AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-01-07, 09:06   Link #241
Hellbore
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
I think the time factor alone would pose enormous challenges for any Earth-launched counterattack on Pandora. As you said, it takes at least five years (it's closer to just-over six actually, if the ISVs travel at around 0.7 times the speed of light) to fly from Earth to Pandora. Which means we're talking about an at least 10-year grace period before a potential invasion: five years for the deported crew of the mining facility to get back to Earth (and for them to alert headquarters about the loss of their facility), and another five years for an assembled invasion force to return to Pandora — if at all.

Even if we suppose that the deported Earthlings manage to send an SOS ahead of them, that alert would still take at least 4.4 years to get to Earth, assuming that Pandora is in the Alpha Centauri system. That gives Earth a just-under two-year head start to prepare its forces before the deported miners return home.

Whichever way you look at it, the Na'vi victory is whole lot more decisive than it seem at first glance. Ten Earth years is a lot of time — and for all we know, that's time enough for Pandora life to recover from their combat losses, and then some.

(By the way, since I'm no expert, I'm curious whether time dilation would be a factor as well, since the ISVs are travelling at close to lightspeed. To the miners, it may seem as though only six years have passed since their banishment from Pandora, but to Earthlings, maybe several more years would have passed since the loss of their unobtainium source?)

So, far more than logistics, I think the lack of timely communication would pose far greater challenges to any potential counterattack. This is an age-old problem that every large empire has faced. You need only look at the history of the globe-spanning British East India Company, for example, to extrapolate the kinds of problems a space-age megacorporation might similarly face.
Both of your concerns are adressed by whomever wrote the Pandorapedia article on the ISV Venture Star.

Quoting the relevant parts

Quote:
Mission Duration: 6.75 + 1.0 + 6.75 = 14.5 Earth years. However, relativistic effects shorten the time onboard ship to slightly less than 6 years each way.
Quote:
Superluminal Communications:

Very low bit-rate up- and downlink using McKinney quantum entanglement encoding.
__________________


On Compromise: Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.
Hellbore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 09:59   Link #242
TinyRedLeaf
. . .
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellbore View Post
Both of your concerns are adressed by whomever wrote the Pandorapedia article on the ISV Venture Star.

Quote:
Superluminal Communications:
Very low bit-rate up- and downlink using McKinney quantum entanglement encoding.
The above doesn't tell me very much, and it certainly doesn't say how long it takes to send a message from Pandora to Earth.

Furthermore, it's a fudge on the writers' part, since superluminal communication is currently thought to be impossible. I don't see how Earth scientists could have figured out how to push data at faster-than-light velocities without finding a corresponding solution for the ISVs. Granted, data has no mass so, theoretically, it's easier to make it travel at light speed (actually, it already does) than for a spaceship. But at faster than light speed? How did they make that happen?

As for the bit about how the crew of an ISV perceives time, so what if a one-way journey to and from Pandora feels like a trip that takes less than six years to them? From Earth's perspective, it will still take at least that much time to get to Pandora.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2010-01-07 at 10:18.
TinyRedLeaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 10:15   Link #243
TrueKnight
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
What's to prove? This is all basic physics. At relativistic velocities golf balls launched from my ship have the kinetic energy to level cities. It's much more economical in this circumstance to pack a metric ton of golf balls than 25 metric tons of H-bombs.
And this is proven in the our present current technology instead of theories? Links that any military in this world has really applied them and battle proven? Or is it really limited to space technology only? So far the deadliest WMDs the humans ever produced are still the Nukes and H-bombs. The radiation caused by it would be more than enough to kill off an entire ecology which would take hundreds of years to be habitable again. Then again it won’t be viable if you want to start a mining colony and develop cost efficient manufacturing within Pandora.

The weapons technology in the Avatar universe seems didn’t recognize or develop laser or energy weaponry, but instead they focus on projectiles and missiles. So in a sense we can still relate with the RDA and humans weaponry because the specs are quite between our time and them, with the exception of space technology, human/biological engineering, robots/exoskeletons or visual monitors.

