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Old 2009-09-30, 21:21   Link #1001
Used Can
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Originally Posted by Workworkwork View Post
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I believe working with either numbers or people, in terms of denying witches, gives you the same result. In the moment it was said no 19th or 18th person existed, the player would normally be lead to assume that there cannot be any people in Rokkenjima other than the 17 we've seen.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
She didn't resolve the issue of the bodies going missing. Even if it's impossible to prove Natsuhi didn't commit the murders (which would satisfy "demonstrating it was possible through human means"), where'd they go? With Kinzo dead, there's no one to have moved them (ignoring for a moment the red text toward the end that throws a wrench into even that).
I know, my point was that Erika brought the first Anti-Fantasy victory - even if it was temporary. Sure, she didn't uncover the truth, but she was able to stick to the human culprit theory until the end, and back it up (even if she did it with faulty logic).

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah, but that's Bernkastel.
Yes, but you're missing my point. Bern treated those scenarios as kakeras. They were in the sea of kakera.

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Beatrice/Battler the Giant Rock to Lambda's Super Paper and Bern's Scissors.
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Old 2009-09-30, 22:14   Link #1002
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Old 2009-09-30, 22:46   Link #1003
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Old 2009-09-30, 23:49   Link #1004
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You seem to be assuming the pieces actually behave according to Beatrice's will, and that she's not just selectively displaying things in certain ways and making up others.
I am "assuming" this because that's what Bern and Lambda said. Bernkastel definitely said that she was guiding piece Battler actions when he solved the riddle, and Lambda used Battler to save Beatrice inside Kinzo's room. Now I don't really think the ability to move a piece is limited to the human side.
To state that a gamemaster cannot actually move the pieces you need to state that Bern and Lambda lied.

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Originally Posted by kite11 View Post
And the idea of Beato, Ronove, and Virgilia not caring about the deaths of the game pieces fits the "you don't cry when you lose a piece in chess" mind set. There have been a few instances where some kindness has been shown such as the 1st twilight of game 3 and with Gaap giving the dead their dignity in game 5. Beato... the "she's only acting" works here... And she does tone down a little...
Quote:
There are 2 ways to explain the characters' indifference. One is that they are falsehoods themselves. It's never been stated in red that they exist in the meta world.

The other is that, assuming a "final world" will be chosen in the end, the result of each game leading up to that doesn't matter (possibly). If you kill someone and then go back in time and stop yourself killing them, is there a crime committed in the final timeline? It seems as though this world has been repeating dozens if not hundreds of times. If so, their actions are perfectly reasonable.
I can't see Battler being able to accept these explanations, they do sound rational, but Battler doesn't seem the kind of person to accept the cruel side of reality.
There's only one thing that matters. Are they real human beings? Do they suffer? Are they dying for real?
If the answer to all these questions is "yes" then there's no excuse.

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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The game master isn't the narrator. The "narrator" is the viewpoint that we see the world through. I use "narrator" to describe the viewpoint we see the story by, not the person who created the story (who would be the author). However, the game master is able to show things to the narrator through the eyes and/or statements of certain people.
the problem is in a novel the author has also total control over the narrator, in other words the narrator is just an extension of the author. This is a scenario where the author can make the narrator see whatever he wants and can manipulate the narrator at will, in other words the distinction it's kinda pointless. The narrator tells you whatever the author wants.
Well at least that's what happens with real authors and they narrators.
If you think Umineko differs from this then the analogy doesn't work anymore.

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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post

Yes, but you're missing my point. Bern treated those scenarios as kakeras. They were in the sea of kakera.
If you watch a movie in kakera A and a different movie in kakera B, Bern can travel both kakera and see both movies. However the movie themselves aren't the kakera, they are just inside them. In other words it is possible that what Bern showed to Battler were the games the Battlers from other kakera played.
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Old 2009-09-30, 23:54   Link #1005
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If you watch a movie in kakera A and a different movie in kakera B, Bern can travel both kakera and see both movies. However the movie themselves aren't the kakera, they are just inside them. In other words it is possible that what Bern showed to Battler were the games the Battlers from other kakera played.
I don't get it. Are we actually agreeing or disagreeing?
You're basically saying there are several kakeras, are you not?
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:03   Link #1006
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I have never said Kakera do not exist , the ability to travel through kakera is Bernkastel's power, however I'm doubting that Beatrice has that power as well. Rather I think that Beatrice creates the games inside her own world. In other words whereas Bernkastel can travel infinite kakera and chose the one she likes, Beatrice can't travel at all, however she can create games using pieces taken from the real world (or pieces created by witch of origins).
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:11   Link #1007
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Well, just to clarify, I was never saying that Beatrice could travel between kakeras either. Haha...
Anyway, my point was that the worlds Beatrice created were treated like kakeras. Her ability is supposed to be Endless Realization, after all.
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:21   Link #1008
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well it is a possibility... as it is possible that Beatrice creates the games and then the Bernkastel finds kakera that perfectly match them XD

this would explain Ange and that 1998...

