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Old 2011-09-25, 08:53   Link #1141
Proto
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Those cases are different. In sports series the focus are the characters. In SoL the focus is the setting itself.

I don't even know what Vivid is supposed to be. That doesn't stop me from liking it though.
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Old 2011-09-25, 09:13   Link #1142
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I have issues with Vivid, and it's lack of plot (especially compared to the loads of plot and mystery in Force), but with all things, you have to take them for what they are. Nothing will ever measure up to one's perfect expectations. I'll always wish for more.

But I suppose I could bitch about it instead; that would be real productive. :P
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Old 2011-09-25, 09:21   Link #1143
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Ok, so looking at the summery it was next round. That's why she can take 7000 more and still be standing.
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Old 2011-09-25, 09:41   Link #1144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
In sports series the focus are the characters. In SoL the focus is the setting itself.
Characters are usually more important than setting in SoL. And Vivid is a mix of both anyways. We saw 10 times more of Mid and it's everyday life in Vivid than in StrikerS. And we already know most of the new characters pretty well. I like new characters and care about them, which cannot be said about new characters in Force. Maybe with the sole exception of Isis.

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Originally Posted by Kaijo View Post
I have issues with Vivid, and it's lack of plot (especially compared to the loads of plot and mystery in Force)
Sometimes less plot is better than a bad plot.
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Old 2011-09-25, 09:59   Link #1145
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And I enjoy both. Yeah, I don't really like how Vivid floats in the air without a clear goal (even winning the championship isn't really painted as a goal with solid underlying motivations so usual to championship manga for anyone but Einhart. And even that's not being acted upon as much as it should) but even despite that, I can still enjoy it.

I just let the things I like in Vivid balance out the things I don't, which leaves me with a manga I still enjoy with every new chapter.
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Old 2011-09-25, 10:51   Link #1146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru
Wait, so all sports and SoL anime/manga don't have plot? You need serious battles to death or saving the world to call it plot?
Is that honestly what you think the plots of not!sports/not!SoL series are all about? Really?

When I read posts like that, I feel grateful that I've read stuff like Planetes, and am reading Beelzebub.

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And Vivid is a mix of both anyways.
I can not agree with this. Vivio and Einhart are far, far, far, far more important to the title than the back drop. But since we're on that subject, what new information have we found out about daily life in Mid-Childa, or rather, Vivio's daily life on Mid-Childa?

She has baths with her family, bathes with her friends, goes to school, goes to the Saint Church to visit sleeping Ixpellia, practices Strike Arts with her friends and Nove. The only parts that have received any kind of focus beyond a panel or two are the baths, and the Strike Arts. We know she gets good grades, well, great! Do we actually have any kind of significant attention paid to her passing class, working on her studies, anything?

What about the setting?

Mid-Childa has a interdimensional fightan' tournament. We discover that there are delinquents and dojo members, that Einhart beat up off screen in passing, that have all of zero chance of ever appearing due to lack of little girls in their particular ranks. We find out that there are differently styled dojos.

What about seeing Mid-Childa itself? We saw Cranagan, the Erusea District, East Mid-Childa, parts of North Mid-Childa, Hotel Augusta, lots and lots of locations in StrikerS, not the mention the TSAB and Saint Church installations.

What notable places do we see in ViViD that we didn't in StrikerS? The beach side where Miura saw Hayate, Michaiah's and the Nakajima dojos, the tournament building, St Hilde. Of course, also the very small amount of scenery from Carnaaji.

It's all peanuts really, much less than StrikerS. The only really juicy parts that have any weight behind them, would be the flashbacks to the Belkan wars, and even they aren't expanded upon a whole lot because the more important stuff is in the present.

But if people enjoy ViViD and Force, or just ViVid, or just Force, or neither, or six of one and half a dozen of the other, well, that's cool. I may be a pessimist by nature, but Kaijo and Keroko have the right idea. I'm still willing to deal with the hand we're dealt.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:16   Link #1147
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Originally Posted by Kuze View Post
It's all peanuts really, much less than StrikerS.
Good joke.

What did we see in StrikerS? RF6 HQ, GF HQ, forests and abandoned cities full of copy-paste buildings.

That one episode when they had a day off and I was hoping to actually see a populated city turned into battle episode in 10 minutes.

