Erika and Bern doesn't mean he's become part of the fantasy side. I think the following episodes will be something like mystery (i.e. the actual truth) vs anti-fantasy (i.e. any "truth" that denies witches).
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Old 2009-09-29, 23:03   Link #967
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It would seem more likely that he'd be using the magic to pull back the layers of lies and falsehood to find the truth of what happened. No more "a witch/magic did it". Now it is Battler pulling back accusations and red herring to find out the truth, dispite Erika's finger pointing.

At least that's what I think.
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Old 2009-09-29, 23:15   Link #968
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The problem with multiple pieces is that you have to protect all of them, while Bern's only focused on Erika with her group, Battler has to watch all the pieces he controls, (Beato's pieces, Battler, family) The problem is there are too many times when a piece (isn't it bad that I'm referring people as pieces?) "slips" off the board when we have no clue what happened or where they went.

Gamemaster means that Battler can choose what he wants to watch/show. The only problem is that Battler can't give his pieces, the human ones, out-of-character info, because of the Knox rules. (Why didn't Battler call Erika on this?)
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Old 2009-09-29, 23:37   Link #969
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I don't think the Gamemaster is necessarily restricted by Knox rules. Take a look at what Beato and Lambda did when they were on that position. I think only the detective is bound to follow those rules.

Well, Beato and Lambda were the fantasy side, and Battler isn't. So, he may have to follow Knox's rules in the end, I guess.
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Old 2009-09-29, 23:51   Link #970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I don't think the Gamemaster is necessarily restricted by Knox rules. Take a look at what Beato and Lambda did when they were on that position. I think only the detective is bound to follow those rules.

Well, Beato and Lambda were the fantasy side, and Battler isn't. So, he may have to follow Knox's rules in the end, I guess.
During the talk in Kinzo's study the only reason Battler won was because Dlanor and the other maidens couldn't use the red text 'Kinzo is dead' as an argument, due to Knox Rule 2, and because they weren't able to deny using the windows, which means that the detective side IS bound to the same Knox rules, otherwise they could use that text.
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Old 2009-09-30, 00:15   Link #971
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Yes, I know that much. But in EP5 Erika was the detective, not Battler. We don't know what role Piece-Battler will be playing in the following games, and Erika will most likely remain as the detective.

During the trial, Piece-Beatrice said that things were much more difficult for her, since she was no longer the Game Master. Now that Meta-Battler is the Game Master, and assuming that he indeed knows the truth (whatever the scope of that may be), it really makes you wonder how much this will affect Piece-Battler.
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:05   Link #972
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Isn't there a Knox rule that blocks out-of-character info?
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Old 2009-09-30, 01:11   Link #973
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I don't know exactly what you mean by out-of-character info but:
Knox Article 2. The usage of supernatural abilities as means for the detective is prohibited.
Knox Article 6. For the methods of the detective the use of a coincidence and the sixth sense is prohibited.
Knox Article 8. Solving by borrowing clues not presented is prohibited.
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Old 2009-09-30, 07:27   Link #974
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The more I read these speculations the more I think the games are fictional worlds created by Beatrice. We have game masters, we have mystery novel rules, we have people that are game pieces, we have metagaming. Plus we have Virgilia, Ronove and Beatrice that actually aren't bad people and yet they kill without remorse.

I think Ryukishi has been trolling us with the time loop kakera lookalike scenario. Since almost all of his fans know Higurashi, he knew that everyone would watch Umineko and think "oh this is another time loop like in Higurashi", but where is it actually stated? Sure there are kakera mentioned in this game, but that's Bernkastel's power, where has it ever been stated that Beatrice has that power as well?

We know that this is a world created by Beatrice, a world with well defined rules. If the games are real, then Beatrice has power over reality. We know that a game master can even move the pieces at his own discretion. The "magic scene" fake scenario explanation is getting less and less consistent. You can't use that explanation for everything that has been shown anymore.

I am very confident on my theory that Beatrice's power is the power of imagination, and that is why her power can only allow her to create fictional worlds. That's why mystery novels rules, which do not necessarily apply to the real world, can apply to this world.

I think Battler has finally understood all of this, that's why he can confidently assume the role of "gamemaster" and the title of "magician".
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Old 2009-09-30, 08:13   Link #975
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i thought they're at least 'copies' of kakera that actually happened. not really 'real', but based on real things. at least ange's world seemed to be a contnuation of EP3, but at the same time it seemed to be a 'real' kakera. so i figured something like EP3 must have happened.



