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Old 2009-12-28, 16:51   Link #1801
Knicknevin
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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
Well, she was giving out major hints like she did in EP3, despite having stated in that game that she wasn't that interested in solving it, and how did she get in the tunnel at the same time as Eva?

In related news, head hurts. What the hell is going on? How can anything that Erika does make sense? How are the witches able to screw this much with the kakera while following the rules?
In real world terms, Erika made it to the island pretty much on pure luck. Since it happens after the game starts, the conditions can change from game to game.

In Eps 1-4, she probably died out in the ocean, or never fell from the boat in the first place. Lambda said Erika 'didn't exist' but I think that's only in terms of the game board. Her showing up alters the '17 people' condition, but does not violate the red. The condition simply changed to '18 people'.
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Old 2009-12-28, 16:54   Link #1802
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oh thanks for the quick answer, guess i`ll have to have older gamer bfore i start theory-making
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:00   Link #1803
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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
Battler could not be the culprit for episodes 1 through 4 because he was the detective, but since he was NOT the detective for EP5 he could have been the culprit (although that possibility is denied in red).
One quip: Asumu had a child named Ushiromiya Battler. But the Battler we know isn't Asumu's son. Red pertaining to 'Battler' could be misleading.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:05   Link #1804
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
One quip: Asumu had a child named Ushiromiya Battler. But the Battler we know isn't Asumu's son. Red pertaining to 'Battler' could be misleading.
This may be true for episodes 1 through 4, but I believe in EP5 Battler is Battler is Battler, because he was being controlled by Lambdadelta and then immediately transitioned to Meta-Battler.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:08   Link #1805
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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
I don't ever remember there being a red statement saying "the culprit must be the same for all games." There were a few statements saying a few conditions applied to all games (such as Kinzo's death status), but nothing about "the culprit remains constant". Most likely, the culprit changes from game to game. Battler could not be the culprit for episodes 1 through 4 because he was the detective, but since he was NOT the detective for EP5 he could have been the culprit (although that possibility is denied in red).
I really don't think the culprit is the same for all games. Game 3 in particular strongly hints that the original culprit messed up at some point, and was replaced with someone else. (Possibly Eva, but the more I think about it, the more it seems that that's just an attempt to mislead the reader, and she wasn't actually the one responsible.) Still, the fact that Game 3 was the only one (well, we don't know if Game 5 did, obviously, though it probably wouldn't have, seeing as it seemed to get "hijacked" in a similar way [note the crappy magic circle, for one thing]) that didn't get a letter in a bottle really does reinforce the theory that something went very wrong at some point.

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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
This may be true for episodes 1 through 4, but I believe in EP5 Battler is Battler is Battler, because he was being controlled by Lambdadelta and then immediately transitioned to Meta-Battler.
Meta-Battler is Battler from Game 1, isn't he? Or at least, it really seemed that way. (With Beato challenging him in EP1's Tea Party and whatnot.) Also, Piece-Battler was always "connected" to Meta-Battler in a sense. You could see in a few earlier episodes places like that too, where Meta-Battler would think of something, and then it would transition to Piece-Battler explaining the same thing to everyone on the gameboard.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:11   Link #1806
Proto
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Originally Posted by vandakiara View Post
But isn't the man already on the island and supposedly introduced from the begining?

On another note...

I was reading the Beatrice discussion thread and then I saw something Jan Poo wrote a few months ago:

"The name "Beatrice" refers to the character from Dante's Divine Comedy. However almost all the characters in that book were persons that really existed and Beatrice makes no exception. Could this Beatrice be the same Beatrice Dante fell in love with? That would be an interesting development, but that Beatrice was supposed to be angelic and certainly not a witch XD."

wasn't Dante also mentioned in this EP? can anyone remind me exactly how it was? From what I remember it was Battler who mentioned him in the Tea Party or in the ???.. It had something to do with waiting...
I'm surprised that people are surprised by such an elementary literature fact. (why would people think the ending was claled la divina tragedia anyway?) Then again I had never given importance to this homage till this game, where it seems that it is more than just an interesting reference.

If we are to follow this reasoning, Dante had to go through Hell and Purgatory (the first games?) since in his initial state he could not reach his beloved Beatrice

The first verse of the poem:

Quote:
In the middle of this our mortal life,
I found me in a gloomy world, astray
Gone from the pact direct, and e'en to tell
It were no easy task, how savage wild
That forest, how robust and rough in its growth,
Which to remember only, my dismay
Renews in bitterness not far from death
Yet to discourse of what there good befell
It is an interesting read; although, in Erika's words, it would be boring if Battler's sin with Beato was the same Dante had with Beatrice, which simply was to never have the courage to confess his love. Bleh.

Last edited by Proto; 2009-12-28 at 17:22.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:20   Link #1807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
One quip: Asumu had a child named Ushiromiya Battler. But the Battler we know isn't Asumu's son. Red pertaining to 'Battler' could be misleading.
This is what's bugging me. It's what led me to think: Is this mysterious caller the other Ushiromiya Battler? I don't remember if there was red denying telephone communication to the outside, though. If there is, either someone is imitating him during the conference, is actually someone we've been introduced to on the island, or by some miracle has sneaked in through the holes of the red truth.