It was enraging how underdeveloped Mid was in StrikerS.

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Originally Posted by Kuze View Post
Is that honestly what you think the plots of not!sports/not!SoL series are all about? Really?
No. But it sure seems like some people do.

Vivid has plot. Just because it's not about "serious" battles for Lost Logia again some people say it's not plot.

And if you ask me it's a far better plot than some ultra generic and stupid shonen crap from Force.
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Old 2011-09-25, 12:40   Link #1148
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StrikerS focused more on develop the political/military side of Mid-Childa while ViVid becomes interesting by showing how is the life on the real Mid-Childa, giving a good glimpse at various aspects of their society.
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Old 2011-09-25, 16:44   Link #1149
Kuze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
It was enraging how underdeveloped Mid was in StrikerS.
Note that I at no point ever said that StrikerS had more slice of life showcasing than ViViD. Nor did I ever say that I thought that StrikerS fully developed Mid.

What I did say was that it did much more than ViViD in showing what Mid looked like. And ViViD, well, what has ViViD shown us about the setting of Mid? Forget the TSAB for a moment. What new cultural, social, or local concepts has ViViD shown about Mid?

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No. But it sure seems like some people do.
Really? And this is how you extrapolate someone saying that ViViD is generic and aimless into being a catch all for the genres of sports and /life ?

Quote:
Just because it's not about "serious" battles for Lost Logia again some people say it's not plot.
Why not just name the people who say that it doesn't have plot? I myself think it has tiny shreds of plot floating around in the far distance, sometimes picked up on. And what is in between is, to me, ultra generic and boring as hell fare. Does this mean that I must feel that, say, The Legend of Koizumi or Soul Eater Not has no plot? No, it sure as hell doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi
ViVid becomes interesting by showing how is the life on the real Mid-Childa,giving a good glimpse at various aspects of their society
Explain.
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Old 2011-09-25, 18:10   Link #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
StrikerS focused more on develop the political/military side of Mid-Childa while ViVid becomes interesting by showing how is the life on the real Mid-Childa, giving a good glimpse at various aspects of their society.
Yeeeeah, gonna have to disagree with you there. The only aspect of Mid Childan life being showcased explicitly is the tournament process, and since it's a yearly event it's hardly part of every day life.

Anyways, inevitably Vivid has no real relevance. At the end of the day the events of Vivid happen and it has no bearing on anything. There's nothing at stake. And that's all fine and dandy. Fluff series are still enjoyable.
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Old 2011-09-25, 18:28   Link #1151
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Even if they've only shown bits and pieces of it, it's still more than what was shown in StrikerS.
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Old 2011-09-25, 18:29   Link #1152
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Originally Posted by 00-Raiser View Post
Yeeeeah, gonna have to disagree with you there. The only aspect of Mid Childan life being showcased explicitly is the tournament process, and since it's a yearly event it's hardly part of every day life.

Anyways, inevitably Vivid has no real relevance. At the end of the day the events of Vivid happen and it has no bearing on anything. There's nothing at stake. And that's all fine and dandy. Fluff series are still enjoyable.
What I do like about Vivid though is that it's pretty much slice-of-life besides the tournament part. Makes it really enjoyable to read and don't you think the background here and there looks great?
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Old 2011-09-25, 18:52   Link #1153
Kuze
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Originally Posted by Justin_Brett View Post
Even if they've only shown bits and pieces of it, it's still more than what was shown in StrikerS.
Which is true indeed. It can't be argued really. It's just as you say, bits and pieces of it. Severely, severely undeveloped.

For all of its many faults, StrikerS at least managed to (sloppily) establish Mid-Childa as a (supposedly) inhabited planet, as opposed to S1 and A's in which Uminari City might as well have been the center of the Earth surrounded by the mythical realm of "other Japan", and England being somewhere or other.

Anyways. I remember that the matches can only last for three minutes, so I guess prize fighting rules are in place. If it lasts for three rounds, whoever has the advantage in points wins?
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Old 2011-09-25, 22:25   Link #1154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
Sometimes less plot is better than a bad plot.
Good thing there is no bad plot in Vivid or Force then, eh? :P

I will say this... without a plot, it makes it hard to care what happens. There is nothing at stake in Vivid, so whether they win or lose their fights, I don't really care. The only fight I've been interested in so far has been this Corona match, because I wanted to see what she could do. But other than that... who cares if Vivio or Ein or whoever wins the tourney? If they lose, it won't be a big deal. They can do it again next year.

