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Old 2009-08-21, 03:45   Link #41
Irenicus
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^Actually, very strong arguments can be made that the Red Army was badly harmed by the paranoia of its supreme master prior to World War 2. The Great Purge did...nearly irreparable damage to the command structure of what was once one of the most innovative armies in the world, which only regained its edge through years of brutal combat. Remember, Deep Operations was invented by Soviet military theorists prior to World War 2, theorists who helped create and maintain the military infrastructure that was able to invent weaponry like the T-34; theorists who were largely purged by His Great Moustache.

It did not help that the purges resulted in the humiliation of the Winter War, which some say convinced Hitler (and the Allies) of the Red Army's "third rate" status and consequently Germany's chances at conquering the Soviet Union.

Did Stalin bring the war to his own people? We will never know.

Moreover, laymen often overestimate the value of those "stand and fight" orders. Quite frankly, they suck. Stand and fight didn't win the war, not on a theater scale. Strategic mobility, industry, and manpower did. Oh, and good generalship -- of which Stalin's only credit was that he allowed them to live and do what they had to do.

This here ignores the obvious fact that he is a mass murderer who caused the death of countless millions, the misery of many more, etc. Even in ideological terms he was probably one of socialism's greatest foes, ironically enough.
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Old 2009-08-21, 06:40   Link #42
SaintessHeart
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Hitler, Stalin or Truman.... IMO all these leaders should not be judged from the perspective of good or evil, but rather from the perspective of how they have changed the world, for better or for worse.

There may be thousand of theories on how Hitler may have influenced PETA or Stalin have influenced political purging, but I don't think any inaction would have changed the world to what it is today. After all, there would be no history if nobody does anything right?
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Old 2009-08-21, 07:14   Link #43
risingstar3110
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To say the truth, i do not believe that those Soviet generals who care for individuals while mass controlled millions men, spent 3 hours a day to sleep and devote the other 21 for war planning.......... would just approve some random orders(stand and fight) that will not only damage troops morale but also reduce both available man power and war materials......
Of course we can assume Stalin is just a big idiot, and his generals are all ass-kissers.... but the little bit knowledge i have in the matter make me doubt it


I also can understand whenever people put up the assumption how Soviet military would like if Stalin didn't come to power(with all the purge and military reform...), and yeah i admit it's a fair argument. My only counter attack for such case would be: "what if the situation turn worse when so?"
Since it didn't happen, we only can assume. But what if Soviet cut through Finland (in Winter War) and Poland like "hot knife cut through butter" (i love this metaphor ). Would it means Hitler won't rush up his army for Barbarossa campaign where German army lost as much in two weeks as in the whole France Campaign and ended up trapped in the winter of Soviet(this is from a Blitz game so we can doubt, of course) ? As long as NAP still exist between Nazi and Soviet and Hitler's not encouraged to break it, Rommel would have excessive supply to be able to take over Allied forces on North Africa=> it would be long until Allied can land on Italy(if not never). Even with failed raid and landing on England, the Luftwaffe can still focus in Western Front and cause much distress to the people of London. Furthermore, countries that failed to align with Axis due to Allied intervention (Iraq and few other in Middle East) may also get enough support this time to really turn to facism.
The world situation would either a "3 sides Cold War", or break out like what happens in China, with Axis force in war with the Allied, and the Soviet sneak behind to fight both


Btw, a disputed quote, but it shows that famous general also like to assume alternative past once in a while
Quote:
America should have minded her own business and stayed out of the World War. If you hadn't entered the war the Allies would have made peace with Germany in the Spring of 1917. Had we made peace then there would have been no collapse in Russia followed by Communism, no breakdown in Italy followed by Fascism, and Germany would not have signed the Versailles Treaty, which has enthroned Nazism in Germany. If America had stayed out of the war, all these 'isms' wouldn't today be sweeping the continent of Europe and breaking down parliamentary government — and if England had made peace early in 1917, it would have saved over one million British, French, American, and other lives.
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Old 2009-08-22, 21:56   Link #44
Tenken's Smile
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Communism has failed completely because of its impracticality.
There comes the rise of "red capitalism".
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Old 2009-08-24, 06:25   Link #45
Dreamtale
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Worth to mention that Stalin raise soviet economy from poor agriculture to strong industry in no time at all. And that's why we can win WW2. If not, if we were at the same point as in 1917, noone knows what will happen to the world, right? Many bad decisions, great loss of people... Well, yeah, but strong intensively developing industries conversing to war needs it's all because of him...
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Old 2009-08-24, 06:59   Link #46
Cipher
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I'm expecting a WW3. It's definitely like they say:"History repeats itself". Let's just embrace war and live with it. (or die)
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:08   Link #47
Dreamtale
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I'm expecting a WW3.
Nope, we have 2012, don't forget!
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:13   Link #48
Cipher
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Nope, we have 2012, don't forget!
Then what about my 3rd world war? My "history repeats itself"?
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:20   Link #49
Dreamtale
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Then what about my 3rd world war? My "history repeats itself"?
Mmm... Maybe this circle of history wiil end by meteor or something in 2012 and next it'll be the next big circle with WW3/4/10/100 etc.?