And for earth to launch a massive invasion, aside with R&D with the load-up capacity to solve their logistical problems, they better ready to mass produce a huge amount of cryonics hibernation system within their fleets lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf
As for the bit about how the crew of an ISV perceives time, so what if a one-way journey to and from Pandora feels like a trip that takes less than six years to them?
I think it’s already solved with the cyronic hibernation stuff. You put people in a refrigerator like tube and voila, you manage to manipulate time perceiving with your body’s still in good condition.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic18330_3.gif

Last edited by TrueKnight; 2010-01-07 at 10:30.
TrueKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 11:38   Link #244
karthak
Baruk Khazad
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
The weapons technology in the Avatar universe seems didn’t recognize or develop laser or energy weaponry, but instead they focus on projectiles and missiles. So in a sense we can still relate with the RDA and humans weaponry because the specs are quite between our time and them, with the exception of space technology, human/biological engineering, robots/exoskeletons or visual monitors.
For all we know humans in the Avatarverse might well have "sharks with fricking laser beams on their heads". It's mentioned in the backstory that they mainly have to use late 21st century tech on Pandora, because the older models work a lot better than the new, fancy stuff due to Pandora's different gravity, atmosphere, and magnetic fields etc.

Like they say about the scorpion gunship:
The AT-99 “Scorpion” Gunship is a highly maneuverable Mosquito-class missile platform. It is a late twenty first century airframe, developed in a period when UCAV’s were being phased out due to EMP ground-to-air weaponry falling into the hands of insurgents and terrorists, which required human pilots to be re-instated into combat aircraft after eight decades of Unmanned Aerial Combat Vehicles. Because all vehicles used on Pandora are manufactured in situ using stereolithography production techniques, it was necessary to choose vehicles from amongst 21st century designs that did not require the exotic materials technology of the mid-22nd century warfighting airframes. http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/scorpion_gunship
karthak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 11:40   Link #245
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
And this is proven in the our present current technology instead of theories? Links that any military in this world has really applied them and battle proven? Or is it really limited to space technology only?
...you're asking me if anyone has ever tested the effect of relativistic weapons? Well seeing as how accelerating something up to relativistic velocity would take several times the entire energy output the the human race can generate at the moment, I'll go for broke and say that no, there hasn't been much opportunity to witness first hand what RKKV's do.


I will point out that the effect of RKKV's can be calculated.


There's a good quote on that page to.

Spoiler for RKKV:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
So far the deadliest WMDs the humans ever produced are still the Nukes and H-bombs.
Perhaps because at this moment humanity doesn't have the energy required to accelerate something to relativistic speeds. Nuke's become small time when you can do that for heavy masses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
And for earth to launch a massive invasion, aside with R&D with the load-up capacity to solve their logistical problems, they better ready to mass produce a huge amount of cryonics hibernation system within their fleets lol.
This isn't just a problem you can go "well R&D a solution". You're talking about just developing a massively superior technology at the drop of the hat.

This is like suggesting to the ancient Egyptians that they develop C-130 transport planes so they can organize a massive invasion of South East Asia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
The radiation caused by it would be more than enough to kill off an entire ecology which would take hundreds of years to be habitable again.
Radiation from conventional nukes is an overrated way to wipe things out. You'll notice that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still habitable cities and despite being considered unsafe to live in for a long time, loads of animals lived in Chernobyl and actually flourished better than usual because they didn't have to compete with humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
The weapons technology in the Avatar universe seems didn’t recognize or develop laser or energy weaponry, but instead they focus on projectiles and missiles. So in a sense we can still relate with the RDA and humans weaponry because the specs are quite between our time and them, with the exception of space technology, human/biological engineering, robots/exoskeletons or visual monitors.
There are two reasons for that.

Firstly Pandora has crazy magnetic fields at work, which prevent really crazy high tech equipment from working. So they go with older mid 21st century designs due to their higher reliability.

A more subtle reason for this, is logistical. When You've got to construct almost all of your equipment on planet with a limited industrial base, it's probably going to be more practical to construct older hardware that will be easier to maintain and construct than the cutting edge stuff.

Last edited by Roger Rambo; 2010-01-07 at 11:56.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 11:43   Link #246
justinstrife
Queen Sheryl's Protector
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: John Galt Railroad
Age: 34
Send a message via AIM to justinstrife Send a message via Skype™ to justinstrife
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Another thing to consider is that the Pandora mining operation needed some very big equipment to do them mining.



I really doubt the humans are going to manage "massive invasion force" plus "multiple pieces of skyscraper sized mining equipment".