However this is getting confusing. There is also the possibility that Bernkastel can travel even inside fictional kakera ;;; like all the alternative scenarios of the X-men!

maybe I should stop thinking...
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:49   Link #1009
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
the problem is in a novel the author has also total control over the narrator, in other words the narrator is just an extension of the author. This is a scenario where the author can make the narrator see whatever he wants and can manipulate the narrator at will, in other words the distinction it's kinda pointless. The narrator tells you whatever the author wants.
Well at least that's what happens with real authors and they narrators.
If you think Umineko differs from this then the analogy doesn't work anymore.
I'm not sure where you're coming from here, maybe you could clarify. Yes, the author can decide what the narrator sees. However, the author knows both what the narrator sees and the truth as a whole. The narrator can see and believe something that isn't true, but the author always knows the truth. I don't see what exactly you're disagreeing with here...

In my theory, the author is limited by many rules, including the gold text, the laws of physics, the state of the world before the game starts, and simple cause and effect. They can only "choose" kakera which satisfy those strict conditions, so every single game has to have some basis in reality at the deepest levels.
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Old 2009-10-01, 00:50   Link #1010
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Bern is a visitor into Beato's universe. "Universes", which voyagers can travel to, which have kakera. The kakeras are worlds, but a witch (Beato) can look through them. Beato probably chose a kakera, either used it as it was or messed with it (magic) At least, that's the understanding I got when they were talking about voyagers...

Things like gold text and maybe the red eliminate possible kakera (because they are denied), but the sea is infinite.
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Old 2009-10-01, 01:03   Link #1011
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
In my theory, the author is limited by many rules, including the gold text, the laws of physics, the state of the world before the game starts, and simple cause and effect. They can only "choose" kakera which satisfy those strict conditions, so every single game has to have some basis in reality at the deepest levels.
Perhaps, you can also say those rules may be self-imposed. As in, the author is following those particular truths, so that a particular answer would be reached.
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:21   Link #1012
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I am "assuming" this because that's what Bern and Lambda said. Bernkastel definitely said that she was guiding piece Battler actions when he solved the riddle, and Lambda used Battler to save Beatrice inside Kinzo's room. Now I don't really think the ability to move a piece is limited to the human side.
To state that a gamemaster cannot actually move the pieces you need to state that Bern and Lambda lied.
Um... okay. Bern and Lambda lied. Why is this surprising? Erika said she helped Battler solve the epitaph too and she barely helped at all. Bern can say she helped piece Battler all she wants, it doesn't mean she did.

Bern and Lambda will say anything. They're inherently untrustworthy.
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Old 2009-10-01, 03:24   Link #1013
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Which again brings into question their use of the red text.

(Also a belated "Oh my god a Giant Rock....in America" joke)
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Old 2009-10-01, 07:27   Link #1014
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I'm not sure where you're coming from here, maybe you could clarify. Yes, the author can decide what the narrator sees. However, the author knows both what the narrator sees and the truth as a whole. The narrator can see and believe something that isn't true, but the author always knows the truth. I don't see what exactly you're disagreeing with here...

In my theory, the author is limited by many rules, including the gold text, the laws of physics, the state of the world before the game starts, and simple cause and effect. They can only "choose" kakera which satisfy those strict conditions, so every single game has to have some basis in reality at the deepest levels.
I agree with that you said except the part where you compare the author's work as "choosing a kakera". This kind of interpretation gives the idea that the "story" already exist, and the author is simply choosing one among the infinite already existing stories. My opinion differs from this because I think the author creates a story and can, at will, modify the parts, set up roles, create scenarios and such.
If you look at how Beatrice described her work behind the games, you'll notice that she always implied such a control over the gameboard.

This kind of interpretation affects the role of narrator. In your case the narrator has a will of his own (although manipulated by the author), while in my case the narrator is just an alias of the author's will (although the author can willingly make it so the narrator doesn't know the whole truth).

I guess the difference is very subtle, but still (imho) substantial.

EDIT: well I guess the main difference is that with the kakera interpretation you can only choose between "possible" kakera, and you are bound to reality rules. while with the creation interpretation you are only bound to literary novel rules and you can insert even things that are not possible in the real world. Of course your interpretation still allow for fake scenarios to be displayed as "fantasies" of the real persons involved. My interpretation gives a more direct explanation.

