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Old 2009-08-27, 05:18   Link #41
Heatth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ac195 View Post
Or could it be that Kyon has a little more faith in Haruhi and has grown a little? I think that's the case.
That was nt the point. This two exemple just prooves he knows Haruhi might be jelous of him.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No offense, but this strikes me as a HaruhiKyon shipper really grasping for straws.

Also, I dislike the heavy layers of pretentiousness that some fans are reading into Kyon and Koizumi - such a notion makes them far less likable as characters, imo.

It's really not that hard to simply accept that Kyon finds Mikuru more attractive than Haruhi. It's really not. Yes, Haruhi has a great look herself, but if Kyon's main thing is basic cuteness and/or breast size, Mikuru genuinely has Haruhi beat there.
True. However, I would say that, if we go for the character itself, not physical appearance, I would say Mikuru is the girl who he likes less. Of the three she is the one who she trust less. She is the more attractive in his eyes, though.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
4) I would have taken Itsuki up on his "I love you" suggestion from the endless summer arc. If it works out well... great. If it doesn't, I can always blame Itsuki.
lol

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I know real life people with domineering take-charge personalities like Haruhi. I met them in College. They're usually a blast to hang out with. At the high school level, I would have loved to have had a friend like Haruhi.
I kinda agree. I you know how to handle her, she is a fun person. She is very annoying to most, however. And her acts to the CCP prooves she can be 'dangerous' too.

Last edited by Heatth; 2009-08-27 at 05:31.
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Old 2009-08-27, 05:38   Link #42
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Do we know this for certain? I mean, was there actual dialogue in the later novels to this effect?
With the exception of the Nagato part, the FIRST novel spells it out. Mikuru is completely convinced that her merely being close to Kyon is enough to set Haruhi off, and she only admits to being from the future when Kyon asks about her personal life.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 05:58   Link #43
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Originally Posted by Heatth View Post



True. However, I would say that, if we go for the character itself, not physical appearance, I would say Mikuru is the girl who he likes less. Of the three she is the one who she trust less. She is the more attractive in his eyes, though.
I agree. Overall, I think that Kyon likes Haruhi more than he likes Mikuru. That he can't admit to himself.


Quote:
I kinda agree. I you know how to handle her, she is a fun person. She is very annoying to most, however. And her acts to the CCP prooves she can be 'dangerous' too.
Oh yes, I agree with this. Haruhi would make a great friend... but she'd also be somebody you'd hate to have as an enemy, too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
With the exception of the Nagato part, the FIRST novel spells it out. Mikuru is completely convinced that her merely being close to Kyon is enough to set Haruhi off, and she only admits to being from the future when Kyon asks about her personal life.
That alone doesn't really tell me that KyonMikuru is no-go for life. It just tells me that KyonMikuru is no-go for the extent of time that Haruhi is into Kyon.

We, as fans, are assuming HaruhiKyon is predestined... and it might be... or it could, in theory, simply be the Haruhi has a long crush on Kyon and Kyon helps her out for a key period of time, but she ends up with another guy... freeing Kyon up for Mikuru or Nagato. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility - I mean, it's certainly not likely, but it's not like the novel has absolutely blocked itself off from this avenue.


One more thing I want to say on Kyon, and I'm surprised that I haven't mentioned it yet...

He is the ultimate anti-exploitation character. He is so anti-exploitation/opportunistic that it's incredible - it's definitely one of his more admirable character traits in a morality sense, but also paradoxically one of his more questionable character traits in an intellectual sense.

Kyon basically knows that there's a girl with high-end reality altering powers that is very attached to him.

Now... you don't have to be a megalomaniacal villain to see the possibilities here. In fact, I should hope that everybody sees the possibilities inherent in this situation right now, before reading further.

I think that almost any character (other than Kyon) would at least be tempted to do the following given his situation...

1) Be really, really nice to Haruhi, do everything possible to get on her good side (up to and including becoming her boyfriend), and even leave her feeling indebted to you in some way if at all possible.

2) Then tell her how powerful she is, and persuade her to believe it. Use the "I am John Smith" line to make her consider that what you're telling her is true. On another board, I wrote the sort of dialogue that I think could get Haruhi to really test out her powers.

3) If you successfully complete steps 1 and 2... you now have, in essence, a fully self-aware genie with limitless wish-granting abilities that's your best friend/girlfriend. Eat your heart out, Disney's Alladin!

"Hey, Haruhi, why don't you have... I strike a Dr. Evil voice and look: One trillion yen!... just magically appear in two brand new Swiss bank accounts for you and me? Imagine what we could do with that money!"

"Hey, Haruhi, why not make us immortal, eh?"

"Hey, Haruhi, wouldn't it be cool to own an animation studio?"

"Hey, Haruhi, why not make yourself Prime Minister of Japan and me Prime Minister of Canada? It would be a blast!"


And so on, and so forth.

It just blows me away that Kyon doesn't even once seem to consider going down this path. Sure, dude, you find her annoying, but still... think of the possibilities!