So the invasion force has to restart the mining operations all by themselves, which by itself will take years.

The losses the entire Pandoran biosphere took pushing the human presence off planet are inconsequential. In the grand scheme of things they literally lost nothing.
I'm not a physics expert either sadly.

Yep, except now the logistical constraint is even worse.

And the RDA are dealing with a native population homogeneous enough in their social/political views that employing the locals as soldiers against each other isn't viable.
Why would the military restart mining operations by themselves? Do you even listen to your arguments?

Once they took over Pandora Earth could send another wave of ships for mining purposes.
justinstrife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 11:58   Link #247
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
Once they took over Pandora Earth could send another wave of ships for mining purposes.
Which means it would take even longer for the mining operation to get restarted.

First you gotta organize the invasion fleet. Then you gotta wait for the invasion fleet to get there. Then you gotta organize the mining fleet. Then you gotta wait for the mining fleet to get there. Then you gotta wait for mining operations to get restarted. AND THEN you gotta wait for the shipments to get back to earth.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 12:07   Link #248
TrueKnight
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Perhaps because at this moment humanity doesn't have the energy required to accelerate something to relativistic speeds. Nuke's become small time when you can do that for heavy masses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
This isn't just a problem you can go "well R&D a solution". You're talking about just developing a massively superior technology at the drop of the hat.

This is like suggesting to the ancient Egyptians that they develop C-130 transport planes so they can organize a massive invasion of South East Asia.
I don’t get it. You’re saying that an RKVV would be relatively possible even if its not combat proven, because in the future it could happen. But at the same time you’re being closed minded about the possibility of the humans to pour their funds in R&D developing a logistical solution for the transportation, which they have done previously by developing the ISV? Just what are you getting at? You’re saying that your theory is the only the acceptable and most possible or correct one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Radiation from conventional nukes is an overrated way to wipe things out. You'll notice that Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still habitable cities and despite being considered unsafe to live in for a long time, loads of animals lived in Chernobyl and actually flourished better than usual because they didn't have to compete with humans.
I don’t get it, Nagasaki and Hiroshima are only two nuclear warheads. Right now humanity has more than a thousand active and battle proven warheads. A thousand warhead are not enough to wipe out an entire planetary ecology?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
There are two reasons for that.

Firstly Pandora has crazy magnetic fields at work, which prevent really crazy high tech equipment from working. So they go with older mid 21st century designs due to their higher reliability.

A more subtle reason for this, is logistical. When You've got to construct almost all of your equipment on planet with a limited industrial base, it's probably going to be more practical to construct older hardware that will be easier to maintain and construct than the cutting edge stuff.
Again, its not that Earth has lost all its capabilities constructing older models like the Scorpions. You don’t have to construct them at Pandora, but simply construct them at Earth and then transport them to Pandora.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic18330_3.gif
TrueKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 12:08   Link #249
justinstrife
Queen Sheryl's Protector
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: John Galt Railroad
Age: 34
Send a message via AIM to justinstrife Send a message via Skype™ to justinstrife
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Which means it would take even longer for the mining operation to get restarted.

First you gotta organize the invasion fleet. Then you gotta wait for the invasion fleet to get there. Then you gotta organize the mining fleet. Then you gotta wait for the mining fleet to get there. Then you gotta wait for mining operations to get restarted. AND THEN you gotta wait for the shipments to get back to earth.
If humans believe that material on Pandora is worth the effort, they will pay whatever cost to get it. It's just how we are. I'm not so quick to write off nuclear weapons being used as an idea either as I'm sure their robotics is now at the level, where humans don't even need to be operating the heavy machinery for mining. So radiation wouldn't be as big as a concern.
justinstrife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 13:07   Link #250
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
When I actually heard them using the word "Unobtainium" in the movie.... I wondered why they didn't go for it with "Illudium Phosdex" (the shaving cream atom).

Here's a nice list of fictional elements and materials on Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...omic_particles

Heh, the thread is starting to sound like old Star Trek "rationalization" science/engineering discussion panels.

Just some random notes:
0.7c is not fast enough for very much time dilation - hence the need for deep-freeze (food, boredom). The formula involves no rocket science:
delta t1 = delta t2 / sqrt[1 - v**2/c**2] where v = 0.7c. That assumes constant velocity when actually they would spend the first part of the trip accelerating from "zero" and the last part decelerating to "zero", making it even slower.

