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Old 2012-12-28, 00:33   Link #2321
Justin_Brett
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No really, but that could be fun. Sieg just had a super plot-armor that even break the 4th wall and enter the story making almost impossible for Einhart to cause any amount of significant damage.
The plot armor of being established as quite strong, yes.
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Old 2012-12-28, 01:43   Link #2322
Lhklan
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
No really, but that could be fun. Sieg just had a super plot-armor that even break the 4th wall and enter the story making almost impossible for Einhart to cause any amount of significant damage.
And if Einhart wins, then she have some goddamn Deux Ex Machina going for her. Because newcomer beating up champion just does not works.
Even Son Goku, who's ridiculously powerful later in the series, still lost his first Tournament.
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In short, was a lot of BS since even when Ein get mad and attack Sieg each hit made two digits damage to Sieg and three digit damage to Einhart herself. That is why I say it really doesn’t matter. Einhart was this close to lose for self-knockout
Sieg was the last champion. Meaning that she at the very least fought against either Micaiah, Harry or Victoria. So your claim of it being BS fall.
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Old 2012-12-28, 02:34   Link #2323
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I know but even so plays against the story that both Vivio and Einhart lose their fights when Miura win against someone who did fight the champion. That is what I call BS, at least from story telling the fight didn’t have to be that damn one side it and with this defeated the tournament arc is over. All the main characters are out.

And it doesn’t matter how strong Miura is suppose to be or if Sieg was the last champion and a descendant from a Belkan guy: they aren’t the main characters. Is cliché that a character wins even when its opponent is “superior”? Yes, but that is the idea. Seeing the character fight what seems hopeless and overcome the forces that fight against him or her on this case.
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Old 2012-12-28, 02:42   Link #2324
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I know but even so plays against the story that both Vivio and Einhart lose their fights when Miura win against someone who did fight the champion. That is what I call BS, at least from story telling the fight didn’t have to be that damn one side it and with this defeated the tournament arc is over. All the main characters are out.
So? Just because they're all out doesn't mean that it's over. They can still watch the thing as spectactor. And if they want to have better results next time, that's a good idea to do.

Also, it just doesn't depend on strength. It also depends on style. Micaiah's a Glass Canon/Fragile Speedster. She can dish out, but she can't tank a damn. A few hit in and she's a goner.

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And it doesn’t matter how strong Miura is suppose to be or if Sieg was the last champion and a descendant from a Belkan guy: they aren’t the main characters. Is cliché that a character wins even when its opponent is “superior”? Yes, but that is the idea. Seeing the character fight what seems hopeless and overcome the forces that fight against him or her on this case.
... So what you're saying that main characters should win all the time? Go watch SAO then.

Also, there's a thin line between "fighting what seems hopeless and overcome the forces that fight against him or her" and "pulling something right out of their asses that no one have ever seen before to win". If Einhart win, it feels less like the former and more like the latter.
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Old 2012-12-28, 10:10   Link #2325
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It could be that, I agree.

Hey, I do know characters don’t have to win all the time and I will admit that Einhart winning could be sense as “something out of her ass” but I think here she need to win as Vivio need to win her own fight. Because their defeat feels like… well, nothing was accomplish with all of this. Einhart and Vivio should have the flashbacks while fighting against each other and Sieg should not be part of their memories at all, in my opinion.

The reason is just those two, Vivio and Einhart, are the main characters and they being just toss out of the tournament means that there is no longer a reason for them or us to be there. Also what I didn’t buy about Sieg is how one side the battle was. Sieg was fast, strong and a tank on defense. And to be fair isn’t a matter of styles when we see characters change styles several times and they all tend to use the same close range attacks with high speed. At least to me doesn’t fit to be talking of styles when Corona can imitate a hand to hand fighter, Sieg is all in one, Miura is a close range and a bombardier, etc. I just don’t think it applies here.
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Old 2012-12-28, 10:24   Link #2326
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It could be that, I agree.

Hey, I do know characters don’t have to win all the time and I will admit that Einhart winning could be sense as “something out of her ass” but I think here she need to win as Vivio need to win her own fight. Because their defeat feels like… well, nothing was accomplish with all of this. Einhart and Vivio should have the flashbacks while fighting against each other and Sieg should not be part of their memories at all, in my opinion.
If she wins against Sieg, then she'd be closer to Sue territory than before. As for the flashbacks, the way I see it, it's kind of a character development/arc for Einhart. My opinion is that Claus's memories was interfering with Einhart again. Not only that, but part of his feelings too. Which could lead to an identity crisis of sort. Who is she? Einhart? A female Claus? I think it will be interesting if they took that route.

