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Old 2009-10-01, 23:34   Link #1021
blitz1/2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Maybe Shannon doesn't really love George.
well, the theory of Shannon loving Battler is still high.
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Old 2009-10-01, 23:37   Link #1022
Marion
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Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
I'd like the idea of Shannon actually loving George and having another reason why she's not really showing any signs of grieving. (Like perhaps, she really believes that she'll be reunited with him sometime... like in the Golden Land or in the next game... which, if she DOES remember past occurrences like it was lightly hinted at before would make her lack of emotion towards his death make sense.)
Yeah this is what I believe. Kanon and Shannon fully believe in the Golden Land and that they will become human and be with their loved ones for eternity. Although that makes me wonder - if EP 6 starts off at where EP 5 left off then we might see them actually grieving because they realize that they aren't going to be with Jessica or George.
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Old 2009-10-02, 02:35   Link #1023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Yeah this is what I believe. Kanon and Shannon fully believe in the Golden Land and that they will become human and be with their loved ones for eternity. Although that makes me wonder - if EP 6 starts off at where EP 5 left off then we might see them actually grieving because they realize that they aren't going to be with Jessica or George.
Now that I don't buy for a second. Kanon seems way too cynical to really believe in the golden land.

I can buy George and Shannon's love being real, I'm just very suspicious of it. And it's also possible it's one-sided, but it's not exactly clear which direction.
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Old 2009-10-02, 03:56   Link #1024
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I don't think they necessarily have to believe in the Golden Land. If they remember the events of the previous games, and they are aware of these continuous chains of massacres, then I think it'd be natural for them to just accept these things, and become somewhat stoic. Just take a look at Rika, who basically developed a bitter personality.

What I found odd was not that Shannon and Kanon weren't grieving George's and Jessica's death, but the fact that they (at least Shannon) seemed to be having a good time after those 2 died. In addition to Battler's odd behaviour when speaking about Ange's condition, these situations lead me to believe that the Game Master may be able to affect to some extent the pieces' behaviour. That, or those particular scenes were a lie.
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Old 2009-10-02, 07:59   Link #1025
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Originally Posted by musouka View Post
It's more like gamemasters can nudge pieces. Battler tries to put forth the idea that his actions on the gameboard has nothing to do with himself because Lambda and Bern are in control, but I trust Dlanor--a hell of a lot more than I do Bern and Lambda, I'll tell you that--when she says you can't make a piece do something contrary to their own nature.

So, in other words, Battler has the ability to solve the epitaph without Bern's interference. It's also "in character" for him to show mercy to Dlanor (and whiteknight for Beato).
I don't think that what Dlanor said is incompatible with what Bern said.

In chess you can control pieces and move them according to your will. However you can't make a piece move in a way that it's not possible for them to move. For example you can move a rook in a straight line, but you can't move it diagonally.

Dlanor didn't refute the fact that it was Lambda moving Battler, what she meat to say was: even if it was Lambda that made "you" fight me, the reason you didn't finish me off was because you as piece (because of your moral stands) couldn't do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
The problem with thinking this way is that you have one of two outcomes. Either the laws of physics can be broken, which means the fantasy side wins, or each individual episode has no basis in reality and is basically a movie the game master created.

If it's the latter, then there's almost no point reading this series. It doesn't take that much writing skill to show something and then say that it was totally false. All the time we spend trying to solve the little riddles and closed rooms is completely wasted, and the series ends on a very dull note.

By the way, I'm not implying that all the closed rooms necessarily need to be solvable. However, they've got to be pretty close to reality, enough so that we can make theories that are at least close to the true answer.
I understand your point on the fantasy scenario. However what I am saying is that this fantasy world isn't completely free from any bind to reality. Beatrice set rules that the characters can only do what the real counterparts can do, she also set rules that make the background be the same as in the real world. In other words the various games we see are alternative fictional versions of the reality, rather than alternative realities. These worlds were created to let Battler look at the events from different point of views, but with metaphors of magics included.

