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Old 2009-11-05, 02:34   Link #1561
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Kinzo died in 1985, about a couple days before the October conference if I remember correctly.
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Old 2009-11-05, 02:46   Link #1562
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I was unclear on that. Some things are still clouded.
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Old 2009-11-05, 02:51   Link #1563
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AFAIK they didn't give an exact date for Kinzo's death, but I'm pretty sure it was stated to be in October, which gave Natsuhi barely enough days to figure out how to hide it from the family. As usual Krauss was too much of a wuss to figure anything out.
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Old 2009-11-05, 08:41   Link #1564
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if it happened in October before a family conference then it was 1985. We know that Kinzo was alive in 1984, and we know Kinzo's death was kept secret in the conference before 1986.

Of course this wasn't stated in red but so far Ryukishi never lied about a date, not that I know of.
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Old 2009-11-05, 18:33   Link #1565
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From the EP 4 thread
Quote:
Because I don't think Battler is Kyrie's son at all. Imho Battler is the son of the Beatrice that supposedly died in 1967. Kinzo for some reasons couldn't tell about Beatrice's existence, but once she died he thought about making it so her child could live a normal life. So he asked Rudolf to raise Beatrice's child as if it was his own. Since Asumu's child died prematurely both Rudolf and Asumu accepted to raise this child as if it was Battler Ushiromiya. In other words Asumu knew.

The only one that didn't know a thing was Kyrie. Her child was never born, it was a miscarriage. If it wasn't then her child is someone else. Amakusa for example.
If Beatrice II and Kinzo had a child I say it's better odds that child was given to Natsuhi. According to the game when Kinzo found out that child died he was oddly depressed - the child held significant meaning to him probably.

Miscarriages and Stillborns were called the same thing in the 60's probably. The fact that the game says 'miscarriage' and the anime says 'stillborn' means there's some kind of conflict of interests, but I fully believe the way Kyrie described how she was going to give birth on the same day as Asumu and what not I think Ryukishi intended it to be 'stillborn' rather than 'miscarriage'
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Old 2009-11-05, 18:54   Link #1566
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Well I couldn't say in that thread but in fact that's what Kinzo tried first. He gave that child to Natsuhi and... we know what happened.

I don't think it is a coincidence that both Beatrice and that child fell from a cliff in 1967. Someone must have had some grudge on Beatrice and her offspring. The fact that Kinzo not even for a sec thought it was Natsuhi's fault makes me think Kinzo knows who is behind both incidents.

So I am postulating that someone (Kinzo himself but necessarily him) after the baby survived, contacted Rudolf and proposed this switch. This way everyone would be happy. Rudolf and Asumu would have another child to raise, and the child himself would be still raised as an Ushiromiya without having to worry about the psycho who tried to kill him before.

Quote:
Miscarriages and Stillborns were called the same thing in the 60's probably
Are you sure about this? Anyway it would be useless to check in an english context. for this to have any relevance you need to find proof it was like that in Japan.
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Old 2009-11-05, 19:33   Link #1567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well I couldn't say in that thread but in fact that's what Kinzo tried first. He gave that child to Natsuhi and... we know what happened.

I don't think it is a coincidence that both Beatrice and that child fell from a cliff in 1967. Someone must have had some grudge on Beatrice and her offspring. The fact that Kinzo not even for a sec thought it was Natsuhi's fault makes me think Kinzo knows who is behind both incidents.

So I am postulating that someone (Kinzo himself but necessarily him) after the baby survived, contacted Rudolf and proposed this switch. This way everyone would be happy. Rudolf and Asumu would have another child to raise, and the child himself would be still raised as an Ushiromiya without having to worry about the psycho who tried to kill him before.
Dude that kid fell off a giant cliff. Do you seriously believe it would survive a fall that huge?
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Old 2009-11-05, 19:54   Link #1568
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Someone seems to want Natsuhi to think it survived. However, if this child is Battler...why doesn't Battler know if he's calling Natsuhi?

It is really a puzzle since even Bern had to ask if this was for real to Lambda.
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Old 2009-11-05, 20:10   Link #1569
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Key phrase: "seems to want." One thing that both Natsuhi's and Beatrice's reconstructions agree on is that nobody should have had any idea what really happened. Did the caller ever actually say that he was the child that fell off the cliff?

What if the calls are just a generic attempt to freak Natsuhi out, and the fact that Natsuhi actually had a child nobody knew about was a total coincidence?
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Old 2009-11-05, 20:17   Link #1570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Dude that kid fell off a giant cliff. Do you seriously believe it would survive a fall that huge?
Normally I would say it's very improbable. But we have already seen a lot of very improbable events in Umineko.

Certainly you don't expect someone to survive after jumping from a skyscraper or someone to survive after falling from a boat in the middle of a hurricane, but if there was something that created the condition for this to happen...

In the case of Ange it's been a lot of safety nets, in the case of that kid it could have been a tree or bushes. There are reports of people who survived falls from the tenth floor and still survived because of something that slowed down their fall.
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Old 2009-11-05, 20:28   Link #1571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
or someone to survive after falling from a boat in the middle of a hurricane
On a side note, was it ever declared in red that this actually happened?
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Old 2009-11-05, 20:31   Link #1572
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No, in fact I doubt it XD

But that's also apply to Ange falling from a skyscraper.

Now you may ask me then why I use these examples. Well it's not like I'm 100% sure they didn't happen. If they happened then another similar event could happen. If they didn't happen, then the child falling from the cliff also didn't happen.
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Old 2009-11-05, 20:34   Link #1573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No, in fact I doubt it XD

But that's also apply to Ange falling from a skyscraper.
I think Ange hitting safety nets is far more likely than Erika surviving a hurricane, myself.