Of course, this being ViVid, I sincerely doubt it.

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The reason is just those two, Vivio and Einhart, are the main characters and they being just toss out of the tournament means that there is no longer a reason for them or us to be there. Also what I didn’t buy about Sieg is how one side the battle was. Sieg was fast, strong and a tank on defense. And to be fair isn’t a matter of styles when we see characters change styles several times and they all tend to use the same close range attacks with high speed. At least to me doesn’t fit to be talking of styles when Corona can imitate a hand to hand fighter, Sieg is all in one, Miura is a close range and a bombardier, etc. I just don’t think it applies here.
Yeah, but from what I seen so far, Sieg doesn't really have any special abilities. Aside from her own developped spell, she's kind of an all rounder ace figure. Excellent all around, no specialisation, no fancy tricks.
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Old 2012-12-28, 11:25   Link #2327
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That is why I didn’t like this take on the manga. Vivio could be develop with Einhart and the inclusion of Jeremiah is really unnecessary and kind of out of the blue. I was thinking that they will fight here and do what Sieg and Einhart did, but on a more personal level. Einhart realizing she isn’t Claus and Vivio recovering some of Olive’s memories.

Again, my problem with Sieg is that she is just too strong on every single level. She does need a trick or a reason to be this strong beyond “She is the champion” at least to me. Maybe something about using her magic to make her body invincible or something because they way it is she is just too damn strong and everything we throw at her will just not do any damage. In a franchise where most characters does have signature attacks or even styles to them, ViVid has characters with nothing special or generic powers. To me it feel a little cheap how they take on it and I really dislike it.

I mean, we build Einhart and Vivio with this really special connection between their past self and their present forms, that alone could make for a very decent story arc and then just happen to be a third party nobody knew until now, making everything a little insignificant when almost 1 of 3 characters has a connection with a belkan emperor or something.
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Old 2012-12-28, 11:39   Link #2328
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That is why I didn’t like this take on the manga. Vivio could be develop with Einhart and the inclusion of Jeremiah is really unnecessary and kind of out of the blue. I was thinking that they will fight here and do what Sieg and Einhart did, but on a more personal level. Einhart realizing she isn’t Claus and Vivio recovering some of Olive’s memories.
See, if she realize it WITHOUT having experience the problem, then it's an asspull. Here, this is the first time she experiences something like this. She's gonna have to go through a process to gain her own identity.

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Again, my problem with Sieg is that she is just too strong on every single level. She does need a trick or a reason to be this strong beyond “She is the champion” at least to me. Maybe something about using her magic to make her body invincible or something because they way it is she is just too damn strong and everything we throw at her will just not do any damage. In a franchise where most characters does have signature attacks or even styles to them, ViVid has characters with nothing special or generic powers. To me it feel a little cheap how they take on it and I really dislike it.
See, it's because most characters till now have signature attacks or styles make the generic ones specials. They're the background, the normal mage of the verse. It also serves to paint those with specials even more specials, and those without em but still rise above even more spetacular.

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I mean, we build Einhart and Vivio with this really special connection between their past self and their present forms, that alone could make for a very decent story arc and then just happen to be a third party nobody knew until now, making everything a little insignificant when almost 1 of 3 characters has a connection with a belkan emperor or something.
Wheel of Fate. But I have to agree though. It's it kinda ridiculous.

My biggest beef with that problem however, is if they have so many characters with connections to the past, why the fuck didn't they go to the giant library with almost every records about the past? And the guy who spend much of his life on ruins and in that library?
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Old 2012-12-28, 11:57   Link #2329
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I hope Einhart and Vivio learn from this and that the fact Vivio recover some memories does play a role on what is going to happen but I don’t think that will be the case here.

Yes, I know but I can’t take Sieg being that powerful, it just doesn’t feel right because of how we construct other characters and she is just the champion. Also doesn’t help she is like an older version of Einhart and looks like Black Rock Shooter. I mean I don’t hate her that much but I am not a fan and I still consider she should not be there.

And yes, I share the same feeling about Jeremiah. For that matter we have 4 ancient Belka knights, an entire organization that worships the Saint Kaiser and even Lutecia who knows a lot of ancient Belka things and yet they didn’t knew about Jeremiah. Is almost as the author didn’t really think about it until later.
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Old 2012-12-28, 12:17   Link #2330
Lhklan
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I hope Einhart and Vivio learn from this and that the fact Vivio recover some memories does play a role on what is going to happen but I don’t think that will be the case here.
Seeing as Vivio plays the role of a younger Nanoha, she'll probably bottles it up inside.