In this sense, in particular, Kyon is perfect for hiding the fact that Haruhi is so powerful from her. A lot of people in his situation would try to take advantage of it, I think.
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Old 2009-08-27, 07:00   Link #44
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You forget that he has two reality-altering girls in his life, and while the other is (supposedly) limited in comparison, she's already at the "willing to do anything Kyon asks" stage, and has pretty much been that way since Melancholy.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 07:47   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No offense, but this strikes me as a HaruhiKyon shipper really grasping for straws.

Also, I dislike the heavy layers of pretentiousness that some fans are reading into Kyon and Koizumi - such a notion makes them far less likable as characters, imo.

It's really not that hard to simply accept that Kyon finds Mikuru more attractive than Haruhi. It's really not. Yes, Haruhi has a great look herself, but if Kyon's main thing is basic cuteness and/or breast size, Mikuru genuinely has Haruhi beat there.
To be honest, I don't think I've ever done any shipping for any series. xD I just go with the flow.
Regardless, because the novels are basically setting up the two, that's just the way I've read it up until now. I think Heatth explained it better than I did, anyway.
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Old 2009-08-27, 07:50   Link #46
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No, I wouldn't be.

Not to say I'd handle it terribly better than Kyon does, but snark is rarely my coping mechanism of choice. Quite the contrary, my coping mechanism of choice is usually to try to look on the bright side of things as much as possible.

If I was in Kyon's shoes...

1) I'd be less snarky

2) I probably would have had a worse, more long-term traumatized reaction to the Asakura incident... but not snarky so much as I'd be more jumpy and a bit more cautious. I think that most people would have, honestly. Kyon's got serious guts, I'll give him that.

3) I'd simply refuse to pay out Haruhi's outrageous financial penalties, whatever the consequences... or, if Kyon's financially loaded (as I frequently suspect since he never objects to those penalties), I'd be more generous upfront to avoid the degrading nature of taking such financial penalties.

4) I would have taken Itsuki up on his "I love you" suggestion from the endless summer arc. If it works out well... great. If it doesn't, I can always blame Itsuki.

5) Overall, I'd be enjoying it all a lot more than Kyon is.


Beyond that, I'm not sure. Overall, Kyon has a lot of guts, I'll give him that.
Haruhi wouldn't like you at all if that was the case. His "snarky" self is what makes him so different compared to every other guy that has approached her. And Kyon is enjoying everything, he just won't admit it openly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
That alone doesn't really tell me that KyonMikuru is no-go for life. It just tells me that KyonMikuru is no-go for the extent of time that Haruhi is into Kyon.

We, as fans, are assuming HaruhiKyon is predestined... and it might be... or it could, in theory, simply be the Haruhi has a long crush on Kyon and Kyon helps her out for a key period of time, but she ends up with another guy... freeing Kyon up for Mikuru or Nagato. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility - I mean, it's certainly not likely, but it's not like the novel has absolutely blocked itself off from this avenue.
This is pure delusion right here.

If the novel actually ends with a definitive couple it's gonna be KyonHaruhi... but that's only if it's a definitive ending and not some open-ended a day in the life of the SOS-dan ending.
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Old 2009-08-27, 09:03   Link #47
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I keep telling everyone, the ending is going to be Kyon and Haruhi lying on a beach, surrounded by the tang that the rest of humanity has become.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 09:08   Link #48
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I keep telling everyone, the ending is going to be Kyon and Haruhi lying on a beach, surrounded by the tang that the rest of humanity has become.
Like this?
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Old 2009-08-27, 10:49   Link #49
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Haruhi wouldn't like you at all if that was the case. His "snarky" self is what makes him so different compared to every other guy that has approached her.
There's more than one way to be different, ac. Being snarky isn't the only way. Also, most of Kyon's snarkiness is narration. How much of that Haruhi is even aware of is open to interpretation.

Furthermore, GMT earlier put forward some reasons for why Haruhi chose Kyon - snarkiness was not one of them.


Quote:
And Kyon is enjoying everything, he just won't admit it openly.
Enjoying everything, yet acting snarky all the time? He may be enjoying some of it, but I have a very hard time believing that he's enjoying all of it. It simply does not compute.


Quote:

This is pure delusion right here.
No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.


Quote:
If the novel actually ends with a definitive couple it's gonna be KyonHaruhi... but that's only if it's a definitive ending and not some open-ended a day in the life of the SOS-dan ending.
An open-ended conclusion is possible too, yes.


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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
You forget that he has two reality-altering girls in his life, and while the other is (supposedly) limited in comparison, she's already at the "willing to do anything Kyon asks" stage, and has pretty much been that way since Melancholy.
I don't think that Yuki would entertain suggestions that she would likely consider frivolous - like monetary enrichment.
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Old 2009-08-27, 10:57   Link #50
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Like this?
Something like that. Shame there's no pictures of them being the other way around.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.
Spoiler for Vol7 on.:
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 10:59   Link #51
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There's more than one way to be different, ac. Being snarky isn't the only way. Also, most of Kyon's snarkiness is narration. How much of that Haruhi is even aware of is open to interpretation.
Have to agree here. I find hard to believe anyone is aware of how snarky Kyon is.

