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Old 2009-08-16, 17:26   Link #141
June 1983
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I think

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Old 2009-08-16, 17:33   Link #142
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How can Erika use servants (magic) to kill (deny) Beato? Isn't that self-contradicting? :S
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Old 2009-08-16, 17:36   Link #143
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I think

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Old 2009-08-16, 17:38   Link #144
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Sort of a random thought. Beatrice said once that she would kill Battler and asked him to find out who she was. There has also been the phrase "Beatrice is Love" floating around. Now this happens.

Could all be related. Beatrice is Love, and because of that love Battler will risk (or even be) being killed. Killed because of Beatrice. Killed because of love. Perhaps the think that is causing the killings...the lack of love and/or love blinding Battler to the truth (not being able to accept certain things from family).

More things to ponder until December.
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Old 2009-08-16, 17:40   Link #145
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Originally Posted by Bern-chan View Post
How can Erika use servants (magic) to kill (deny) Beato? Isn't that self-contradicting? :S
Yes. Yes it is.
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Old 2009-08-16, 17:45   Link #146
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Originally Posted by Bern-chan View Post
How can Erika use servants (magic) to kill (deny) Beato? Isn't that self-contradicting? :S
Mate, is that the first contradiction you've found? Didn't you find the red text (i.e. the witch's words) contradictory?

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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Sort of a random thought. Beatrice said once that she would kill Battler and asked him to find out who she was. There has also been the phrase "Beatrice is Love" floating around. Now this happens.
It's never been said that "Beatrice is love". What has been said is that "without love, magic cannot be seen."
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Old 2009-08-16, 17:46   Link #147
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Mate, is that the first contradiction you've found? Didn't you find the red text (i.e. the witch's words) contradictory?
Accepting the red text as true is one of the conceits we have to accept to play the game, though.
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Old 2009-08-16, 17:50   Link #148
June 1983
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I do think the contradictory nature of it is intentional though. There's just SO many contradictions of this nature, period, that even though I am anti-fantasy for the solution of the murders, I definitely wouldn't say magic doesn't exist in Umineko. I think the conclusion is going to be more complicated than one side triumphing over the other -- I honestly can't see the story concluding satisfactorily otherwise.
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:03   Link #149
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Spoiler for EP 5:
...Doesn't that stem back from Episode 3, too?

You know, where he stated that he could to an extent accept that Beato had to do it, but he was opposing her primarily because she made a sport of it, being needlessly cruel and sadistic?

At the same time, he was gunning for Eva because Eva-Beatrice was going around and torturing people, and even if it was a separate person, she was still, essentially, Eva. His behavior is consistent, from what I can see.
That's not the point though. Eva-Beatrice is not Eva. She could very well be a red herring planted by Beato, considering what happened at the end of EP 3.

The point is Eva was just as easily as obvious of a culprit as Natsuhi was in EP 5. Fact is Battler is afraid. He obviously doesn't want to believe in witches, but he obviously doesn't want to blame anybody for murder. Not everyone can have a happy ending. Higurashi for example.

Spoiler for End of Higurashi:


Battler has to learn that he can't be a martyr for happiness. Not everyone gets a happy ending. Even in EP 5.

Spoiler for EP 5:
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:30   Link #150
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Hey I've heard some rumours about Battler goin' antagonist on us all, the 'Golden Sorcerer' or something along those lines, anyone got some evidence to back that up?
I'd like to hear your opinions also~.
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:54   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Battler Ushiromiya View Post
Hey I've heard some rumours about Battler goin' antagonist on us all, the 'Golden Sorcerer' or something along those lines, anyone got some evidence to back that up?
I'd like to hear your opinions also~.
Spoiler for uhhh:
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Old 2009-08-16, 18:57   Link #152
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He'll still probably be the protagonist, though. Probably.
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Old 2009-08-16, 19:07   Link #153
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Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
Spoiler for uhhh:
That's quite a misleading spoiler summary you have there. You'll give people the wrong impression.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
He'll still probably be the protagonist, though. Probably.
Definitely, since
Spoiler for Roles:

Last edited by Archer; 2009-08-16 at 19:26.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:03   Link #154
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Also for you guys who were wondering about 譜面

fumen means a musical score (like sheet music).

that's it. only meaning.