Firstly, if Kinzo were to accept this orphan as Krauss' son, it would make sense that the orphan be given the Ushiromiya name.

Secondly, if this 'orphan' was actually born from Asumu, that would be probably be enough for Kinzo to recognize him as the next heir to the family. I don't know whether anyone would put it past Kinzo to accept any random orphan as the child of the head family.

I love musing like this
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:40   Link #1808
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Originally Posted by Vega Lyra View Post
This is what's bugging me. It's what led me to think: Is this mysterious caller the other Ushiromiya Battler? I don't remember if there was red denying telephone communication to the outside, though. If there is, either someone is imitating him during the conference, is actually someone we've been introduced to on the island, or by some miracle has sneaked in through the holes of the red truth.

Firstly, if Kinzo were to accept this orphan as Krauss' son, it would make sense that the orphan be given the Ushiromiya name.

Secondly, if this 'orphan' was actually born from Asumu, that would be probably be enough for Kinzo to recognize him as the next heir to the family. I don't know whether anyone would put it past Kinzo to accept any random orphan as the child of the head family.

I love musing like this


The scenario I'm thinking of goes like this- the orphan that Natsuhi was given care of was just some random child Kinzo picked up at the Fukuin House. After Natsuhi shoved the maid and baby off the cliff, the baby survived. Kinzo was impressed by the childs luck, had him cared for at Kuwadorian for a while, and later decided to use him to deal with another problem that had come up- Rudolph had two girlfriends, and both of them were pregnant. But when the two of them went into labor, Kyrie miscarried. Asumu gave birth, but the baby inherited the same weak constitution or illness that Asumu later died from, and died shortly after Rudolph married her. The baby Kinzo had kept in secret was then passed to Rudolph and Asumu to care for, and inherited the name given to the child he replaced- Ushiromiya Battler.

Rudolph thought Battler inheriting the house and receiving the ring from Kinzo was pretty hilarious. He couldn't stop laughing about it- the adopted son taking over the family ahead of all the blood relatives.

One snag- Battler is supposed to be 'Kinzo's grandson'. And Ange can call him her brother with the red. Maybe the theory that Fukuin House was keeping illegitimate children of Rudolph/the Ushiromiyas isn't totally off.

While I'm thinking about it, Battler even made it clear himself, with some help from Jessica- the code on the door and on those accounts, 07151129, seems to be referring to birthdays. Jessica confirmed that November 29 wasn't the birthday of any of the servants. Eva, Battler and Nanjo verified the birthdays of everyone else on the island. But maybe it's like this- July 15 is the birthday of Asumu's child, but the Battler we know was born November 29 of the previous year. July 15 is just his legal birthday.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:42   Link #1809
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
And Ange can call him her brother with the red.
I have an issue with this one point. "It's not blood that matters! It's bonds!" Ange said something to that effect. I would not be surprised if Kanon could call Shannon "sister" in Red if he wanted to.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:44   Link #1810
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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
I have an issue with this one point. "It's not blood that matters! It's bonds!" Ange said something to that effect. I would not be surprised if Kanon could call Shannon "sister" in Red if he wanted to.
Point taken. I think that is the case as well, but if it's not, I wanted to have that base covered already.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:46   Link #1811
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
Point taken. I think that is the case as well, but if it's not, I wanted to have that base covered already.
I certainly do enjoy your theory. It has powerful implications for the plot, and it can solve a number of little background riddles (Battler's true family, the secret of the Fukuin house, Natsuhi and the boy, possibly even the Young Man).

edit: Although, is it necessary for the boy to have survived? Why does Kinzo have to raise him in secret? Could Battler have just been another orphan from the Fukuin House?
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:52   Link #1812
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Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
I certainly do enjoy your theory. It has powerful implications for the plot, and it can solve a number of little background riddles (Battler's true family, the secret of the Fukuin house, Natsuhi and the boy, possibly even the Young Man).

edit: Although, is it necessary for the boy to have survived? Why does Kinzo have to raise him in secret? Could Battler have just been another orphan from the Fukuin House?
I don't like the idea that Battler is an orphan from the Fukuin House. The entire point of him being able to fight against Beatrice is that he's Kinzo's grandson. Considering the entire "Asumu isn't your mom which means you aren't Kinzo's grandson" it means that Battler can't be adopted to be Beatrice's opponent.

Besides Battler probably doesn't think he's the 19th person either. He only used that theory in order to make two truths, which would allow him to fight Erika. I doubt he's actually serious about being the guy harassing Natsuhi, especially if he wants to save her so much
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:53   Link #1813
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Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
In real world terms, Erika made it to the island pretty much on pure luck. Since it happens after the game starts, the conditions can change from game to game.
That part I get. What about her using red, mentioning the gameboard, seeming to know that she is in a detective story, etc.? Can all these things have actually happened in real life? Are the rules of Beatrice's game, which seem to have been consistent for the question arc, able to make these things occur or seem to have occurred? And if this is all some sort of an illusion, what can we trust? The red, but without the game, coudn't it refer to anything?