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Yes, I know but I can’t take Sieg being that powerful, it just doesn’t feel right because of how we construct other characters and she is just the champion. Also doesn’t help she is like an older version of Einhart and looks like Black Rock Shooter. I mean I don’t hate her that much but I am not a fan and I still consider she should not be there.
Let's just agree to disagree then, to avoid clogging the thread.

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And yes, I share the same feeling about Jeremiah. For that matter we have 4 ancient Belka knights, an entire organization that worships the Saint Kaiser and even Lutecia who knows a lot of ancient Belka things and yet they didn’t knew about Jeremiah. Is almost as the author didn’t really think about it until later.
The 4 Knights can be excused as not remembering since it has been a long time, Lutecia having a limited knowledge and access, but not asking the Saint Church and the Infinity Library? What. The. Hell?
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Old 2012-12-28, 17:46   Link #2331
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They didn't know about the Stratos family, either. You're expecting far too much, if you expect everyone to know everything. They don't know things until they research things. There were things they didn't know about the book of darkness, either, despite the information they had in the library. Not until Yuuno specifically looked for it.

Keep in mind, you're asking our heroes to basically spy and dig up information on everybody. Sometimes, people keep a low profile, and there is no reason to investigate them. Maybe, just maybe, the church tries to be good by not spying/investigating people, keeping track of their ancestry. Yuuno is one guy, and he's kept busy researching things for various Bureau cases.

We, as the audience, are privy to things the characters aren't. And sometimes we have to step back and place ourselves in the characters shoes, and knowing what we do about them being good guys, we have to realize they don't tend to do shady things.
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Old 2012-12-28, 19:52   Link #2332
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By the fact that Vivio is a direct descendant from the Saint Kaiser… is a secret r not? Because that always confuse me. I could say it is but then is mention just so casualty like is nothing. For that matter Vivio should be a little famous just for being the daughter of the Ace of Aces, then again the only character who I see having any kind of public reputation is Sieg.

And to be fair Hayate did just that, Kaijo, she take the liberty of investigate Claus past and how it relates to Sieg. The problem here is once more how they deal with the “ancient king” stuff. Instead of being important to some kind of story is just a funny fact about some characters that just happen to be there.
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Old 2012-12-28, 21:22   Link #2333
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Not sure what you're asking, then. Vivio is kinda famous, as is Nanoha. I believe some of the extra materials hint at that. That's why Victoria knew who Vivio was. I'm sure Mid has some more families descended from ancient bloodlines, and probably some of those on other planets as well. It's just that, given the war 300 years ago, information would have been lost.

But I'll also remind that this is Vivid, which has basically lacked a plot ever since Einhart ended as an antagonist. It's now about girls fighting in a tournament, and has completely dropped any semblance of actual story. So, if you're expecting complex story elements now, well, you're out of luck.
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Old 2012-12-28, 21:28   Link #2334
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Maybe you are right but I can hope and wait for more. And about the famous is just that, to me, is never that clear to be honest. Is one of those things that could be or couldn't
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Old 2012-12-28, 21:40   Link #2335
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Yeah, from what I understand the level of public exposure Vivio gets is vague for the viewers. That said, she does seem to be officially recognized as the current Sankt Kaiser after Olivie.
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Old 2012-12-28, 22:21   Link #2336
Sansker
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And I still consider that Einhart loosing was the last we should see of this tournament.

Then again I did see more of that chapter and it looks like Sieg had some kind of super awesome move after all.
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Old 2012-12-29, 04:37   Link #2337
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As much as i was waiting for Sieglinde to finally enter the scene i foudn her fight with Einhart rather boring ...or i should say unecessary long? I don't know why but it happened the same with Vivio and Rio's respective fight ...maybe it's because things are too easy and carefree for that group in particular, at least with Mura i can feel her drive to win and the other fights introduced interesting fightstyles and magic (Victooooriaaaa *o*) ...guess it was also the fact Sieg didn't even seemed to make a great effort to win this, kind of expected but still, if that was the result it wasn't necessary to extend the fight for such a long time, two chapter would be more than enough.

What i do think will be interesting is to see Einahrt's reaction to this. Unlike Vivio or her friends ...Einhart had an important goal to porve herself (in fact, her whole warrior philosophy focuses on being "the strongest" ...and while Nove's teaching softened that somewhat, i'm sure being faced with such crushing defeat MUST have an effect on her character (if that doesn't happen i'll ackonwledge Tsuzuki's work is made by a monkey on a typewriter ...he already wasted a gold opportunity to develop Signum in interesting ways after her defeat in FORCE ...he can't do that twice ...he just CAN'T TOT!).