Its not clear what the cost of shipping mass across interstellar space is so that hampers the discussion.

FTL communication has a lot more basis in possibility than moving any mass at FTL but so far the universe seems iron-clad in preventing any information transfer that helps *us* (though it may be intrinsic to making the universe work).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superluminal_communication

The low bit-rate plot device has some validity since we're discovering right now that the problem of communication via entanglement is "hard" (or maybe impossible) and that quantum computing is "moderately hard".

Politics - if the masses are able to get video of the contractor troops decimating the Home Tree and shooting the Navi, there's a huge political effect awaiting the corporation when it gets home. It depends on what "unobtainium" is used for and how that affects the population.

Last edited by Vexx; 2010-01-07 at 13:19.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 13:10   Link #251
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
I don’t get it. You’re saying that an RKVV would be relatively possible even if its not combat proven, because in the future it could happen.
The biggest hurdle behind an RKKV is actually getting it up to relativistic speeds, which at the moment we do not have anywhere near the energy to do. Once you get passed the energy requirement, the only thing left is to point the thing at the people you don't like.

Seeing as how humanity in the Avatar verse DOES have relativistic starships, RKKV's are easily done. It's just a matter of pointing at the planet yourself at the planet you don't like and releasing all the rocks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
But at the same time you’re being closed minded about the possibility of the humans to pour their funds in R&D developing a logistical solution for the transportation, which they have done previously by developing the ISV?
Provide me with a logical reason why I shouldn't be? This logistical solution requires transportation capability many thousands of times greater than what the humans in this universe currently possess. Why should I consider it a realistic possibility that the humans will be able to just start producing starships many times bigger than what they currently have and in many times the number?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
I don’t get it, Nagasaki and Hiroshima are only two nuclear warheads. Right now humanity has more than a thousand active and battle proven warheads. A thousand warhead are not enough to wipe out an entire planetary ecology?
Please refer to this.
Spoiler for How many nukes to destroy the world:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Again, its not that Earth has lost all its capabilities constructing older models like the Scorpions. You don’t have to construct them at Pandora, but simply construct them at Earth and then transport them to Pandora.
Except you don't realistically have the capability to do that.You're entire transport fleet doesn't even have half the cargo capacity of a small cargo ship. You're not gonna transport all this gear to Pandora on the starship when you can transport manufacturing equipment that will let you make many other things on planet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
If humans believe that material on Pandora is worth the effort, they will pay whatever cost to get it. It's just how we are.
We're also not stupid. We're not gonna try to fight a total war of annihilation with an army if we could just use relativistic weapons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Its not clear what the cost of shipping mass across interstellar space is so that hampers the discussion.
We do know some of the characteristics of the ISV venture star though. It's a gigantic mile long engine that can only carry a measly 350 tons of cargo. If you need a mile of engine to move 350 tons, scaling up is not going to be very practical.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 13:48   Link #252
TrueKnight
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
The biggest hurdle behind an RKKV is actually getting it up to relativistic speeds, which at the moment we do not have anywhere near the energy to do. Once you get passed the energy requirement, the only thing left is to point the thing at the people you don't like.

Seeing as how humanity in the Avatar verse DOES have relativistic starships, RKKV's are easily done. It's just a matter of pointing at the planet yourself at the planet you don't like and releasing all the rocks.
By your logic I guess it is possible. However due to the limited knowledge how the WMDs worked and used in the RDA, Iím sticking with the ones already combat proven which are nukes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Provide me with a logical reason why I shouldn't be? This logistical solution requires transportation capability many thousands of times greater than what the humans in this universe currently possess. Why should I consider it a realistic possibility that the humans will be able to just start producing starships many times bigger than what they currently have and in many times the number?
Who says it has to be thousand times greater? Who says it has to do with size? Actually I was thinking more like cost efficiency on the ISV so it could be mass-produced. The previous models before the ISVs were actually ľ larger than the ISV, but they manage to reduce it to the current ISVís size right now. If they can do that why couldnít they start R&D to further increase cost efficiency and eventually mass producing? The amount of capital required would be enormous, but considering the worth of the unobtanium, its worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Please refer to this. [snip]
Okay, point taken. Then the humans could just aim their nukes at Eywa and several Na'Vi settlement without harming the ubnotanium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Except you don't realistically have the capability to do that.You're entire transport fleet doesn't even have half the cargo capacity of a small cargo ship. You're not gonna transport all this gear to Pandora on the starship when you can transport manufacturing equipment that will let you make many other things on planet.
Manufacturing equipments must be transported along other war gears like Scorpions because the planetís surfaces already categorized as hostile. So I think Scorpions and any other weapons are a must. And just how much tonnage or kilos do Scorpions weights anyway? Several ISVs or other military vessels should be able to bring around 50 of them.