Right now I cannot say which interpretation is right, I think there's pro and cons with both of them. The pro of my interpretation is that it is consistent with what we are shown (see my response to Renall below), no need to think that Beatrice Lambda and Bern are lying. The cons is that, as you said, if everything that we have seen is a fictional world in its entirety, what's the point? Well I think there's still a way to make it worthy if there are precise rules to make it so the fictional world is relevant to the real world, but your point is still valid.
Your interpretation has the advantage of mediating with reality and the fiction it's been shown under our eyes. However this kind of approach becomes hard and harder each episode. The explanations to all these strange events become more and more convoluted. In the beginning you explained it by saying "everything that has magic events involved is fake". Then by episode4 this explanation doesn't work anymore, so even scenes that aren't suspicious at all can be fake. In the ep5 the metaworld and the gameboard are so intertwined that you can't tell them apart. Erika who is supposed to be the detective can talk about knox rules as if they apply to the real world, she claims to have detective rights, despite her being a little girl, and she can even call Bernkastel's name inside the gameboard as a piece. In other words at this point you can't even assume the existence of (at least) one reliable narrator, which was a cardinal point of the anti-fantasy approach so far.

Your theory is in the end a version of the classic anti-fantasy approach who has reached an higher level of complexity in order to explain all these things, because the old approach doesn't work anymore.

Quote:
Um... okay. Bern and Lambda lied. Why is this surprising? Erika said she helped Battler solve the epitaph too and she barely helped at all. Bern can say she helped piece Battler all she wants, it doesn't mean she did.
Can't counter that because this is a "braun tube", we won't be able to know if it's true or not until we look inside. Personally I don't think they lied.
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Old 2009-10-01, 12:12   Link #1015
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I am "assuming" this because that's what Bern and Lambda said. Bernkastel definitely said that she was guiding piece Battler actions when he solved the riddle, and Lambda used Battler to save Beatrice inside Kinzo's room. Now I don't really think the ability to move a piece is limited to the human side.
To state that a gamemaster cannot actually move the pieces you need to state that Bern and Lambda lied.
It's more like gamemasters can nudge pieces. Battler tries to put forth the idea that his actions on the gameboard has nothing to do with himself because Lambda and Bern are in control, but I trust Dlanor--a hell of a lot more than I do Bern and Lambda, I'll tell you that--when she says you can't make a piece do something contrary to their own nature.

So, in other words, Battler has the ability to solve the epitaph without Bern's interference. It's also "in character" for him to show mercy to Dlanor (and whiteknight for Beato).
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Old 2009-10-01, 13:37   Link #1016
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I agree with that you said except the part where you compare the author's work as "choosing a kakera". This kind of interpretation gives the idea that the "story" already exist, and the author is simply choosing one among the infinite already existing stories. My opinion differs from this because I think the author creates a story and can, at will, modify the parts, set up roles, create scenarios and such.
If you look at how Beatrice described her work behind the games, you'll notice that she always implied such a control over the gameboard.
Beatrice also implied that the letter with the words "Praise my name" was sent by her. However, as has already been mentioned, the epitaph mentions "my beloved witch" later on, so it doesn't make sense that the third twilight refers to Beatrice. It's almost a given that Beato had been lying or giving wrong impressions for most of the games, so I don't see how her claims can be considered reliable.

However, I believe the author can create scenarios and all that stuff by using the gold text, though they have to follow all the previously determined rules.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This kind of interpretation affects the role of narrator. In your case the narrator has a will of his own (although manipulated by the author), while in my case the narrator is just an alias of the author's will (although the author can willingly make it so the narrator doesn't know the whole truth).
Just to clarify, I never meant to imply that the narrator has a will of its own. I used "narrator" in quotes because it's nothing more than a viewpoint. It does not actually misinterpret things because it got tricked by the author, it literally sees the "hearsay" that the author feeds it.

Spoiler for size:


Spoiler for size:


Edit: Just to clarify another thing, the last line in my meta theory post is out of date. Assuming that the gold truth is the basis for the Game Master's red, there does not need to be a single "true" world, and some truths can become falsehoods if new gold text is added which contradicts those truths.
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Old 2009-10-01, 23:17   Link #1017
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
when she says you can't make a piece do something contrary to their own nature.

So, in other words, Battler has the ability to solve the epitaph without Bern's interference. It's also "in character" for him to show mercy to Dlanor (and whiteknight for Beato).
Well, there was a scene with him talking about Ange's chronic diarrhoea and making fart sounds while talking about it. It was said that was out of characters for him within the game I believe.

There was also Shannon looking all happy around the servants, even after George's death.
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Old 2009-10-01, 23:20   Link #1018
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Well, there was a scene with him talking about Ange's chronic diarrhoea and making fart sounds while talking about it. It was said that was out of characters for him within the game I believe.

There was also Shannon looking all happy around the servants, even after George's death.
Maybe Shannon doesn't really love George.
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Old 2009-10-01, 23:31   Link #1019
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Maybe, but after 4 episodes of development I'd expect R07 not to throw that kind of rubbish at this point. But that's only my opinion.
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Old 2009-10-01, 23:34   Link #1020
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I'd like the idea of Shannon actually loving George and having another reason why she's not really showing any signs of grieving. (Like perhaps, she really believes that she'll be reunited with him sometime... like in the Golden Land or in the next game... which, if she DOES remember past occurrences like it was lightly hinted at before would make her lack of emotion towards his death make sense.)
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