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Old 2011-09-26, 20:03   Link #1181
Zero Hurricane
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Because in every tournament arc, the protagonist not just become more powerful, but also aims to please the people he or she loved, such as friends, family, and even lovers. By studying each of deficiency and advantages the opponents have, the protagonist's ability more and more steadily, and one step ahead. Who knows if he or she can make new friends.

And coupled with the conflict in which protagonist experiencing trauma. Traumatized by the defeat that he or she had experienced before. But over time, he or she managed to defeat the fear he experienced.

If shonen manga can do like I said before, even the sports can do it too. Vivid so far more concerned sheer enjoyment than the personal conflicts of each character. To test their abilities through the tournament, it doesn't matter anyway. But more important is the mental capabilities and intelligence in dealing with any difficulties that exist. That requirement is even more important if you want to become stronger.
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Old 2011-09-26, 20:16   Link #1182
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Still, all the Vivid characters' motivations boil down to "I want to win."

That's all fine and well but it is comparatively shallow. I'll use Moshidora again: not only did they want to get to Koshien, they wanted to go for the sake of an ill close friend
Spoiler:


Vivid is fine, but it could be a lot better with some added depth.
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Old 2011-09-26, 20:46   Link #1183
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In essence, every tournament arc has a more important goal, besides simply being the strongest. Some wanted to continue the struggle waged by the seniors, some are like happy people who are dear. In addition, the main character can also learn from rivals who could be inspired to become better than before.

Perhaps the example that you point out is good. I can also give other examples. For example, Naruto in Chuunin Exam Arc. He was not just become stronger, but also wants to find its identity as a true Konoha shinobi. In addition, he can also get a new friend, although it should be through a fierce fight. The other characters, too, each one has its own conflicts, such as the conflict between the relatives as Neji and Hinata, friendship as Sakura and Ino, and also Gaara, who consider himself as living weapon. And that's what enriches the story itself.

If their training in Carnaaji just add a little mental training and intelligence, may be further enrich their capabilities, in addition to cutting water training.
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Old 2011-09-26, 20:55   Link #1184
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That's Nanoha's spartan way of training, you and your frinds become stronger by beating the lights out of each other for various days xD
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Old 2011-09-26, 20:58   Link #1185
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Still, all the Vivid characters' motivations boil down to "I want to win."
There is a bit more than that.

Einhart wants to fulfill the dream of her long deceased ancestor. Vivio wants to prove everyone that she can get good at strike arts despite the fact she's not really suited for it. Einhart is changing and slowly opening for others. There is the issue of sleeping Ixpellia that was obviously mentioned for a reason. We are slowly getting to know what exactly happened during the times of Sankt Kaiser. Etc.

Sure, it's a very basic plot. But saying it's not a real plot because there is no real danger is stupid.

There is no real danger in Force either. Who cares if some unnamed people we never knew are dying? Who cares if some villains we know for one chapter are killed? Nobody important will die. Signum, Hayate, Vita and Erio are a proof of that. I don't care if people I don't care about die.

There is no real tension or danger of death because we all know Tsuzuki will never kill any of the popular characters. Just because there is some blood doesn't mean that fights in force are suddenly more serious and interesting. Audience must care about the dead person for death to have any impact at all.

That's why I don't understand why battles in Vivid are suddenly less interesting because "they are not for real". No matter if it's Vivid or Force in the end characters will end up in hospital in the worst case scenario anyways.
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Old 2011-09-26, 21:06   Link #1186
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To be honest, all of the newcomers kinda have the vibe like they would be really upset about outright losing. Llike Fate during the A's comic versus Chrono, just without anything at stake really, other than... I don't know, being afraid of having their feelings hurt? Afraid Vivio won't pay as much attention to them if they do? IDK.

On a side note, I still have no definite conclusion on the reliability of the MCA traducciones en espaņol para ViViD, but if I read it right, Sieg and company decide that they should not go to see Micaiah this year after she lost to Miura. Which I'm sure probably has a reasonable thread behind that, but still comes off as just dismissive. I can't say it's really the attitude of a warrior.