Whereas with Force, we have a very definite thing at stake: towns, and scores of people, are being wiped off the mat. The first brush with the enemy from RF6, showcased that our heroes can't just curbstomp them like normal. And whatever the Hucks/Corporations are up to, we know it can't be good... and we wonder just how bad it will be for our heroes should the Hucks/Corporations succeed.

That's what plot does. It gives you a reason to get invested, to sit on the edge of your seat.

Having said that, I don't mind Vivid's lack of plot much. It does have some interesting things, sorta like reading a comprehensive guide vs. an actual novel.

But here's the kicker: I don't whine about the things I find lacking in Vivid or Force (and yes, I do realize there are things that could be done better in Force). Sure, we all have different tastes so different things will appeal to us. And it's okay to say what you don't like.

But what makes everyone else upset at things, is the constant posting about the exact same dislikes. You've seen how people have reacted to Aki and his Signum issues. Don't be like that, Iromaru. No one likes it when someone is like that. You aren't going to magically make everyone here hate the manga, and your posts aren't going to actually change the story one way or another.

Accept it for what it is, flaws and all... or if it bothers you so much, don't read it.
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Old 2011-09-25, 23:10   Link #1155
Proto
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I will say this... without a plot, it makes it hard to care what happens
Not necesarely, you just care about it in a different way. (as you said yourself) Cue in true SoL (ARIA esque) or character focused series (Kokoro Library for example). You certainly don't care too much about the character's fate, but you certainly care about them in an exploratory way.

Of course, expectations are also a big part of the whole picture, and I'm sure most people didn't come to a series in the Nanoha franchise where plot wasn't the focus at all. But then again it's a matter of switching expectations accordingly.
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Old 2011-09-26, 02:51   Link #1156
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Arrow

Plot is not an end-all-be-all deal-breaker in a story. Otherwise stories like ARIA would have been failures, but instead, the manga-ka made a comfortable enough living from its success. Nobody complains about the lack of an over-arcing plot in ARIA, because it is not what ARIA is all about. It's more about its scenery-porn and "so-heartwarming-it-makes-you-want-to-die" moments that makes it so... endearing to its audience.

Plot... would only be a deal-breaker if a series chooses to actively claim that it has a compelling one, but fails to deliver on it. If however, a series never makes a pretence of having one, it's hard to knock against it for it.

Force thus far, does have a compelling plot. The idea is there, and it IS intriguing. To me personally, Force's problem is not really its plot idea, but more on its execution. I have already said my pieces in the Force thread, so I won't repeat them here.

Vivid on the other hand, seems to be more of a "world-builder" story. At least that is the impression I am getting from it. They are expanding more on what the Mid-childan society/culture is like and is generally a light-hearted affair. If they want, they could also expand further on what Ancient Belka was like, using Einhart for background information.

Cheers.
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Old 2011-09-26, 03:18   Link #1157
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Hmm... Corona is definitely kicking butt. I didn't think she would, I'm impressed by that. I look forward to seeing the rest of the battle, if nothing else. However, I don't agree with the idea that Vivid lacks plot, personally, but that's been done to death, just saying I think it does, it's just feeling somewhat slot because it's a monthly manga.
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Old 2011-09-26, 04:06   Link #1158
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Lacking the plot is not a problem. The problem is, the conflict is less flavored. If the physical conflict just does not matter. It's just that if not balanced with inner conflict, it's all pointless. Because the inner conflict is the most important element in the storyline.

ViVid so far has shown its fangs to the fans who miss old school style magical girl, and invites readers to get to know more about the history of Ancient Belka. It's just too much fanservice displayed. And to note again is the number of characters that continues bloated and bloated. If not react to it carefully and wisely, either ViVid and Force could be two of Nanoha franchise is losing focus and protracted without clear direction.
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Old 2011-09-26, 07:40   Link #1159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Not necesarely, you just care about it in a different way. (as you said yourself)
Oh, I didn't say I didn't care completely... if I did, I wouldn't be reading Vivid. I just said a lack of plot makes it hard to care. I recently watched Dog Days, and while mildly interesting, there wasn't much of a plot there, either. No real danger. And the result was that it felt really boring.