But yeah, we don't have red confirmation for a lot of events, come to think of it...
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Old 2009-11-05, 20:39   Link #1574
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Of course we may have become paranoid about the red..or addicted to it...we needs it.
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Old 2009-11-05, 20:43   Link #1575
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Yeah we could open a new thread.

You know that you've been speculating too much about Umineko when...


You ask your girlfriend/boyfriend to repeat in red that s/he didn't cheated on you!
and then you get angry because the fact s/he is unable to repeat it is proof enough that s/he cheated
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Old 2009-11-05, 21:21   Link #1576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Well I couldn't say in that thread but in fact that's what Kinzo tried first. He gave that child to Natsuhi and... we know what happened.

I don't think it is a coincidence that both Beatrice and that child fell from a cliff in 1967. Someone must have had some grudge on Beatrice and her offspring. The fact that Kinzo not even for a sec thought it was Natsuhi's fault makes me think Kinzo knows who is behind both incidents.

So I am postulating that someone (Kinzo himself but necessarily him) after the baby survived, contacted Rudolf and proposed this switch. This way everyone would be happy. Rudolf and Asumu would have another child to raise, and the child himself would be still raised as an Ushiromiya without having to worry about the psycho who tried to kill him before.



Are you sure about this? Anyway it would be useless to check in an english context. for this to have any relevance you need to find proof it was like that in Japan.
But isn't this assuming the child is Kinzo's? Didn't Battler get out of the "You are not Asumu's son" by saying he is his father's child? Or are you saying that Rudolf and Asumu never produced a child, and that Battler is of direct lineage to Kinzo, and that his mother is Beatrice?
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Old 2009-11-05, 21:38   Link #1577
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think it is a coincidence that both Beatrice and that child fell from a cliff in 1967. Someone must have had some grudge on Beatrice and her offspring. The fact that Kinzo not even for a sec thought it was Natsuhi's fault makes me think Kinzo knows who is behind both incidents.

So I am postulating that someone (Kinzo himself but necessarily him) after the baby survived, contacted Rudolf and proposed this switch. This way everyone would be happy. Rudolf and Asumu would have another child to raise, and the child himself would be still raised as an Ushiromiya without having to worry about the psycho who tried to kill him before.
That's what I concluded as well when I first thought about it. It makes no sense that there would be two seperate events that are so identical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kit View Post
But isn't this assuming the child is Kinzo's? Didn't Battler get out of the "You are not Asumu's son" by saying he is his father's child? Or are you saying that Rudolf and Asumu never produced a child, and that Battler is of direct lineage to Kinzo, and that his mother is Beatrice?
Regarding the child, Kinzo said he would recognize the child as his grandson. Therefore, as it was suggested, the child was Battler. The child somehow survived and was raised by Rudolf and Asumu.

Natsuhi referred to Beatrice as a servant when she described her version of the event. Rosa did not mention the baby during her version of the event. The only question I have is why did one of them or both of them lie about the event?
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Old 2009-11-05, 22:11   Link #1578
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I'd really like a dōjin for the red. Not about people saying things in red, but just about red letters. Hmm... delicious red.

Spoiler for My own scenario:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Natsuhi referred to Beatrice as a servant when she described her version of the event. Rosa did not mention the baby during her version of the event. The only question I have is why did one of them or both of them lie about the event?
Perhaps, they were talking about different events, with similar outcomes? I know that sounds terribly stupid, but Rosa went as far as to talk about Kuwadorian, and how she ended up there. Even in EP2, when she met "Beatrice" she was all "Oh, shit, that couldn't have happened" (then you read EP3 and you realise why).
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Old 2009-11-05, 23:22   Link #1579
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Unless it is Rosa that is calling (or set up the caller) to Natsuhi about the child. If Rosa witnessed "Beatrice's" death from falling off a cliff like she states, then if the caller is to be believed...Rosa witnessed that as well.

Did it say baby, or child? As in how old was the child that was suppose to have fallen off the cliff with the servant? While I doubt they'd give Natsuhi anything older than an infant....

What if the child was older...and thus could remember the event. What if it was Rosa that died in that fall...and Rosa, is that child.

(That's way out there and unless she's Beatrice and Kinzo's daughter, then Maria wouldn't be related to anyone at all...aside from adoption of "Rosa" by Natsuhi via Kinzo...thus Rosa would be a cousin of Battler...and Maria would be Kinzo's great-grand daughter)

Weird....no likely....just a random train of thought. Though Kinzo not liking Maria being named that would work if Natsuhi's first child was named Maria...and thus "Rosa" is naming her daughter after herself....
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Old 2009-11-05, 23:35   Link #1580
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kit View Post
But isn't this assuming the child is Kinzo's? Didn't Battler get out of the "You are not Asumu's son" by saying he is his father's child? Or are you saying that Rudolf and Asumu never produced a child, and that Battler is of direct lineage to Kinzo, and that his mother is Beatrice?
I don't remember any red truth stating who is Battler's father. The only thing that seems clear is that Battler is Kinzo's grandson. Although we don't have a totally clear red truth about this either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Regarding the child, Kinzo said he would recognize the child as his grandson. Therefore, as it was suggested, the child was Battler. The child somehow survived and was raised by Rudolf and Asumu.
Yeah that's my theory, but it's still a theory ^^;
The fact that Kinzo said the he would recognize the baby as his grandson is a good hint to support the theory, but unfortunately it doesn't prove it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itherko
Did it say baby, or child? As in how old was the child that was suppose to have fallen off the cliff with the servant? While I doubt they'd give Natsuhi anything older than an infant....
I'm pretty sure it was a baby.
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