It's not like there is that much difference in terms of skill writing. From one side you have a fictional world bound to precise rules, from the other side you have a world taken out from an infinite number of possible realities, and if that wasn't enough there's even a thick layer of fantasy covering it. I really can't see it is all that different. Your interpretation is not totally free from the "it is all made up" problem (only partially, and that "partially" becomes thin and thinner each new episode), and my interpretation isn't completely engulfed by it because Beatrice is using a well defined correspondence with the real world.


As a final note, you are also acknowledging the fact that Beatrice can create fictional worlds, so from Beatrice's perspective why should she bother finding real kakera? What's the point in looking for real alternative scenarios only to cover them with fiction? Isn't it more simple to create them directly? Why would Beatrice do so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
I don't think they necessarily have to believe in the Golden Land. If they remember the events of the previous games, and they are aware of these continuous chains of massacres, then I think it'd be natural for them to just accept these things, and become somewhat stoic. Just take a look at Rika, who basically developed a bitter personality.

What I found odd was not that Shannon and Kanon weren't grieving George's and Jessica's death, but the fact that they (at least Shannon) seemed to be having a good time after those 2 died. In addition to Battler's odd behaviour when speaking about Ange's condition, these situations lead me to believe that the Game Master may be able to affect to some extent the pieces' behaviour. That, or those particular scenes were a lie.
Question: Can we really trust that Shannon and Kanon are aware of the various games? the context where they said that was full of lies, or do you trust that Krauss power raised over nine thousand and knocked out a goat with a single punch?
I don't think that Kanon and Shannon actually remember.
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Old 2009-10-02, 08:23   Link #1026
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Question: Can we really trust that Shannon and Kanon are aware of the various games? the context where they said that was full of lies, or do you trust that Krauss power raised over nine thousand and knocked out a goat with a single punch?
I don't think that Kanon and Shannon actually remember.
If they do remember that explains why have little reaction to the deaths of George and Jessica. They realize that the game board will restart again and they'll be back next time.

However, if that's true then why wouldn't they be more active in trying to stop the murders from occuring in the first place? Answers to that could be that they are involved with the murders somehow or they feel like Rika did sometimes that it's all useless.

Given Krauss's power level over 9000, judo George, and Jessica's fists of fury I would have to agree that some of the stuff in episode 4 was nonsense.
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Old 2009-10-02, 08:30   Link #1027
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There is a high chance that the underground cell "Kyrie's group" was imprisoned inside was in fact part of the metaworld. This would explain why Kanon and Shannon remember past games.

The scenes were you see Shannon and Kanon fighting against the witch or accepting their death are also magic scenes, so they might not have happened at all in the real world.
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Old 2009-10-02, 10:18   Link #1028
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I don't think it's necessary that they remember past worlds at all. Based on the ura tea party we know that the (initial) deaths of Krauss, Genji, and the cousins were faked. If Shannon and Kanon were in on it, then it could be that as far as they know, everyone is still alive.
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Old 2009-10-02, 11:45   Link #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As a final note, you are also acknowledging the fact that Beatrice can create fictional worlds, so from Beatrice's perspective why should she bother finding real kakera? What's the point in looking for real alternative scenarios only to cover them with fiction? Isn't it more simple to create them directly? Why would Beatrice do so?
Spoiler for size:
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Old 2009-10-02, 13:29   Link #1030
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Question: Can we really trust that Shannon and Kanon are aware of the various games? the context where they said that was full of lies, or do you trust that Krauss power raised over nine thousand and knocked out a goat with a single punch?
I don't think that Kanon and Shannon actually remember.
The scene was certainly odd, but it didn't really involve magic I believe. That, and this wasn't the first time previous games were referenced. Satan referenced the first game when she killed Kanon in EP2. Kanon also referenced to various games in EP3 (although, he was talking with Beatrice in that scene, and he was supposed to be dead). There's also Piece-Beatrice in EP4, who told Battler that was the first time they had met in the gameboard.

Anyway, regarding the magic scenes, is it okay to just brush them off? I'm sure we are not supposed to take them at face value, but isn't it possible they may carry some meaning?
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Old 2009-10-02, 14:11   Link #1031
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Now that I don't buy for a second. Kanon seems way too cynical to really believe in the golden land.