The latest Vivid chapter is a real good example of boring, too, because we get page after page of people going "I'm going to do my best!" and "Do you're best!" and "We're all going to have a fun time!"

It's downtime between action, and without a plot, it comes across much more like dragging things out. Whereas downtime in Force is still interesting because plot details are still being revealed during it. Since Vivid has no real plot, nothing much is there to keep you interested between fights. As I said, there is nothing at stake, at least nothing that the reader really cares about.

But I do care about the world details, and seeing how the characters have grown and changed. But it's in more in a way that I would read a Battletech technical readout, or a Star Trek Technical manual, or a D&D comprehensive guide. Interesting details, but not exactly a story.
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Old 2011-09-26, 10:14   Link #1160
Akiyoshi
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I become a meta example now xD?

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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Plot is not an end-all-be-all deal-breaker in a story. Otherwise stories like ARIA would have been failures, but instead, the manga-ka made a comfortable enough living from its success. Nobody complains about the lack of an over-arcing plot in ARIA, because it is not what ARIA is all about. It's more about its scenery-porn and "so-heartwarming-it-makes-you-want-to-die" moments that makes it so... endearing to its audience.
This. Not all stories are about "saving the world" i love Azumanga Daioh for example. The series barely have any plot but is fun as hell and i care very much for the characters(Tomo-chan FTW!).

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Force thus far, does have a compelling plot. The idea is there, and it IS intriguing. To me personally, Force's problem is not really its plot idea, but more on its execution. I have already said my pieces in the Force thread, so I won't repeat them here.
Also agreed with this, i already said that Force isn't thaaat bad as a stand alone story. My own take on it is that i feel the old cast is out of place in that story, that's only me but i also can feel the bad execution at some points. In fact, the bad execution of various elements in Force is what allowed me to note good elements in it easier(like the recent Ch. 19, the Hucks VS. Fakes fight was much better coreographed than any other battle of that manga to date).

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Originally Posted by Zero Hurricane View Post
Lacking the plot is not a problem. The problem is, the conflict is less flavored. If the physical conflict just does not matter. It's just that if not balanced with inner conflict, it's all pointless. Because the inner conflict is the most important element in the storyline.
Forgive me for opening the Pandora's Box again but i feel this is also present in Force to degree, i'm councsious that the Signum VS. Cypha fight was meant to stablish the Huckebein as a threat as also depicting in detail what they can do with their powers, both objetives where accomplished but the characters itself didn't gained much from that fight. Cypha hasn't become the "General Grievous" that we expected slaughtering tons of strong characters adn instead becomes an exposition lady most of the manga and Signum didn't even cares about the fight or what's happening as a consequence so ...character-wise it was a pointless fight, neother of the three involved had any real motivation.

I like ViVid but i also acknowledge this problem. Einhart is the one closer to have something we can call a "goal" and, while the fights do a good job at showcasing the powers and abilities of the contestants, there isn't any conflict or motives strong enough to justify the effort of the girls on the battlefield. I like tournament arcs because normally those work to flesh out new characters, stories and fightstyles and those who become popular enough usually manage to stick on the main plot and make more appearances in future chapters, even becoming support/main characters with enough luck.

Almost zero background is given in ViVid for the other girls aside from what we can see about their interactions between them. I wonder what kind of backstory Micaiah had to be that serious and focused on becoming strong(all we know is that Sieglinde curbstomped her at some point and she wanted to settle the scores), Harii is comically sensitive but also very hot blooded during a fight, it will be interesting to know the background behind that personality and i really want to know what's the past of that little witch-themed girl. I feel that the only showed at the moment with potential to be more fleshed out are Victoria and Sieglinde.

Aside of those flaws(and the inecessary excess of fanservice), i find ViVid as an enjoyable story, the plot is weak but it have interesting characters, show more about normal mid-childan life and the think i like the most is that it finally compensate minor characters with some love and screentime(isn't that right Zafira?). We know the girls are the main characters but is good to see abadoned characters finally having the chance to speak and do stuff.

I want to have a Zafira VS. Nove match. That will be agood fight xD.

....also the lack of unecessary bad blood between contestants which prevents the opponents from becomin gloating smug supers is one of the things i like of this manga xD.
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