For creating a landing zone, I think you should either bomb the shit out of one of the planetís surface, thatíll create a desert where Eywa couldnít reach you, then you could transport manufacturing equipments down along with the Scorpions...

Actually it just crosses my mind as why the hell did RDA didnít built or construct a military space station capable storing up the war gears?
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic18330_3.gif
TrueKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 16:45   Link #253
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Who says it has to be thousand times greater? Who says it has to do with size? Actually I was thinking more like cost efficiency on the ISV so it could be mass-produced. The previous models before the ISVs were actually ľ larger than the ISV, but they manage to reduce it to the current ISVís size right now. If they can do that why couldnít they start R&D to further increase cost efficiency and eventually mass producing? The amount of capital required would be enormous, but considering the worth of the unobtanium, its worth it.
The advances in star ship design from what I have read, is mainly that once humans got a hold of significant quantities of unobtanium that they were able to produce more efficient anti matter drives. The dramatic increase in efficiency was because they acquired a better natural resource.

While a concentrated R&D effort certainly could produce more efficient engine designs, the problem comes from the current human star ships being hundreds to possibly thousands of orders of magnitude not efficient enough for the job being proposed here. You're talking about many generations of technological advancement here. You can't just make this kind of jump at the drop of a hat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Okay, point taken. Then the humans could just aim their nukes at Eywa and several Na'Vi settlement without harming the ubnotanium.
Eywa IS the planet. She's consists of every single networked tree on the planet. She also has control of an entire planet filled with the most dangerious organisms mankind has ever encountered.

If you don't want the landing mission to get torn to shreds, you bassically have to kill a large percentage of the biomass at least on the continent you land on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Manufacturing equipments must be transported along other war gears like Scorpions because the planetís surfaces already categorized as hostile. So I think Scorpions and any other weapons are a must. And just how much tonnage or kilos do Scorpions weights anyway? Several ISVs or other military vessels should be able to bring around 50 of them.
Except manufacturing equipment doesn't matter if you don't have the raw materials to feed into them so they can build what you want. Meanining the invasion force has to come in with resource gathering gear not to get Unobtanium, but more mundane resources just so they can manufacture ammo.

And it's not just a matter of transporting vehicles. You can cram the ISV's full of tons of empty vehicles. The problem comes when you consider that vehicles without fuel, ammo, spare parts and maintenance personell are militarily worthless. Even under ideal conditions vehicles needs ALLOT of all these things, but in this situation where you're effectively out of reach of any immediate resupply you're going to have to bring even more along with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Actually it just crosses my mind as why the hell did RDA didnít built or construct a military space station capable storing up the war gears?
Why would you build a space station to store weapons and ammo if you could store it down in your fortified base camp?
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 17:01   Link #254
karthak
Baruk Khazad
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Actually it just crosses my mind as why the hell did RDA didn’t built or construct a military space station capable storing up the war gears?
Because of this:

More powerful than most Earth governments The Resources Development Administration (RDA) has monopoly rights to all products shipped, derived or developed from Pandora and any other off-Earth location. These rights were granted to RDA in perpetuity by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space. http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/the_rda
karthak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 19:54   Link #255
TrueKnight
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
The advances in star ship design from what I have read, is mainly that once humans got a hold of significant quantities of unobtanium that they were able to produce more efficient anti matter drives. The dramatic increase in efficiency was because they acquired a better natural resource.

While a concentrated R&D effort certainly could produce more efficient engine designs, the problem comes from the current human star ships being hundreds to possibly thousands of orders of magnitude not efficient enough for the job being proposed here. You're talking about many generations of technological advancement here. You can't just make this kind of jump at the drop of a hat.
Thing is we don’t even know how many unobtanium the humans had right now. Did they acquired enough deposit to live another years or tens of years? Were enough stockpiles built by the humans in order to store and reserve the unobtanium in the long run? I think yes.