I can buy George and Shannon's love being real, I'm just very suspicious of it. And it's also possible it's one-sided, but it's not exactly clear which direction.
Seriously? In EP 2, before Shannon goes to give Suit-Beato her dinner, Kanon basically cries and yells at Shannon for wanting to accept George's proposal, saying that if she does so then she'll make them both lose their chance at getting to the 10th twilight and going to the golden land. Kanon doesn't want to be furniture and believing that Beatrice will absolve that in the Golden Land when the ceremony is over is his only grace and chance at being with Jessica.
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Old 2009-10-02, 14:18   Link #1032
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Well, of course I have no proof for my theory yet.
Well neither do I for mine, and it's not like I have 100% faith in it. But I tell you why I'd rather go with mine right now. It's the same reason you'd rather stick with your, I don't like the alternative.

I don't like the idea that Beatrice can chose kakera the same way Bernkastel did in Higurashi. I don't like the idea that the same theory behind the "time loop" will be used in Umineko as well (lack of originality imho). I find more disturbing the idea that the worlds we have been shown are 10% real and 90% false than the idea that they are completely false. It was reasonable when the falsehood were relegated to the magic scene. It was still reasonable when the falsehood also included non magic scenes as long as it was a fifty-fifty scenario. But now that little assumption of "reality" looks kinda pathetic to me.

If someone tells me a story and says it is a fictional story, no problem with that.
If someone tells me a story and says it is a real story, no problem with that as long as it's really real.
If someone tells me a story and says it's partially true and partially false. No problem with that either. It is challenging and fun to discern the truths from lies.
But if I found out that 90% of that story is false, I have a problem. It pisses me. It is impossible to find out that 10% and it's kinda pointless. It is better to treat the whole story as fake at that point.

If Ryukishi's intention was to make a story the way you describe it, then imho he went way too far with the lies.

I cannot accept the world of Ep5 as real anymore. For the same reason Erika couldn't accept that a man can jump from the third floor like that, that's the only time where I truly empathized with her. And it is not like it was totally impossible. Certainly not impossible for someone like the witch of miracles. However I can't like scenarios that are grounded on events that are almost impossible to happen.
If Erika and all that concerns her really happened, I'm not going to like them. While reading ep5 I knew already that if Ryukishi really was going to tell me that Battler jumped from the third floor like I wouldn't have never approved it. In the end Ryukishi didn't betray my expectations, so I have faith he won't do that in the case of Erika's lame story either.


Quote:
You keep saying that my theory keeps getting harder and harder to use as the episodes go on, but that's the very reason it works. If we use chessboard thinking, we know Ryuukishi wants to up the difficulty a lot. Remember how the EP3 we got was supposedly a much easier version than the original? In other words, the more difficult a theory to argue, the more likely. Of course, any theory that's overly complex is dubious, but I think this one is pretty simple once you get down to it.

It's hard to argue for it, but the theory itself is simple because it's very general.
As you said, the more a theory is complex the higher is the probability that it is wrong. To me your theory looked quite complex and convoluted. But maybe that was because of the long explanation? If you can state it in a few lines without omitting any relevant point I might reconsider my initial judgement.

Quote:
As for Beato's motives in using a minimalist amount of falsehoods, it's very possible (indeed, likely) that there are some rules which prevent the Game Master from creating too many falsehoods. If we assume the kakera theory, at least one real world does exist beneath the falsehoods. Since this is a "game" and it's been stated in red that Beato wants Battler to solve it, then there has to be enough of the real world sticking through to help Battler break through the falsehoods.

Furthermore, she always describes setting up the board like it's a work of art, like a brilliant chessboard layout. It seems to me that totally obscuring the real world takes very little talent (again, if we assume there are one or more real worlds), so if we assume kakera theory exists, we can guess that it's perfectly reasonable for her to try and follow the real world closely, even though we don't know what her true motives are.
I don't think that no real world exists. I think only one real world exists. In other words I refute the idea that this is yet another multiple worlds scenario like in Higurashi.

What I think is that there is one world where the Rokkenjima incident takes place. I don't know all the details but I guess the most important parts, like the persons involved, the general situation, the culprit and his reasons are set in stone.

