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Old 2011-06-06, 16:08   Link #781
Keroko
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We didn't see any hitpoint sharing/investing in the training chapters, did we? And since they were using the tournament rules there, it's safe to assume it won't be the case here either.
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Old 2011-06-06, 16:37   Link #782
Akiyoshi
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On that area there's also the "safety line" when a fighter reach below 10% of their Hit Points and is unable to continue fighting, but i wonder if said rule only applies to team battles because it sounds pretty pointless for a one-on-one match.
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Old 2011-06-06, 17:47   Link #783
Justin_Brett
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Is it, though? Of course, ViVid is in a tournament fighting arc, so those kind of metastory-prescribed results are a little more blatantly obvious, but if everyone is talking about the metastory first off and only thinking of the "in-story" explanations later, doesn't that suggest that to this audience that the story's kind of failing to create the suspension of disbelief necessary for people to think that the resolution of conflicts does have to do with the "in-story" explanations? I mean, sure, metastory does pretty much describe why everything happens in fiction, but it's the job of the writer to involve us in the story enough not to be constantly thinking about that.
Well, if Vivid doesn't accomplish that, then Force definitely doesn't, but I think it does that well enough - it's more like an issue for the people I was talking about. Not to mention the whole 'analyze EVERYTHING' atmosphere these kinds of threads have going for them.
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Old 2011-06-06, 20:10   Link #784
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Well, if Vivid doesn't accomplish that, then Force definitely doesn't,
If you expect me to contradict you on that point, you're definitely talking to the wrong guy. I find ViVid's open embracing of its shonen tropes to be far more effective than Force's apparent aspirations--and failures--to be more than generic.

And to be fair, I genuinely don't know if they're going to find a way to try and justify Vivio vs. Einhart in the finals, or if it's just going to be Ein there and Vivio'll be cheering her on (I'll be very surprised if they manage to have Vivio go all the way alone, though that would be genuinely fun).
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Old 2011-06-06, 20:20   Link #785
dahak
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So to beat Miura, you need to finish her off fast before she reaches peak charge?
Or bleed the spent magic into a spell of your own. I'm wondering if an accumulatory defence is possible.
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Old 2011-06-06, 20:33   Link #786
Tiresias
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Or instead of bulldozing her with massive, high-powered attacks you can switch to less-powerful but precise attacks aimed at her vitals or blindspots (y'know, like a real martial artist (yes, yes, using real life comparison on this manga is a bit a silly, but I need an example) which do not have Wave Motion Punches) from which there's not much ambient energy for Miura to siphon.
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Old 2011-06-06, 20:34   Link #787
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Or instead of bulldozing her with massive, high-powered attacks you can switch to less-powerful but precise attacks (y'know, like a real martial artist (yes, yes, using real life comparison on this manga is a bit a silly, but I need an example) which do not have Wave Motion Punches) from which there's not much ambient energy for Miura to siphon.
I wonder how she'd stack up against Ein, who apparently does not actually use magic in her Kaiser Arts?
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Old 2011-06-06, 20:42   Link #788
Tiresias
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I wonder how she'd stack up against Ein, who apparently does not actually use magic in her Kaiser Arts?
I thought her Kaiser Arts were a form of full contact magic - damage absorption, power enhancement, body reinforcement, the whole package - just like those Ki-using shonen fighting manga's? Those are not feats you can achieve through pure muscle, no matter how long and hard you train
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Old 2011-06-06, 21:07   Link #789
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Yeah, pretty sure Einhart uses magic, just more compressed/internal, less of the external flashy stuff we see in the series usually. Actually seems to be how most of the characters in this do things, barring a couple of exceptions.
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Old 2011-06-07, 01:31   Link #790
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This is just a personal theory, but... I think one of the reasons why Miura has been given so much attention/development despite being a new character (out of thin air, Vivid being her début series), is that she is an actual "underdog" character.

Amongst the protagonists introduced so far, she is the only one without a "fantastical" background/profile. Vivio and Einhart are former Kaisers, Rio has dual elemental affinity, Corona has her Golem, and Lucetia has her doom bugs. If any of those characters won, there would be a lingering feeling that, "Well, she was that special."

Miura however, only has her hands to speak with (and feet). In a competition of monsters, the only thing she has going for her is "hard work" (Guts! Glory!). Her victories would essentially fulfil the timeless fan favourite trope of "Zero to Hero". It is a very common trope used in fighting tournaments too (extremely so).

There are also shades of the series trying to depict Vivio as one, but it is kinda hard to do that considering her heritage. They can beat her knees till it's blue-black, but the fact remains that she is still a living embodiment of a former Kaiser. Short of story kryptonite (which is usually lame by the way), it is my opinion that they would be better off trying to make her victories awesome (Rule of Cool!), instead of trying to play the "underdog" card.