And what’s with the problem of human star ships being hundreds to possibly thousands of orders of magnitude not efficient? Of course you couldn’t just make it in a blink of an eye. That’s because its called R&D. How is it that considered a many generations of technological advancement when the humans has already got enough the blueprint portfolio from the previous ISV development so that they don’t need to start from scratch?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Eywa IS the planet. She's consists of every single networked tree on the planet. She also has control of an entire planet filled with the most dangerious organisms mankind has ever encountered.
No, Eywa is THE planet’s main brain or neuron network system or whatever you want to call it that seems concentrated only within a certain particular area shown in the movie. Which was why the Na’vis and the animals were so desperate in protecting it in the place. Because if Eywa is indeed the planet as a whole then the Na’Vi or Eywa itself wont bother protecting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
If you don't want the landing mission to get torn to shreds, you bassically have to kill a large percentage of the biomass at least on the continent you land on.
Yeah, basically you should start of your base operation construction in an area where you first mine the unobtanium, because that’s gotta be where it’s the most contaminated and Eywa won’t dare to lay a finger there..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Except manufacturing equipment doesn't matter if you don't have the raw materials to feed into them so they can build what you want. Meanining the invasion force has to come in with resource gathering gear not to get Unobtanium, but more mundane resources just so they can manufacture ammo.

And it's not just a matter of transporting vehicles. You can cram the ISV's full of tons of empty vehicles. The problem comes when you consider that vehicles without fuel, ammo, spare parts and maintenance personell are militarily worthless. Even under ideal conditions vehicles needs ALLOT of all these things, but in this situation where you're effectively out of reach of any immediate resupply you're going to have to bring even more along with you.
*shrugs* No problems here, it seems viable enough. Of course this is subject and provided that the logistical problem of interstellar transport is solved…

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Why would you build a space station to store weapons and ammo if you could store it down in your fortified base camp?
Well duh, minimizing the risk from getting hammered by angry locals and the remaining inhabitants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karthak
Because of this:

More powerful than most Earth governments The Resources Development Administration (RDA) has monopoly rights to all products shipped, derived or developed from Pandora and any other off-Earth location. These rights were granted to RDA in perpetuity by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/the_rda
Ah thanks, forgot about that.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic18330_3.gif
TrueKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 20:38   Link #256
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
And what’s with the problem of human star ships being hundreds to possibly thousands of orders of magnitude not efficient? Of course you couldn’t just make it in a blink of an eye. That’s because its called R&D.
Because in terms of efficiency it'd be comparable to the Egyptians going from galley ships to the titanic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
How is it that considered a many generations of technological advancement when the humans has already got enough the blueprint portfolio from the previous ISV development so that they don’t need to start from scratch?
The Egyptians have the blue prints for a bunch of wooden galley ships. Obviously since they have a basis from which to start from in developing boats, they should have no problem upgrading to the Titanic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
No, Eywa is THE planet’s main brain or neuron network system or whatever you want to call it that seems concentrated only within a certain particular area shown in the movie. Which was why the Na’vis and the animals were so desperate in protecting it in the place. Because if Eywa is indeed the planet as a whole then the Na’Vi or Eywa itself wont bother protecting it.
No. Places like the tree of souls were just locations where the Na'vi could hook up to talk to Eywa. They're bassically just public library computer labs where the Na'vi can access the net. Smashing the computer doesn't actually kill the internet, which is formed in every tree on the planet.

Even if you get rid of the places where Eywa can talk to the Na'vi, Ewya seems to still be capable of communicating and organizing with Pandoran organisms by other means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Yeah, basically you should start of your base operation construction in an area where you first mine the unobtanium, because that’s gotta be where it’s the most contaminated and Eywa won’t dare to lay a finger there..
I don't quite get what you're saying here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
*shrugs* No problems here, it seems viable enough. Of course this is subject and provided that the logistical problem of interstellar transport is solved…
Which is tantamount to working under the assumption that magic exists and can be used to solve all our practical problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Well duh, minimizing the risk from getting hammered by angry locals and the remaining inhabitants.
Wouldn't it have been more logical from the perspective of the guys on the ground, considering they're working with limited resources to keep all their weapons close by and on hand in order to better prevent scenarios in which they would need to rely on back up weapons hidden in space?
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 21:10   Link #257
TrueKnight
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Because in terms of efficiency it'd be comparable to the Egyptians going from galley ships to the titanic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
The Egyptians have the blue prints for a bunch of wooden galley ships. Obviously since they have a basis from which to start from in developing boats, they should have no problem upgrading to the Titanic.
Why are you always comparing technologies as if they have a ridiculous amount of gap? By your example then I could say that ancient Romans, Chinese or Indians could manufacture and develop cars based on their horse carts blue prints.