But eh, I seriously doubt that we'll never see Micaiah again. She'll just have to wait for a while probably.
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Old 2011-09-26, 21:13   Link #1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
Einhart wants to fulfill the dream of her long deceased ancestor. Vivio wants to prove everyone that she can get good at strike arts despite the fact she's not really suited for it. Einhart is changing and slowly opening for others. There is the issue of sleeping Ixpellia that was obviously mentioned for a reason. We are slowly getting to know what exactly happened during the times of Sankt Kaiser. Etc.
Indeed, but personally I'm curious, what would happen if ever Ixpellia awoke sometime later. Perhaps she woke up in the middle of the tournament

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There is no real danger in Force either. Who cares if some unnamed people we never know are dying? Who cares if some villains we know for one chapter are killed? Nobody important will die. Signum, Hayate, Vita and Erio are a proof of that. I don't care if people I don't care about die.
Since the controversial Chapter 13, the Huckebeins being the real danger after Hayate stabbed through back. Indeed Hayate and the others just okay, it just the antagonists' swell-headed nature make them more worthy to die, than to befriended. However, my thinking changed since Chapter 19. Only a portion of their personality that can be cured, others must be discarded because the problem itself is the culprit.

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That's why I don't understand why battles in Vivid are suddenly less interesting because "they are not for real". No matter if it's Vivid or Force in the end characters will end up in hospital in the worst case scenario anyways.
Probably due to increasing its character, its quality decreases.
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Old 2011-09-26, 21:20   Link #1188
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I still have no definite conclusion on the reliability of the MCA traducciones en espaņol para ViViD, but if I read it right, Sieg and company decide that they should not go to see Micaiah this year after she lost to Miura.
Oh, one of them 'showing concern = pity' things? Never did like those, really.
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Old 2011-09-26, 21:21   Link #1189
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See, this is why I'm so glad that I read Planetes. No main character died, and yet we got to see how the world at large was forced into social, political, and economic upheaval and change. There was danger all the same, and it was handled maturely. Among love between space garbage collectors, and a hot shot pilot reconciling with her son.

Not all stakes have death waiting at the end. But hey, that's why I have zero interest in describing genres and comics with vast strokes. I'd sooner recognize differences than similarities, kthxbye.

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Oh, one of them 'showing concern = pity' things? Never did like those, really.
Maybe, maybe not, I guess that waiting for VT english is the best chance at a definitive answer.

That said? One of the reasons why I absolutely love Game of Honor with Samuel L. Mother****ing Jackson and the Friday Night Lights movie is that while losing is /not/ a happy hour for either team, they can, and do hold their heads high with a measure of pride. They did absolutely everything they could, and lost to a superior team that did the same. They've got zero reason to be ashamed.

Of course, it's hard to apply the same lesson to series like Negima or ViViD or Prince of Tennis with their SUPER BEST AT EVERYTHING AWESOME BEAUTIFUL MAX OUT HERITAGE INCREDIBLE (DID YOU HEAR ME BEFORE) ULTRA BESTEST characters who can make the efforts of others look, well, absolutely pitiful. But them's the cards.

Last edited by Kuze; 2011-09-26 at 21:31.
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Old 2011-09-26, 21:52   Link #1190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
Einhart wants to fulfill the dream of her long deceased ancestor.
Einhart hasn't even mentioned that since her 2nd match with Vivio. She states that she's entered the tournament to see how strong she is. Her ancestor's memories don't factor into it.

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Vivio wants to prove everyone that she can get good at strike arts despite the fact she's not really suited for it.
Vivio's never said anything like that. It was Shante, Otto, and Deed who were discussing that. Vivio's only ever said she's doing what she's doing because she likes it.

A character loses a match in Vivid, it's no big deal, they can just try again next time no problem. Section 6 loses to the Huckebein, that means there's a gang of dangerous criminals roaming free that could take even more lives and continue to be a threat that could undermine the Bureau as a whole. Plus the failure calls Section 6's abilities into question and so on.

You can clearly see which has more weight.

In the Chuunin exams, failure could have potentially meant death.
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Old 2011-09-26, 21:56   Link #1191
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And then no-one important actually saw the consequences of that statement at all. I don't even think anyone died from stuff in the exams, just outside interference from the villains. Anything can potentially happen. Potentially, Nanoha could have gotten more than superficially wounded in that last fight, but that was also demonstrably a false threat.

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Old 2011-09-26, 22:22   Link #1192
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It's just a matter of having something on the line. Like, say, if Seiglinde really does have some health problems and soon she'll be too sick to do anything so this'll be her last tournament and she wants to go out on top. That would be something you could get really invested in.
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Old 2011-09-26, 22:42   Link #1193
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That most likely wouldn't just be the threat of something by itself, so I can't say I'd mind.
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Old 2011-09-26, 23:42   Link #1194
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There is no real danger in Force either. Who cares if some unnamed people we never knew are dying? Who cares if some villains we know for one chapter are killed? Nobody important will die. Signum, Hayate, Vita and Erio are a proof of that. I don't care if people I don't care about die.
There's a LOT of danger in Force but i agree with you in that the portrayal of the villains was weak during the first 18 chapters, as also the significance and background/aftermath of most of the battles, Tsuzuki seems to point at something very critical but chickens out when the time comes(that's one of the reasons i wished Signum died when he created the chance).