fumendai (add 台)is a music stand for sheet music.
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Old 2009-08-16, 23:06   Link #155
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Well,not that most people hava had time enough to be spoiled(at least those who wanted to),what do you think of the game?Did it live up to your expectations?Maybe better?Sub-par?
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:06   Link #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Can you elaborate a bit further on this?
Even when Erika was pressing the point with the Red Truth used with Dlanor, Battler just turns the tide with the Gold Truth.
Even when Battler is still unable to prove with facts that Natsuhi is not the culprit, Battler made Dlanor surrender, advocating that even if Erika has truth, Battler also has his.
Quote:
So, Meta-Beato is still alive?
Unknown. Like Sterling posted in the spoiler thread, Meta Beato (long hair) disappeared after saying "farewell... sorry".
Since Beato is a concept, it is very likely that Meta Battler can "revive" her.
Quote:
Didn't the ending credits state she died in 1998? She was most likely killed by Kasumi and her killers, I think. The magic battle was most likely from Ange's imagination, while she was dying.
Yes, but what I mean: the real events behind her death, because the problem is how it can be interpreted at least 2 ways (I also believe that either Amakusa backstabbed the whole party or Ange was still killed by Kasumi... but since the scroll says only 1998, it is even possible she is killed much later).
Quote:
This is something I'm not sure about. Sure, they've mentioned Knox's rules, but the red and golden truths sort of violate the "All supernatural or preternatural agencies are ruled out as a matter of course."
Actually, it isn't even a "mention". They use it, period.
The anti fantasy side brutally use it to disable completely Piece-Beato in a very ugly way.
In case of Erika and Dlanor, they do not use "real red" because they provide elements that are within the story and the genre: Erika gives facts that cannot be countered and become red, thanks to bern and lambda confirming in red (which can be applied because they "are not" pieces but players).
Battler was unable to claim there is that "man of 19 years ago" unless it is one of the 18 already, because Dlanor pinned him down with Knox commandement n°1.
Rule n°1 and n°8 prevents a dumb "it happened like this!" without anything relevant which would give such conclusion.
Quote:
Yes, they have been used to confirm things that have been shown in the games, which follows the 8th rule, but the fact remains that these coloured truths are pretty much a supernatural factor, because in an actual mystery novel, a detective cannot ask for this kind of confirmation.
This is why Umineko starts to bend both genre as Ryukishi planned: the PLOT itself is mystery and thus follow Knox's commandements, but the story, the execution itself do not follow this. Therefore you can have both assertions even if they are supposed to contradict each other.
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Mate, is that the first contradiction you've found? Didn't you find the red text (i.e. the witch's words) contradictory?
No it isn't a contradiction regarding Erika.
In fact, Erika never used the red ever once (except reciting one provided by Bern, to seize her rights as a detective). She is forced to rely on Dlanor, Gertrude, Cornerlia and Bern. This is actually the point where it diverge from "mystery" and "fantasy" elements. Both are aimed to the same thing: truth. Thus, Erika, the "human side" brought things that are later confirmed in red by the fantasy side and even further confirmed with Dlanor.
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
The point is Eva was just as easily as obvious of a culprit as Natsuhi was in EP 5. Fact is Battler is afraid. He obviously doesn't want to believe in witches, but he obviously doesn't want to blame anybody for murder. Not everyone can have a happy ending. Higurashi for example.
That is correct: Battler finally got back to his initial stance, despite in Ep3 and Ep4, he was completely driven to pin down "Eva" or "anyone with his blue truth".
Quote:
Not everyone gets a happy ending. Even in EP 5.
The "even" is too much: Episode 5 might be the worst situation possible, save Episode 3.
My problem is... if Ryukishi wants a global happy end (everyone except the culprit), it will be helluva hard, considering everyone's backstory. It is extremely depressing, especially for Natsuhi but also Maria/Rosa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battler Ushiromiya View Post
Hey I've heard some rumours about Battler goin' antagonist on us all, the 'Golden Sorcerer' or something along those lines, anyone got some evidence to back that up?
I'd like to hear your opinions also~.
No, Battler is definitely the protagonist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by and618and View Post
Well,not that most people hava had time enough to be spoiled(at least those who wanted to),what do you think of the game?Did it live up to your expectations?Maybe better?Sub-par?
I would say... it betrayed my expectations, in a good and bad way (a lot more on the good side though).
Like Sterling said, you cannot consider chiru as "answer" because it is nowhere similar what Kai was to Higurashi.

Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-08-17 at 00:21.
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:24   Link #157
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My problem is... if Ryukishi wants a global happy end (everyone except the culprit), it will be helluva hard, considering everyone's backstory. It is extremely depressing, especially for Natsuhi but also Maria/Rosa.
I am trying to figure out if this is headed for the 'happy global ending' or more of a bitter sweet style - As you said it would seem hard , but I suppose from my view point a happy ending would be one, where pasts would have to be overcome - thus again making it hard- I wonder which it really will be (Or I suppose which type is the more plausible probability wise- though I admit I am hoping for the happy style heh)
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:37   Link #158
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Finally finished reading ep5. I like it, but mainly becuase of the end.

I think there's a spoiler thread for the elements, so I'll just post my thoughts and comments.