I was more thinking like developing technologies closer from existing ones. From military it could be like the F-18C Hornets developed into E/F category Super Hornets, or aircraft super carriers from Essex (22 thousand tons) to Midway class (45 thousand tons) until finally the existing Forrestal (70-ish thousand tons ). Or from civil point of view the constant development of airlines or cars with cost-efficiency.

With this humanity would probably able to think something up regarding the ISVs transports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
No. Places like the tree of souls were just locations where the Na'vi could hook up to talk to Eywa. They're bassically just public library computer labs where the Na'vi can access the net. Smashing the computer doesn't actually kill the internet, which is formed in every tree on the planet.

Even if you get rid of the places where Eywa can talk to the Na'vi, Ewya seems to still be capable of communicating and organizing with Pandoran organisms by other means.
Again, as Iíve stated before, the place theyíre protecting even by the standard your explanation IS the core of their mainframe, I mean you can even transfers souls and mindsets from there. This is why theyíre protecting it aside from symbolical point of view. If they could talk with other trees, they wonít bother protecting it in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
I don't quite get what you're saying here.
I was agreeing with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Which is tantamount to working under the assumption that magic exists and can be used to solve all our practical problems.
This magic already has the necessary tools and blueprints, the remaining is to further develop it in order to it to be more effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo
Wouldn't it have been more logical from the perspective of the guys on the ground, considering they're working with limited resources to keep all their weapons close by and on hand in order to better prevent scenarios in which they would need to rely on back up weapons hidden in space?
Er I guess so.. No qualms here. Basically you set up your army on ground pararelly with stationing the rest in space for back ups.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic18330_3.gif
TrueKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-07, 22:36   Link #258
Hellbore
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Age: 26
@ TrueKnight: I can't see how you can deny the energy output of relativistic weapons. The maths it sound at at the distances from Earth to Pandora it would be 'easy' to accelerate something to almost c (lightspeed). Nukes are proven in combat, but how much testing does an inert object that does damge purely through kinetic impact really need to be proven.
__________________


On Compromise: Let's agree to respect each others views, no matter how wrong yours may be.
Hellbore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-09, 00:37   Link #259
Takeru
Jag šter idioter
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Vereinigte Staaten
Age: 24
Send a message via AIM to Takeru Send a message via Skype™ to Takeru
For those interested, FOX has released the full screenplay to the public.
You can get it over at ComingSoon.net
__________________
Takeru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2010-01-11, 17:10   Link #260
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
Why are you always comparing technologies as if they have a ridiculous amount of gap?
Because going from an interstellar shipping fleet that is capable of transporting X metric tons to one that can transport 4500X metric tons IS a ridiculous gap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueKnight View Post
I was more thinking like developing technologies closer from existing ones. From military it could be like the F-18C Hornets developed into E/F category Super Hornets, or aircraft super carriers from Essex (22 thousand tons) to Midway class (45 thousand tons) until finally the existing Forrestal (70-ish thousand tons ). Or from civil point of view the constant development of airlines or cars with cost-efficiency.
The problem is that these kind of short term incremental improvements are still astronomically nowhere near adequate for dealing with the logistical hurdle of transporting a conventional army to Pandora. Advances in efficiency that would let you transport ten times as much stuff to Pandora as before still leave you nowhere near of the desired goal (namely of dropping a big ass army and conquering Pandora). For humanity to do this, they'd need star ship technology many thousands of times better than what they actually have.

At that point you're not talking about going from F18's to Super Hornets. You're talking about going from Leonardo DaVinci's original flying machine to super hornets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeru View Post
For those interested, FOX has released the full screenplay to the public.
You can get it over at ComingSoon.net
Seems to be the updates version of the original screenplay. Worth a read.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.