Returning characters seldom make good underdogs because they were usually "Heroes" already by the end of the previous series. Resetting a character's status from Hero to Zero in a new series is irritating to fans (usually). Unless said character was a consistent "Zero" from the previous series.

So there you go... my current viewpoint on Vivid.

Strange how I thought I would end up analysing Force more... but that series feels like a ship being piloted by blind monkeys. They can't even execute their tropes properly. Oh well... at least Fortress Nanoha looks cool.

Cheers.
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Old 2011-06-07, 02:02   Link #791
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I dunno, I think what they're trying to do with Vivio and her apparent lack of affinity with her chosen style has some merit.
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Old 2011-06-07, 02:45   Link #792
Keroko
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They've already sort of story-kryptonited Vivio by talking away her armor and babbling some nonsense about her being 'unsuited for physical combat, and better of being a long range caster.'

Which, even though they are traits that are supposed to make Vivio's quest for power sympathetic and relatable, ironically have the opposite effect for me and are only annoying. I want to see Vivio use the powers of Olivie.
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Old 2011-06-07, 02:53   Link #793
Tiresias
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
So there you go... my current viewpoint on Vivid.

Strange how I thought I would end up analysing Force more... but that series feels like a ship being piloted by blind monkeys. They can't even execute their tropes properly. Oh well... at least Fortress Nanoha looks cool.
Interesting theory, Skane. I guess that makes Miura a Badass Normal (in a tournament where everybody uses magic, of course) of the story.

Pity it kinda sealed her fate, then (Read: future defeat ). Normals rarely win till the end (Kenichi is the only exception that came into mind) because of their lack of specialness. They are not the prophesied one, or son of a legendary warrior, or the one who found the strange artifact. Their eventual role is to be defeated halfway through the story and inspire the main hero (the "special" one) with their stubborn determination as well as giving the latter more motive in winning.

Though, this train of thought resurfaced the reason I never rooted for Vivio: she's not that special. Yes, she's the title character as well as being clone of the Sankt Kaiser, but that's it. There's nothing in her character that made me want to cheer for her. She has nothing to lose except for a slightly bruised ego, but that also goes for just about every contestant. She didn't seem to pour as much ambition on winning like Miura or Katana Girl (yet). Heck, even Heidi's vague "I want to be strong enough to not lose anyone" has more weight.

If Vivio for some reason lose, I won't be sad. I'm still sad at Katana Girl's defeat.

It was cool until Tohma sliced some and then Nanoha merely stared at her broken cannon dumbstruck instead of keeping a distance from her melee enemy. Forget spells, not even her instincts/battle awareness survived the jobbing.
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Old 2011-06-07, 02:54   Link #794
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And to be fair, I genuinely don't know if they're going to find a way to try and justify Vivio vs. Einhart in the finals, or if it's just going to be Ein there and Vivio'll be cheering her on (I'll be very surprised if they manage to have Vivio go all the way alone, though that would be genuinely fun).
Well, I hope they do a Vivio vs Einhart...but just not in the finals. Maybe in Semi-finals

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
This is just a personal theory, but... I think one of the reasons why Miura has been given so much attention/development despite being a new character (out of thin air, Vivid being her début series), is that she is an actual "underdog" character.

Amongst the protagonists introduced so far, she is the only one without a "fantastical" background/profile. Vivio and Einhart are former Kaisers, Rio has dual elemental affinity, Corona has her Golem, and Lucetia has her doom bugs. If any of those characters won, there would be a lingering feeling that, "Well, she was that special."

Miura however, only has her hands to speak with (and feet). In a competition of monsters, the only thing she has going for her is "hard work" (Guts! Glory!). Her victories would essentially fulfil the timeless fan favourite trope of "Zero to Hero". It is a very common trope used in fighting tournaments too (extremely so).
Though, Miura sure has the talent to back it up...she seems to be like Nanoha, minus the family background

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
There are also shades of the series trying to depict Vivio as one, but it is kinda hard to do that considering her heritage. They can beat her knees till it's blue-black, but the fact remains that she is still a living embodiment of a former Kaiser. Short of story kryptonite (which is usually lame by the way), it is my opinion that they would be better off trying to make her victories awesome (Rule of Cool!), instead of trying to play the "underdog" card.
Actually, I'm hoping to see a revivial of her Sanckt Kaiser's Armor (full or partial).
If not, it'll feel like they used it in StrikerS only because of her Final Boss status

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Strange how I thought I would end up analysing Force more... but that series feels like a ship being piloted by blind monkeys. They can't even execute their tropes properly. Oh well... at least Fortress Nanoha looks cool.
lol...blind monkeys. Mental image is hilarious XD
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Old 2011-06-07, 03:08   Link #795
Justin_Brett
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Well, Tiresias, Vivio's supposed to partially take after her mother in this story, yeah? And Nanoha's never really been the focal point of any of the seasons, even if she's the title character. She's really more like a Supporting Protagonist in a way, especially in StrikerS; more focus is put on how she affects others than how they effect her.