Spoiler for thoughts & comments:



Spoiler for speculation and early deductions:
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:39   Link #159
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Let's review the issue:
1) Krauss: he won so many loser flags that I can only say: he is a moron, period.
Honestly, he is a total idiot and is probably the main reason why things turn south in Umineko. All Ushiromiya assets (except the gold) are mortgaged. They have nothing and in 1984-5, they could be kicked out anytime.
The only solution for him is when they got the gold, but this part is actually a problem with the culprit (they certainly don't care about the gold, but it is a driving force for the batshit murders)
2) Natsuhi: since Kinzo is in the grave, there is no way for her to have a happy end, unless she finally realize that her delusion is nothing but a mere way to find a "compensation" to her shitty life.
I think the only way to fix that is Jessica, and to some extent Krauss and Eva.
3) Jessica: too much linked to what happen with the stupid inheritence. It would require Krauss and Natsuhi's "good end" for hers with Kanon, heck Kanon needs to go forward for this.
4) Eva: If Krauss can relinquish the title of the "head", which IS possible, it would be fine.
5) hideyoshi: money
6) George: should not be a problem
7) Rudolf: money + a matter related to Battler I assume
8) Kyrie: ditto
9) Rosa: Hard mode. Money + Maria + love. And I cannot see her "genuinely" loving Maria anytime.
10) Maria: everything is about Rosa, and if the "evil witch" is defeated, it is very likely her obsession with magic will be left aside.
11) Shannon: see George
12) Kanon: needs to get past the furniture issue
13) Nanjo: money (?) (for his grand daughter)
14) Genji: not hard
15) Gohda: not hard
16) Kumasawa: hard to say
17) Kinzo: impossible in "reality", but possible if his legacy is honored.
18) Battler: truth about his birth (?)
19) Beatrice: exist without screwing Meta Battler victory condition
20) Meta Battler: proving the culprit is not a witch, but also not "human"... (probably a multi chain of culprits). Must also be the one to defeat Beato
21) Erika: proving the culprit is human
22) Lambda: eternal game => impossible and Episode 5 hints that she actually doesn't mind if she loses
23) Bern: Crushing Beato, converge with Battler's objective, but contradict with the means etc.

And I believe my list is oversimplifying the headlines.
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:39   Link #160
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Even when Erika was pressing the point with the Red Truth used with Dlanor, Battler just turns the tide with the Gold Truth.
Even when Battler is still unable to prove with facts that Natsuhi is not the culprit, Battler made Dlanor surrender, advocating that even if Erika has truth, Battler also has his.
Wait, wait, wait. So, Erika used the Red Truth, but Battler overlooked it, because he has his own? What?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Unknown. Like Sterling posted in the spoiler thread, Meta Beato (long hair) disappeared after saying "farewell... sorry".
Since Beato is a concept, it is very likely that Meta Battler can "revive" her.
I see; so, both Piece-Beato and Meta-Beato died.

Anyway, what would Battler revive her again? To kill her himself? Seriously, everyone in the Meta-world is very, very fickle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Yes, but what I mean: the real events behind her death, because the problem is how it can be interpreted at least 2 ways (I also believe that either Amakusa backstabbed the whole party or Ange was still killed by Kasumi... but since the scroll says only 1998, it is even possible she is killed much later).
Ah, I see, the exact cause of her death? We've also need to know what exactly she saw one the Captain's house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
Actually, it isn't even a "mention". They use it, period.
The anti fantasy side brutally use it to disable completely Piece-Beato in a very ugly way.
In case of Erika and Dlanor, they do not use "real red" because they provide elements that are within the story and the genre: Erika gives facts that cannot be countered and become red, thanks to bern and lambda confirming in red (which can be applied because they "are not" pieces but players).
Battler was unable to claim there is that "man of 19 years ago" unless it is one of the 18 already, because Dlanor pinned him down with Knox commandement n°1.
Rule n°1 and n°8 prevents a dumb "it happened like this!" without anything relevant which would give such conclusion.
I wasn't talking about the game they're playing, but about Umineko. But, I guess now I understand what you meant with the Knox rules being in play.

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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
This is why Umineko starts to bend both genre as Ryukishi planned: the PLOT itself is mystery and thus follow Knox's commandements, but the story, the execution itself do not follow this. Therefore you can have both assertions even if they are supposed to contradict each other.
Yeah

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
No it isn't a contradiction regarding Erika.
In fact, Erika never used the red ever once (except reciting one provided by Bern, to seize her rights as a detective). She is forced to rely on Dlanor, Gertrude, Cornerlia and Bern. This is actually the point where it diverge from "mystery" and "fantasy" elements. Both are aimed to the same thing: truth. Thus, Erika, the "human side" brought things that are later confirmed in red by the fantasy side and even further confirmed with Dlanor.
I know, I was talking about us the players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
My problem is... if Ryukishi wants a global happy end (everyone except the culprit), it will be helluva hard, considering everyone's backstory. It is extremely depressing, especially for Natsuhi but also Maria/Rosa.
Well, in Higurashi, the characters too had some sad backgrounds, but they managed to decide to work on them. All the same, Higurashi worked in a different way.

I think it also depends on what you mean by happy ending. For example, for me, as long as the characters manage to get a future in which they can build hope, that's a happy ending.
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