It's easier to enjoy and accept ViVid because so far the plot didn't make any big pretentions, the downside is that we can't feel any real conflict but the upside is that we aren't forced to expect some contrived plot either and thus we're able to accept the manga for what it is.
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Old 2011-09-27, 03:18   Link #1195
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spoiler ch 29
Spoiler:

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Old 2011-09-27, 07:25   Link #1196
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Sure, it's a very basic plot. But saying it's not a real plot because there is no real danger is stupid.
You know what's funny? Nobody is saying that. It's you who seems to think that every time someone says there's no plot that they mean danger.

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There is a bit more than that.

Einhart wants to fulfill the dream of her long deceased ancestor. Vivio wants to prove everyone that she can get good at strike arts despite the fact she's not really suited for it. Einhart is changing and slowly opening for others. There is the issue of sleeping Ixpellia that was obviously mentioned for a reason. We are slowly getting to know what exactly happened during the times of Sankt Kaiser. Etc.
Out of those two, only Einhart's is a true motivation. Vivio's is more mentioned on the side, and never really focused on as something she really wants to achieve. Heck, even Einhart's goal is fading more and more into the background. Scratch that, chapter 29 seems to be doing something about that. Nice.

Compare that to, say, Aria. A manga devoid of any fighting, with the biggest danger being falling of your gondola and getting wet. Yet, even in such an action-less manga, there's still a form of progression. Why? Because the main character has a clear goal which she (and in turn the story) focuses on. Yes, she has lots of fun adventures, but the red line remains constantly present, and you see the main character grow closer towards her goal as a result.

Vivid lacks this focus. It's not something that'll doom this manga right here, right now, and it's something that's easily fixed, but it is something that makes some people wonder where it is.

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That's why I don't understand why battles in Vivid are suddenly less interesting because "they are not for real". No matter if it's Vivid or Force in the end characters will end up in hospital in the worst case scenario anyways.
Vivid battles are less interesting because it doesn't matter who wins or loses. There doesn't have to be lives at stake. Nobody is claiming that. But look at any other sports manga. There's still something at stake in each and every one of them: A dream. A dream with often an interesting story behind it. Something that makes the character push themselves above and beyond their limits.

In Vivid though? The characters do this for the fun of it. They don't even expect to make it far themselves. Unlike other sports manga, where the characters drip with motivation to be the best, odds be damned.
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Old 2011-09-27, 07:57   Link #1197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iromaru View Post
That's why I don't understand why battles in Vivid are suddenly less interesting because "they are not for real". No matter if it's Vivid or Force in the end characters will end up in hospital in the worst case scenario anyways.
Just want to correct this, because the contestants won't end up in a hospital. All the damage is simulated due to magic; that was why they have safety devices. So we don't even have the threat of injury or death to motivate us.

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spoiler ch 29
Spoiler:
And looks like Corona is beating the crap out of Einhart, who then has a flashback to Claus & Olive days, which means Einhart will suddenly find the strength to win, most likely. Standard shonen thing. I have to say, though, the power levels on this are all over the map.
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Old 2011-09-27, 08:51   Link #1198
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Corona's been taking her vitamins.
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Old 2011-09-27, 09:10   Link #1199
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Apparently Corona will indeed face Sieglinde xD

...Kaiser arts were just flashy punches and kicks in the end apparently xDU
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Old 2011-09-27, 09:19   Link #1200
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Maybe I need to clarify this a bit, I'm not saying that Vivid's plot is good (it's not) but it's definitely not worse that Force's plot.

Both series fail horribly went it comes to plot, but at least Vivid managed to make me care about the new cast. It's obvious Vivid is supposed to be a series focused on characters, and it's doing a fine job with it's characters.

Force on the other hand is supposed to be a plot focused series. The problem is this plot is incredibly cliche and uninteresting. It's just another boy meets girl story with cliche as hell villains and popular characters forced into the mix to improve sales.

The big battle with Huckebeins played exactly as I expected, and was executed much worse that I hoped. Touma and Lily are horribly boring characters. Especially Touma who has DARK and SAD past, is suddenly best friends with all popular characters and became uber powerful for no reason other than because he's the MC. Huckebeins are boring and overpowered too.

What is Vivid supposed to be? A magical SoL manga with some fighting and fanservice. And it's exactly that.

What is Force supposed to be? A serious and plot heavy story with a dark tone. And it fails horribly at being what it's supposed to be.
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