AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > General Anime

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-08-07, 14:01   Link #1
lubczyk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Would you sacrifice HD for better animation?

So anime has moved into the HD era. Anime cells are drawn on a larger canvas so that they appear sharper when broadcast in HD. Most shows broadcast in 16:9 and a lot of audio is in 5.1 as well. What's the problem with that you may ask? Well, everything.

Anime is still as cheaply produced as it has been in decades. There's still very in-between frames except for money-shots like high-impact action scenes. A lot of cheap tricks like showing legs, knees or still scenery during speeches to avoid animating high movement. There are still tons of reused frames used in anime shows and animation-saving procedures. Anime is still by-and-large a motion-comic instead of animation like Disney and the exception of Studio Ghibi.

Its the same with the audio. A lot of anime productions boast 5.1 or 6 distinct channels, but they're actually mostly center channel expanded to fit 6 channels. These surround tracks are true surround tracks like Hollywood productions. I mostly keep my home theater in stereo or Dolby ProLogic mode since a lot of "5.1" anime mixes sound terrible on my setup and are really a waste.

I personally, would accept anime being animated on a smaller canvas in exchange for better quality animation. Less still, more in-between frames and smoother transitions.

A lot of HD assets in anime are just upscaled SD assets (ie. Evangelion 1.11 You are (Not) Alone.)
lubczyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 14:05   Link #2
Kudryavka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
This is what Blu-ray has led us to. Blu-ray did this to us. Blu-ray is pure evil.
Kudryavka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 15:42   Link #3
Saber Cherry
Marionette
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 14
Having everything in 120 fps HD would be wonderful, but is not going to happen. So, I wouldn't mind high-def still scenes and lower-def action scenes. Anime really looks and feels much better at high frame rates. I couldn't care less about 5.1 sound, though. It is useful less than 1% of the time. In fact, I prefer stereo, since I often use headphones and downmixing the 5.1 stream can give terrible output.

Blue-Ray anime re-releases are certainly unimpressive, from what I've seen... It seems to generally be upsampled DVD stuff, and sometimes looks worse than the original.
__________________
Nipaa~
Saber Cherry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 18:28   Link #4
Js2756
Thread Killer
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Both are overrated, but HD moreso. Would prefer greater animation frames.

On a related note, I prefer Third Strike over Guilty Gear.
__________________
My anime review blog:
www.livejournal.com/~js2756
Js2756 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 18:47   Link #5
Theowne
耳をすませば
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 25
Send a message via Skype™ to Theowne
In a second. This is one of the reasons why the old Ghibli films are so much more visually compelling and organic.
__________________

My Site - Reviews collection, Sheet music, and etc.
Anime reviews/blog, piano arrangements, Studio Ghibli..
Theowne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 18:57   Link #6
RadiantBeam
Test Drive
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Age: 23
Send a message via AIM to RadiantBeam Send a message via Skype™ to RadiantBeam
Without a thought. Especially since if your computer can't handle downloading the HD versions.
__________________
RadiantBeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 18:58   Link #7
chikorita157
ひきこもりアイドル
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Jersey, United States
Age: 25
Send a message via Skype™ to chikorita157
Ghibli films were pretty good for their animation at the time, but You have to admit that Kyoto Animation made beautifully animated shows (with the exception of K-ON!, Lucky Star and Munto.)

Blu-Ray is pretty much unncessary unless you have a 1080p TV and a screen bigger than 40 inches. My Anime DVDs that upscale on my PS3 still provides good picture quality on a 32 inch LCD HDTV.

Also Blu-Ray have too much draconian DRM, alot worse than DVD.
__________________
chikorita157 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 19:07   Link #8
Theowne
耳をすませば
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 25
Send a message via Skype™ to Theowne
Quote:
Ghibli films were pretty good for their animation at the time
I prefer those animations that were "good for their time" over most of visuals in anime today, to be honest.

I haven't watched too many Kyoto Animation productions, I don't like their character designs all that much, but I think I recall that the animation was fairly good.
__________________

My Site - Reviews collection, Sheet music, and etc.
Anime reviews/blog, piano arrangements, Studio Ghibli..
Theowne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 19:14   Link #9
qwertyuiopz
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
sohulda been a poll
my answer is yes


?ITS A SONY?
qwertyuiopz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 19:21   Link #10
TheFluff
Excessively jovial fellow
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ISDB-T
Age: 28
this thread sure is full of opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
I personally, would accept anime being animated on a smaller canvas in exchange for better quality animation. Less still, more in-between frames and smoother transitions.
you cannot have this; hd is essentially free since the new equipment just works in higher resolutions and you can export at whatever resolution you want, but animator man hours are obviously not free

Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
A lot of HD assets in anime are just upscaled SD assets (ie. Evangelion 1.11 You are (Not) Alone.)
uh huh yes a cinematic movie is upscaled from sd, of course, obviously you are correct good sir

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
In a second. This is one of the reasons why the old Ghibli films are so much more visually compelling and organic.
hm yes let's compare extremely high-budget cinematic movies that are among the extremely few anime that actually has mainstream appeal both in japan and abroad to low-budget niche tv anime, this is surely a meaningful comparison

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Ghibli films were pretty good for their animation at the time, but You have to admit that Kyoto Animation made beautifully animated shows (with the exception of K-ON!, Lucky Star and Munto.)
I really hope you are trolling

Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
Blu-Ray is pretty much unncessary unless you have a 1080p TV and a screen bigger than 40 inches. My Anime DVDs that upscale on my PS3 still provides good picture quality on a 32 inch LCD HDTV.
ok now I know you're trolling, you almost had me there for a second though with the kyoani comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saber Cherry View Post
Having everything in 120 fps
anime: now with 116 duplicated still frames per second instead of 20
__________________
| ffmpegsource
17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

Last edited by TheFluff; 2009-08-07 at 19:38.
TheFluff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 19:28   Link #11
0utf0xZer0
Pretentious moe scholar
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 27
Does HD even have much of an impact on anime production? Mastering, sure, but production? Most companies are working in digital now anyway - who cares how big the canvas is when you can resize it on the fly? You even point that out yourself, with the whole upscale thing.