Quote:
Erika was added during October 4th and not at the start of it
there are no rules about adding a piece during the game, at least no said ones. but the game starts on october 4th and GM doesn't have control over things that happen outside of it. ange's sickness starts at october 3rd, which is outside of the board, so it's impossible to bring her as a piece. at least unless GM can change the start date of the gameboard but i doubt it. anyway, i just wanted to say it doesn't contradct what bernkastel is saying or anything. i see no reason to doubt her words.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
It wasn't just an assumption. In ep1 Eva says that Ange is sick and she heard she's been vomiting. This kind of symptoms are usually associated with cold or influenza. But diarrhea is rarely so, plus Battler says this isn't just a recent condition, he says Ange always had such problems and it just aggravated prior the family conference.
thanks, i didn't notice it during the game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Still as GM wouldn't he know everything about everyone, similar to how Beatrice knew things Battler didn't (like about Asumu not being his real mother).
it's not necesarily because of her power as a GM. not to mention Ange seemed to know this too.
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Old 2009-09-30, 08:55   Link #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The more I read these speculations the more I think the games are fictional worlds created by Beatrice. We have game masters, we have mystery novel rules, we have people that are game pieces, we have metagaming. Plus we have Virgilia, Ronove and Beatrice that actually aren't bad people and yet they kill without remorse.

I think Ryukishi has been trolling us with the time loop kakera lookalike scenario. Since almost all of his fans know Higurashi, he knew that everyone would watch Umineko and think "oh this is another time loop like in Higurashi", but where is it actually stated? Sure there are kakera mentioned in this game, but that's Bernkastel's power, where has it ever been stated that Beatrice has that power as well?

We know that this is a world created by Beatrice, a world with well defined rules. If the games are real, then Beatrice has power over reality. We know that a game master can even move the pieces at his own discretion. The "magic scene" fake scenario explanation is getting less and less consistent. You can't use that explanation for everything that has been shown anymore.

I am very confident on my theory that Beatrice's power is the power of imagination, and that is why her power can only allow her to create fictional worlds. That's why mystery novels rules, which do not necessarily apply to the real world, can apply to this world.

I think Battler has finally understood all of this, that's why he can confidently assume the role of "gamemaster" and the title of "magician".
Beatrice had nothing to do with the creation of episode 5's game board yet the mystery novel rules still apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desirebluesky View Post
there are no rules about adding a piece during the game, at least no said ones. but the game starts on october 4th and GM doesn't have control over things that happen outside of it. ange's sickness starts at october 3rd, which is outside of the board, so it's impossible to bring her as a piece. at least unless GM can change the start date of the gameboard but i doubt it. anyway, i just wanted to say it doesn't contradct what bernkastel is saying or anything. i see no reason to doubt her words.
Bernkastel deceived Ange for the purpose of using her as a trump card. The real question is why would you trust anything she told to Ange?
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Old 2009-09-30, 09:06   Link #977
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because there is no reason not to trust her. i would think like that even if she didn't say it, just why would the game start when nobody is on the island yet? before EP5 we haven't even seen a single scene before then, excluding a few flashbacks from long before.
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Old 2009-09-30, 09:19   Link #978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Bernkastel deceived Ange for the purpose of using her as a trump card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by desirebluesky View Post
there is no reason not to trust her.
...

I don't really need to argue why Bernkastel is not trustworthy. If you've read episode 5 this should be obvious. Bernkastel may or may not have been telling the truth about the exact time of the cut off time for joining the game board but to claim that there is no reason not to trust her at this point is bit of a stretch.
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Old 2009-09-30, 09:52   Link #979
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. . . . .
UHHH i meant this one specific sentence. never said anythig about bern beeing trustworthy. (ok i did... but i didn't mean it at all >.>
honesty how oculd anyone think that )

i totaly fail at expressing myself. <_<
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Old 2009-09-30, 10:19   Link #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The more I read these speculations the more I think the games are fictional worlds created by Beatrice. We have game masters, we have mystery novel rules, we have people that are game pieces, we have metagaming. Plus we have Virgilia, Ronove and Beatrice that actually aren't bad people and yet they kill without remorse.

I think Ryukishi has been trolling us with the time loop kakera lookalike scenario. Since almost all of his fans know Higurashi, he knew that everyone would watch Umineko and think "oh this is another time loop like in Higurashi", but where is it actually stated? Sure there are kakera mentioned in this game, but that's Bernkastel's power, where has it ever been stated that Beatrice has that power as well?

We know that this is a world created by Beatrice, a world with well defined rules. If the games are real, then Beatrice has power over reality. We know that a game master can even move the pieces at his own discretion. The "magic scene" fake scenario explanation is getting less and less consistent. You can't use that explanation for everything that has been shown anymore.

I am very confident on my theory that Beatrice's power is the power of imagination, and that is why her power can only allow her to create fictional worlds. That's why mystery novels rules, which do not necessarily apply to the real world, can apply to this world.

I think Battler has finally understood all of this, that's why he can confidently assume the role of "gamemaster" and the title of "magician".
Spoiler for magic:


Spoiler for kakera:
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