So Einhart overshadowing Vivio a little makes a bit more sense if you think of it that way.
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Old 2011-06-07, 03:14   Link #796
Keroko
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Though, this train of thought resurfaced the reason I never rooted for Vivio: she's not that special. Yes, she's the title character as well as being clone of the Sankt Kaiser, but that's it.
Titular character, clone of the Sankt Kaiser, extremely good at analyzing, extremely talented in both academics, magic and even martial arts despite everyone telling her she isn't suited for it, and the only reason she's less special than she was in the series is because plothaxx took away her awesome powers.

I'd still call Vivio pretty darn special.

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There's nothing in her cha[/INDENT]racter that made me want to cheer for her. She has nothing to lose except for a slightly bruised ego, but that also goes for just about every contestant. She didn't seem to pour as much ambition on winning like Miura or Katana Girl (yet). Heck, even Heidi's vague "I want to be strong enough to not lose anyone" has more weight.
Good point. In regards to who has the most to lose, Einhart is currently at the top of the list what with the whole 'showing the power of the Kaiser arts' being her lifelong ambition and all.

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It was cool until Tohma sliced some and then Nanoha merely stared at her broken cannon dumbstruck instead of keeping a distance from her melee enemy. Forget spells, not even her instincts/battle awareness survived the jobbing.
Nanoha has always been stupid when fighting melee enemies. Fate, Vita, Vivio and now Thoma. I'd hoped Force would fix that little annoyance, but I guess not.
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Old 2011-06-07, 03:15   Link #797
Tiresias
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Well, Tiresias, Vivio's supposed to partially take after her mother in this story, yeah? And Nanoha's never really been the focal point of any of the seasons, even if she's the title character. She's really more like a Supporting Protagonist in a way, especially in StrikerS; more focus is put on how she affects others than how they effect her.

So Einhart overshadowing Vivio a little makes a bit more sense if you think of it that way.
Ah, but Nanoha had better "why I mustn't lose" reasons than her daughter.

The big picture: The fate of Earth (TOS, A's) and Midchilda (StrikerS).

On a more personal level: pity for the sad-eyed girl (TOS), the volatile midget and her not-so-merry friend(A's), and the life of her daughter.

Yes, other characters sometimes steal the motivation spotlight, but at least whenever the screen returns to Nanoha you can remember that "oh right, she can't lose too."

I think some scenes were supposed to indicate that Vivio also have something to prove to Heidi, but I just don't get any.
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Old 2011-06-07, 11:21   Link #798
Justin_Brett
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They kinda do need an Olivie flashback without Klaus in it, yeah. Or something, anyway, but it's still kinda early in this arc.
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Old 2011-06-07, 12:12   Link #799
Akiyoshi
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Nanoha has always been stupid when fighting melee enemies. Fate, Vita, Vivio and now Thoma. I'd hoped Force would fix that little annoyance, but I guess not.
She was surprinsingly clever during her 2nd fight with Signum, tough. Taking distance, exploiting Signum's limits as a swordswoman, setting traps and such. Even if i like Signum more i must admit that Nanoha showed a wonderful display of skill on that fight.

On the Vivio subject i have th same problem as everyone here, i won't be able to emphat with Vivio's motivation it's just not strong enough, it get slightly better after she resolves to show Einhart how strong she can become buit it still feels like she's just playing, i don't feel any passion from her, Einhart a stronger motive and is more passionate towards martial arts. I can feel Miura's nervousness and excitement by having the change to test her strenght against the best fighters of the city. Micaiah also wants to test herself and pursue a chance to settle counts with Sieglinde, even Nove's motivations as a trainer have more impact because it shows how much she has matured since StrikerS adn that she applies the experiences and mistakes of her life as wisdom that she can transmit to her students(i feel a close connection between Nove and Einhart).

Rio and Corona also lacks proper motivation but it isn't that bad because they're support characters, Vivio is the title protagonist but simphazise with her quest is a bit dificult. Probably Sieglinde beats Einhart and manage to give Vivio a true motive to fuel her ambitions as a fighter. Only time can tell.
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Old 2011-06-07, 17:44   Link #800
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I wouldn't be surprise if the last chapter will have something like this:

Vivio: Well, this is it...

Einhart: Yeah.

Vivio: This battle will decide everything.

Einhart: *nodding and looking stoic as ever*

[Vivio and Einhart ready themselves]

Vivio: Ready or not....

Einhart: ...HERE I COME!

[And the scene ends with both of them throwing a fist at each other]

The End

So we will never know who won. :/
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