I'm all for better animation, but I see no reason why scrapping HD will get us there.

(And the one recent innovation in mastering I don't want to give up? Widescreen. It's the one thing that I think does make a very large difference.)

As for the more frames vs. better frames debate that seems to be cropping up the last couple posts... I think the correct response varies by production. EF doesn't need high frame rates, Gurren Lagann does. I'm not going to take a one size fits all approach.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne
I haven't watched too many Kyoto Animation productions, I don't like their character designs all that much, but I think I recall that the animation was fairly good.
Many KyoAni productions use character designs very close to the source material on which they are based... Air in particular comes to mind here.
0utf0xZer0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 19:55   Link #12
KholdStare
ISML Technical Staff
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to KholdStare Send a message via MSN to KholdStare
I'd like to mention that animation isn't everything. Sure, some anime wowed me because of their animation, but there are much more anime that I like because of story than animation. I have more of an issue with fansub groups pulling out 350-400 MB files because they are "forced" to release in upscaled 720p, but that's another story.
KholdStare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 19:58   Link #13
CeDeR
forever hung over
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
No! I want it all!!!
__________________
CeDeR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 20:00   Link #14
chikorita157
ひきこもりアイドル
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Jersey, United States
Age: 25
Send a message via Skype™ to chikorita157
Quote:
ok now I know you're trolling, you almost had me there for a second though with the kyoani comment
you might be thinking about Enless Eight... I have to agree that Kyoani didn't do a very good job with animating and handling of that arc.

Someone did mention that the Air bluray picture quality was worse than the DVD version since it was upscaled.
__________________
chikorita157 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 20:01   Link #15
lubczyk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I'd like to mention that animation isn't everything. Sure, some anime wowed me because of their animation, but there are much more anime that I like because of story than animation. I have more of an issue with fansub groups pulling out 350-400 MB files because they are "forced" to release in upscaled 720p, but that's another story.
It's supposed to animation not a book. You can have good animation and a good story. When I'm watching animation, I expect it to be good. If you're only riding on a story, publish a book or an audio drama.

It still bugs me that even big anime productions like Garden of Sinners use so many stills. Much of the latest film was lifeless.

Stills in animation suck, even in anime with "good stories." The writing quality in anime needs to go up as well.
lubczyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 20:09   Link #16
KholdStare
ISML Technical Staff
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 25
Send a message via AIM to KholdStare Send a message via MSN to KholdStare
Stills = nitpicking

The only noticeable "stills" are the ones in hentai.

Kara no Kyoukai has excellent animation. It can fool me all it wants with stills, but I don't care, because I don't watch anime to nitpick. If animation is not obviously bad, then it's not bad. The majority of the anime watching community will praise the animation in Kara no Kyoukai. Therefore, it is unreasonable to up the "animation" just to please people like...you.

PS: I did not appreciate the neg rep because I was voicing my opinion/tastes in anime.
KholdStare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 20:22   Link #17
TheFluff
Excessively jovial fellow
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ISDB-T
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikorita157 View Post
you might be thinking about Enless Eight... I have to agree that Kyoani didn't do a very good job with animating and handling of that arc.
I might be thinking of pretty much everything kyoani has ever done, with like two exceptions

Quote:
Originally Posted by lubczyk View Post
It still bugs me that even big anime productions like Garden of Sinners use so many stills. Much of the latest film was lifeless.
yeah ok so not only is evangelion an upscale, knk is full of stills and "lifeless"? pro troll there, bro
__________________
| ffmpegsource
17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
TheFluff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 20:35   Link #18
lubczyk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
I might be thinking of pretty much everything kyoani has ever done, with like two exceptions


yeah ok so not only is evangelion an upscale, knk is full of stills and "lifeless"? pro troll there, bro
Not the whole thing. You can tell that some CG assets and 2D assets are drawn at a lower resolution than others. There's quite a contrast.

The whole thing wasn't drawn on the same size canvas.
lubczyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 20:38   Link #19
Theowne
耳をすませば
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Age: 25
Send a message via Skype™ to Theowne
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFluff View Post
hm yes let's compare extremely high-budget cinematic movies that are among the extremely few anime that actually has mainstream appeal both in japan and abroad to low-budget niche tv anime, this is surely a meaningful comparison
This thread is called "would you sacrifice HD for better animation". I said yes, using Ghibli films as an example of great animation. I would surely give it up for regular anime to look more like them. Can you tell me where the problem lies here?
__________________

My Site - Reviews collection, Sheet music, and etc.
Anime reviews/blog, piano arrangements, Studio Ghibli..
Theowne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-07, 20:42   Link #20
TheFluff
Excessively jovial fellow
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ISDB-T
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theowne View Post
This thread is called "would you sacrifice HD for better animation". Using Ghibli films as an example of great animation, yes, I would sacrifice HD for anime to look more like Ghibli films. Can you tell me where the problem lies here?
the problem is that the question is completely meaningless to begin with
__________________
| ffmpegsource
17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
TheFluff is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.