The "games" then are no different than the letters Beatrice herself wrote. The story in those letters didn't really happen, they were completely fictional, they weren't narration of what happened in alternate realities (unless there's magic at work). In those letters Beatrice used the same scenario and the same characters, but it doesn't change the fact that the stories were made up, probably including hints about the truth, but still made up. The "games" are the same as those letters, that's what I think.

In the end if you open the box the wave function collapses. there can only be a single reality.

For what I know even the events that have been shown about what happened after the Rokkenjima incident aren't true, they might only be likely reconstructions of what would happen if Battler didn't solve the mystery. Maybe the real story stopped at 0.00 of October 6 in the first game.
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Old 2009-10-02, 15:16   Link #1033
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Okay, I think you're misunderstanding my position. I'll try my best not to do the same to yours. But I think you're giving up way too easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't like the idea that Beatrice can chose kakera the same way Bernkastel did in Higurashi. I don't like the idea that the same theory behind the "time loop" will be used in Umineko as well (lack of originality imho). I find more disturbing the idea that the worlds we have been shown are 10% real and 90% false than the idea that they are completely false. It was reasonable when the falsehood were relegated to the magic scene. It was still reasonable when the falsehood also included non magic scenes as long as it was a fifty-fifty scenario. But now that little assumption of "reality" looks kinda pathetic to me.
Spoiler for size:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As you said, the more a theory is complex the higher is the probability that it is wrong. To me your theory looked quite complex and convoluted. But maybe that was because of the long explanation? If you can state it in a few lines without omitting any relevant point I might reconsider my initial judgement.
Spoiler for 5 rules:


I think that sums it up for the most part.
That last bit accounts for gaps in hearsay. If you only hear a partial account of a story, your own imagination makes up the difference. For example, Rosa hears "someone killed Kumasawa and Nanjo...it was something that can't be described in words...the culprit was Kanon and yet not Kanon". In this case, the real course of events is left to her imagination. It's possible that the Game Master is allowed to tweak these unspecified parts.

Also, the major "observer" of magic scenes are the people who read the message bottle letters. If these letters detail every single line in the magic scenes, then this might be the way that the Game Master tweaks those parts.
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Old 2009-10-02, 18:29   Link #1034
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Old 2009-10-02, 19:21   Link #1035
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Given Krauss's power level over 9000, judo George, and Jessica's fists of fury I would have to agree that some of the stuff in episode 4 was nonsense.
George and Jessica's power-ups at least made sense with the way magical physics runs off of belief and force of will. (And I'm pretty sure that George actually does know martial arts.)

Krauss'... did not make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't like the idea that Beatrice can chose kakera the same way Bernkastel did in Higurashi. I don't like the idea that the same theory behind the "time loop" will be used in Umineko as well (lack of originality imho). I find more disturbing the idea that the worlds we have been shown are 10% real and 90% false than the idea that they are completely false. It was reasonable when the falsehood were relegated to the magic scene. It was still reasonable when the falsehood also included non magic scenes as long as it was a fifty-fifty scenario. But now that little assumption of "reality" looks kinda pathetic to me.

If someone tells me a story and says it is a fictional story, no problem with that.
If someone tells me a story and says it is a real story, no problem with that as long as it's really real.
If someone tells me a story and says it's partially true and partially false. No problem with that either. It is challenging and fun to discern the truths from lies.
But if I found out that 90% of that story is false, I have a problem. It pisses me. It is impossible to find out that 10% and it's kinda pointless. It is better to treat the whole story as fake at that point.

If Ryukishi's intention was to make a story the way you describe it, then imho he went way too far with the lies.

I cannot accept the world of Ep5 as real anymore. For the same reason Erika couldn't accept that a man can jump from the third floor like that, that's the only time where I truly empathized with her. And it is not like it was totally impossible. Certainly not impossible for someone like the witch of miracles. However I can't like scenarios that are grounded on events that are almost impossible to happen.