About Sieglinde i'm eager to see her facing an actual challenging opponent, maybe Vitoria? that will be an awesome fight xD!

Sadly for Sansker i doubt this tournament is over, we still have to see the Witch Girl's fight against Lutecia, we have lots f subplots going on so i can predict this will go on for a little longer xD
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Old 2012-12-29, 11:23   Link #2338
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At least we can agree on the same area in Sieg’s fight: it was too easy. Einhart never had any real change until she start to regenerate life points and even there was just the change to get her ass kick over and over because for unknown reasons Sieg didn’t just finish her. I mean if they take this fight so seriously and all of that, why will Sieg hold back? Even after she started to use the gauntlets thing. We can all say what we think about the characters losing to the champions but I will always consider all of those fights and defeats a bad move.

And I hope you are wrong man. I mean Lutecia went from a rather flat character that I really didn’t care to an annoying girl I want to strangle with my own hands. The Witch Girl is just looks like Lutecia as she was in StrikerS and that is something I am not looking forward to. Besides we haven’t see her all this time, as far as I know or care she could already lose. Both Lutecia and the witch girl.

So, really, what is next here? Vivio finally get some memories form Olive, Einhart break Teo or something like that and she get her ass handle to her by Black Rock Shooter so… what? Please don’t tell me they are going to help Miura or Lutecia because that will be just the worse case scenario. I mean feels like the writer use the main character to raise the side characters.

And about styles: no, not even one of the “new” magic fighting styles is really that awesome. Is all the same with a little different names and they repeat itself. Victoria has Fate’s style, Harry has Signum’s, Black Rock Shooter… I mean Sieg has the same punch technique as the rest and even uses moves that for some reason reminds me of the WWE. Our main characters didn’t have a style I could call a style, Corona and Rio did have something more personal but the first ended using the same martial arts as the other and the second decide to imitate Signum as well so really I don’t think is that different. That is how I see it.
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Old 2012-12-29, 12:12   Link #2339
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We can all say what we think about the characters losing to the champions but I will always consider all of those fights and defeats a bad move.
You got a point in the first part, so I'll ignore that. This one though...
So you're saying that if someone new enter the tournament, if it's a main character, he or she should automaticaly win the cup?

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And I hope you are wrong man. I mean Lutecia went from a rather flat character that I really didn’t care to an annoying girl I want to strangle with my own hands. The Witch Girl is just looks like Lutecia as she was in StrikerS and that is something I am not looking forward to. Besides we haven’t see her all this time, as far as I know or care she could already lose. Both Lutecia and the witch girl.
... It's there ANYONE in this that you don't like?

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And about styles: no, not even one of the “new” magic fighting styles is really that awesome. Is all the same with a little different names and they repeat itself. Victoria has Fate’s style, Harry has Signum’s, Black Rock Shooter… I mean Sieg has the same punch technique as the rest and even uses moves that for some reason reminds me of the WWE. Our main characters didn’t have a style I could call a style, Corona and Rio did have something more personal but the first ended using the same martial arts as the other and the second decide to imitate Signum as well so really I don’t think is that different. That is how I see it.
Disagree here.

Harry Tribeca seems to use both mid range and close range attack, and since she mainly use fist, it is very different from Signum's style.

Victoria on the other hand, chose to sacrifice speed entirely for supreme firepower and defense, while Fate's style is quite agile. Hell, Fate upgraded form lose the defense for speed, directly opposite of Victoria.
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Old 2012-12-29, 12:21   Link #2340
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Well, look at Miura. If she wins then it will be my point no? But that is not what I mean. Is just that as a result of this defeated and consider how the story was made, nothing really comes out of it. I am not against the main characters loosing. I am against the meaningless fights and the lack of any antagonism here. Makes it hard for me to care and so if they lose I just feel like nothing really was accomplish. What I am trying to say is that this could be handle a lot better but on this setting their defeats just feel cheap to me.

About your question I don’t get it. If you someone I like I do like Vivio and Einhart. I even like Corona for all her troubles. I don’t like the new characters but I don’t hate them all, only some of them. The rest are just not even worth mention to me.

You are right about Victoria is just that I can’t really buy that “emperor lighting” or whatever she is call thing when I already saw Fate unleashing a thunder storm when she was 9. Harry, I don’t think she is that different from Signum when the fact is that she just don’t use a sword but her mid range attack is a flaming chain, for that matter Rio’s sword was also in flames, so… where did I ever saw such thing together? Maybe I am just hard on them for other reasons, but to me they never really shine.
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