If seriously, i don't think next WW will happen, because noone will win because of it. Most of countries nowadaus are do globalized that can't live without each other (e.g. middle east oil for us)... Simply, who will start war? Some mysterious Al-kaida or North Korea?
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:25   Link #50
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Dreamtale View Post
Mmm... Maybe this circle of history wiil end by meteor or something in 2012 and next it'll be the next big circle with WW3/4/10/100 etc.?

If seriously, i don't think next WW will happen, because noone will win because of it. Most of countries nowadaus are do globalized that can't live without each other (e.g. middle east oil for us)... Simply, who will start war? Some mysterious Al-kaida or North Korea?
.....ME......Sorry, that nor the earlier one were serious statements. the idea that "history repeats itself" has some truths but its technically false IMO.
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:29   Link #51
risingstar3110
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OK calm down everyone...... lets just have 2012 world disaster first, then WW3 will fight over moon resource (j/k)


@Dreamtale: remind me of the quote "He had found Russia working with wooden ploughs and leaving it equipped with atomic piles." Then on the same topic we have Churchill's praises of:
Spoiler for ...for size mostly....:


I knows some people will find it's weird seeing someone on Earth can still speak high of Stalin. It was just that i tend to analysis people(especially those who passed away) based on their strong and weak points seperately....
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:35   Link #52
Dreamtale
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Hm... I would not try to argue... Because i think that "circles", "history" etc are too far complicated things for one short human life to understand... Maybe, if we look back to the 2000+ years of human history we can tell that yep, history repeats itself, but what will be in future? And besides, we do not know about what happened 50,000 years ago or early... Shumers, Atlantis or other highly developed civilisations that disapeared without a trace - is it legends or...

Jeez, my post looks like "The truth is out there" from x-files...

risingstar3110 Yeah, totaly agree!
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:43   Link #53
Cipher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamtale View Post
Hm... I would not try to argue... Because i think that "circles", "history" etc are too far complicated things for one short human life to understand... Maybe, if we look back to the 2000+ years of human history we can tell that yep, history repeats itself, but what will be in future? And besides, we do not know about what happened 50,000 years ago or early... Shumers, Atlantis or other highly developed civilisations that disapeared without a trace - is it legends or...

Jeez, my post looks like "The truth is out there" from x-files...

risingstar3110 Yeah, totaly agree!
too bad for you but I already know the secrets of this world and the purpose of humanity as an entirety. A simple death-like experience should tell you.
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:47   Link #54
Dreamtale
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too bad for you but I already know the secrets of this world and the purpose of humanity as an entirety. A simple death-like experience should tell you.
Lucky you!
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:50   Link #55
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Dreamtale View Post
Lucky you!
Do you think anyone would commit suicide just to answer these questions? "Ohh I can't wait to die, yipee!" something like that.
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Old 2009-08-24, 07:56   Link #56
Dreamtale
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Do you think anyone would commit suicide just to answer these questions? "Ohh I can't wait to die, yipee!" something like that.
Ehh... Suicide? Tried to go to hospital already? If not, i suggest
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Old 2009-08-24, 08:10   Link #57
Cipher
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Ehh... Suicide? Tried to go to hospital already? If not, i suggest
This is what happens when I try to start "weird" discussions.
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Old 2009-08-24, 08:15   Link #58
risingstar3110
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I agree that the discussion turn to quite weird now... (and kind of...... very away from topic too)

I understand what you guys saying, but i don't understand why you say so in this case...
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Old 2009-08-24, 08:17   Link #59
Dreamtale
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And i don't understand nothing already
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Old 2009-08-24, 09:16   Link #60
yezhanquan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamtale View Post
Worth to mention that Stalin raise soviet economy from poor agriculture to strong industry in no time at all. And that's why we can win WW2. If not, if we were at the same point as in 1917, noone knows what will happen to the world, right? Many bad decisions, great loss of people... Well, yeah, but strong intensively developing industries conversing to war needs it's all because of him...
Well, this goes into speculation because Lenin died early, and Stalin pushed all possible opponents out in due time. However, do remember that collectivization is a disaster, especially in the Ukraine. Ol' Mr. D. decided that starving peasant opponents is one way to go. Also, Joe forgot to tell you guys that yeah, the Red Army fought with tons of US-made equipment. In his own words, "the war was fought with Soviet lives, but American money."

Besides, 1917 wasn't the lowest point yet. Try 1921, after some years of the Civil War.
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