If Erika and all that concerns her really happened, I'm not going to like them. While reading ep5 I knew already that if Ryukishi really was going to tell me that Battler jumped from the third floor like I wouldn't have never approved it. In the end Ryukishi didn't betray my expectations, so I have faith he won't do that in the case of Erika's lame story either.
I agree with... pretty much everything you just said here. Cookie for you.
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Old 2009-10-02, 20:24   Link #1036
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The official poll has started!
http://umineko.locker.jp/vote/
If you love us, vote for the Witch Hunter
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Old 2009-10-02, 20:53   Link #1037
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Old 2009-10-02, 23:11   Link #1038
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I'm pretty sure it's an unspoken tradition to try and make Jessica and Kanon tie, so I voted for Kyanon earlier to bump him up . Looks like they're tied now .

(a Beabato tie at the top would also be nice, but the gap looks rather wide )
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Old 2009-10-03, 00:09   Link #1039
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Spoiler for 5 rules:
I still think this is overly complicated and incomplete. For once, what's the point of all this? I think there's a paradox in the fact that being the kakera infinite no matter how many times you peel them off, they will never get to one. Actually they will remain infinite no matter what. From the way the kakera are described you can't possibly enclose them because they have also infinite dimensions. The rules, the red and gold can only create boundaries at best. And in the end you still have an infinite number of Kakera whom Beatrice can choose from.
Anyway you have at least three different instances in this theory, a formless mass of data that gets refined trough a certain process, then the result gets metabolized by the observer and then a third entity the game master fills the gaps with whatever he likes.

compared to the classic anti-fantasy and anti-mystery perspective it looks more complicated to me. And certainly is more complicated than my theory, well at the very least it is less straightforward and intuitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Bernkastel could not choose Kakera in Higurashi, at least not in a way that's even remotely similar to anything that's happening in Umineko.

I never said a time loop occurs in Umineko, and even if one did, the way in which it has occurred is completely different from Higurashi's. Instead of linearly going through a single kakera, this would be sifting through a large number of them, gradually weeding them out until you end up with one. Presumably, it's the sealed off nature of Rokkenjima that makes this possible

Anyways, I don't think we're actually moving through time in the meta world. If anything, we're just flitting between different groups of kakera each game. The only similarity between the two series is that kakera exist, and since they're both part of When They Cry, I don't see how such a tenuous connection is at all bad.
From the way you describe it... it looks that you give to Beatrice even more power than that of Bernkastel in Higurashi. She couldn't even chose the kakera there, and with your theory Beatrice can even peel off the kakera she doesn't like through rules and red text.

Quote:
90% fake? Come on now. You can easily make theories for EP1-4 where the game board scenes are mostly real. Also, if you assume that even magic scenes have some core of truth to them, you get an even larger percentage of real info.
Spoiler for core of truth:
The core of truth is not an issue to my interpretation because I also state that the fictional worlds represent the core truth. So even with my interpretation you can have 100% true hints, limiting the fantasy to irrelevant details (well technically, in fact I don't think this is the case with Umineko, since red herrings abund).

As for 90% fake I was referring to ep5 alone. But look, if your theory is correct ep5 can't possibly be 90% fake, there's no way such a lame observer exist. So ep5 alone can disprove your theory. Mind that before ep5 I didn't think at all that the games are completely fictional.

As for what it is that I consider fake, well the problem is, if you use the Bernkastel card you can refute everything I say, because for Bernkastel practically anything is possible. What I'm going to state that it is impossible now, you must read it as "normally impossible" or "extremely improbable". After this premise:

Spoiler for size:
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Old 2009-10-03, 01:56   Link #1040
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
From the way you describe it... it looks that you give to Beatrice even more power than that of Bernkastel in Higurashi. She couldn't even chose the kakera there, and with your theory Beatrice can even peel off the kakera she doesn't like through rules and red text.
What makes you the absolute authority on what powers the witches have?
What if Beatrice borrowed the power from Lamdadelta to choose 4 kakera for the purpose of trapping Bernkastel but instead she used that power to show Battler the truth?
If she did borrow powers from Lambda then who knows what she is capable of. We know almost nothing that can be confirmed about the "witch of certainty" Lambdadelta. Really, WHO THE HELL IS SHE?
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