I did know that this was coming, but seeing it play out onscreen, I've been driving myself insane trying to find loopholes to allow it. Or maybe I'm recovering from my favorite theory being crushed.
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:53   Link #1814
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
I don't like the idea that Battler is an orphan from the Fukuin House. The entire point of him being able to fight against Beatrice is that he's Kinzo's grandson. Considering the entire "Asumu isn't your mom which means you aren't Kinzo's grandson" it means that Battler can't be adopted to be Beatrice's opponent.
What if Battler is an illegitimate son of [Kinzo Child X], sent to the Fukuin house, given to Rudolf for [Family Problem X], and is therefore still a grandson?

edit: Devil'sProofDevil'sProofDevil'sProof
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Old 2009-12-28, 17:56   Link #1815
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Originally Posted by imaginari View Post
That part I get. What about her using red, mentioning the gameboard, seeming to know that she is in a detective story, etc.? Can all these things have actually happened in real life? Are the rules of Beatrice's game, which seem to have been consistent for the question arc, able to make these things occur or seem to have occurred? And if this is all some sort of an illusion, what can we trust? The red, but without the game, coudn't it refer to anything?

I did know that this was coming, but seeing it play out onscreen, I've been driving myself insane trying to find loopholes to allow it. Or maybe I'm recovering from my favorite theory being crushed.
Battler was the one who saw the red text. Battler's POV isn't reliable in EP 5. You can consider it similar to a fantasy scene in that way. Battler might have just been pushed back by Erika, rather than blown away.

Then again considering the end of the game when we find out about the 1st twilight, I think we need to question what exactly a 'fantasy scene' means. It seems that everyone in that room that witnesses the 'corpses' engaged in an elaborate group lie, especially since the five people inside weren't dead. Genji's death is also questionable since Erika never saw the corpse. We know they definietly died, but when did they die is the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arachanox View Post
What if Battler is an illegitimate son of [Kinzo Child X], sent to the Fukuin house, given to Rudolf for [Family Problem X], and is therefore still a grandson?

edit: Devil'sProofDevil'sProofDevil'sProof
Well that means he would need to be the son of either Krauss, Rosa or Eva.

Rosa was only in middle school when Battler was born, so she's immediately out.
Krauss and Natsuhi were having enough problems giving birth to Jessica.
Eva was already raising George with Hideyoshi, so I don't see why she needs a second child. The entire point of having George so early was to get Hideyoshi into the family.

Honestly I don't understand why Rudolf can't be his father. The family has noted they share resemblance to each other (Battler getting a growth spurt only in his mid-teens like Rudolf, facial similarities and then Battler and Ange both have the same hair color) and I know Beato never agreed to Ange's blue with red, but I think it's one of those "well no duh" things so it doesn't have to be in red.
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Old 2009-12-28, 18:02   Link #1816
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Genji's death is also questionable since Erika never saw the corpse. We know they definietly died, but when did they die is the question.
More important, Erika never saw the seal broken and never saw it unbroken, for that matter (since Eva is the one who set it). There is red text saying it wasn't broken until morning, but once it is broken Genji is free to do whatever he wants until he dies somewhere.
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Old 2009-12-28, 18:02   Link #1817
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Battler was the one who saw the red text. Battler's POV isn't reliable in EP 5. You can consider it similar to a fantasy scene in that way. Battler might have just been pushed back by Erika, rather than blown away.
But if a scene can include someone in the room and not be in their POV, then I don't know if I've seen anything in Erika's POV yet.
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Old 2009-12-28, 18:07   Link #1818
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But if a scene can include someone in the room and not be in their POV, then I don't know if I've seen anything in Erika's POV yet.
Actually most of the game is in her vision, but only after the 1st twilight. For example she went into the room and saw the bodies, but didn't see the slashes in their neck because they were covered up by a blanket.

I know people use that though to argue Shkannon still holding ground, but I think EP 5 Ryukishi sought to destroy it. Erika did see them in the same room together at the same time (the study room, the parlor, etc) so I think we can say it's dead in all honesty.
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Old 2009-12-28, 18:16   Link #1819
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Arrow

I wonder about something in the Ep5 VN of Umineko...

In the Ep, Battler
Spoiler for Ep5 Spoiler:


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Old 2009-12-28, 18:20   Link #1820
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Originally Posted by ElderKain View Post
I wonder about something in the Ep5 VN of Umineko...

In the Ep, Battler
Spoiler for Ep5 Spoiler:


They didn't mean literally.

What they meant was what happened to Battler seemed to be the same thing Battler did to Beatrice. He was given no room to put in a theory nor was he given any mercy. He was also pierced and essentially killed, but not dead (he was only dead because he wasn't thinking apparently).
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