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Enjoying everything, yet acting snarky all the time? He may be enjoying some of it, but I have a very hard time believing that he's enjoying all of it. It simply does not compute.
He at last, enjoy most of it. The end of Melancholy make it clear (come on he enjoied even when he was amost killed!!). There is also that other book. You should know which.


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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.
I think KyonxYuki very cute. I don't believe it is happening, thouhg. Novel9 back the focus to Haruhi.

Post Postum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Spoiler for Vol7 on.:
Wait, you are talking about which story?
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Old 2009-08-27, 11:04   Link #52
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Have to agree here. I find hard to believe anyone is aware of how snarky Kyon is.
Agreed.


Quote:
He at last, enjoy most of it. The end of Melancholy make it clear (come on he enjoied even when he was amost killed!!). There is also that other book. You should know which.
Most of it... probably. All of it? No. He's not enjoying Sighs. That's quite obvious, unless you think Kyon is the biggest self-deceiver ever.


Quote:
I think KyonxYuki very cute. I don't believe it is happening, thouhg. Novel9 back the focus to Haruhi.
I wouldn't bet money on it, either. I also think it has a low chance of happening. But it's not flat-out impossible. It wouldn't shock me if the story went this way. The novel writer obviously enjoys writing Nagato, and has left room to have the novels believably end on KyonxYuki, if he so desires.
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Old 2009-08-27, 11:20   Link #53
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Wait, you are talking about which story?
Spoiler for Vol7, Vol8, Vol9:
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 11:37   Link #54
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Agreed.
I agree.... Wait! I was already agreeing! You don't need to agree back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Most of it... probably. All of it? No. He's not enjoying Sighs. That's quite obvious, unless you think Kyon is the biggest self-deceiver ever.
Sighs is more an exeption the a rule.
Spoiler for [b]that[/b] Sigh's scene:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I wouldn't bet money on it, either. I also think it has a low chance of happening. But it's not flat-out impossible. It wouldn't shock me if the story went this way. The novel writer obviously enjoys writing Nagato, and has left room to have the novels believably end on KyonxYuki, if he so desires.
When you put in that way, yeah, you speek the true.

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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Spoiler for Vol7, Vol8, Vol9:
Oh, I see what you mean now. Tough it might be you who was expecting too much... exept it was what was happeing few volumes before.
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Old 2009-08-27, 11:51   Link #55
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Actually, I prefer Nagato in a supporting role. Just feels weird to have that someone like her taking the center stage for an extended period of time.

But... we have another topic to discuss Nagato. She doesn't need to take this one.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-08-27, 17:23   Link #56
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I'm going to say that there are times when Kyon seems too snarky to me; when the snark is so heavy laden that it contributes to the "unreliable narrator" effect that some of us here have pointed out.

Beyond that... I really don't see what's cool about always being negative.

Seriously.

Sure, a fair number of his comments and jokes are funny, but he goes overboard at times too, I think.
Now this sounds interesting. What do you think are some examples of Kyon's snark going overboard? I'm guessing that Sighs has some instances of this (I remember you saying that sometimes one might think Kyon almost hated Haruhi in that story), but do you remember any statements or passages that seem especially negative or harsh?

The only part where I didn't like Kyon so much (In the anime, I've never read the light novels) was actually his introductory diatribe about never believing in Santa Claus. There's no better way to come across as soulless and obnoxiously pragmatic than to describe at length how you lacked imagination even as a kid... not to mention that sort of conversation always annoyed me back in elementary school. "I stopped believing in Santa when I was six!" "I've known he's fake since I was three!" Yeah, congrats on being the most street-smart toddler around, I guess. I believed in him until I was 10 or 11 and enjoyed Christmas more because of it. The first impressions were forgotten quickly enough, though, as I realized that Kyon was not a pseudo-intellectual teenager as I first thought, but... well, Kyon. His negativity hasn't bothered me that much mainly because it's aimed at deserving targets (Haruhi and Koizumi; with everyone else, he seems pretty magnanimous and polite both in his discourse and internal monologues), but of course I haven't read the novels, where every line of exposition comes from Kyon and we get a better look into his head.
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Old 2009-08-27, 18:27   Link #57
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Now this sounds interesting. What do you think are some examples of Kyon's snark going overboard? I'm guessing that Sighs has some instances of this (I remember you saying that sometimes one might think Kyon almost hated Haruhi in that story), but do you remember any statements or passages that seem especially negative or harsh?
I'm going to evaluate a few examples of Kyon's snark going overboard, imo. Hopefully, this will help give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Kyon's narration is in quotation marks in order to make it easier to separate from my commentary. My commentary on the quote will be below a line after each one.


Spoiler for Novel 2, Prologue:



The next instance is in Chapter 1 of Sighs...

Spoiler for Sighs Chapter 1:



One short narration in Chapter 1...

Spoiler for Chapter 1 spoiler:



Get a load of this comparison between Haruhi and Mikuru...

Spoiler for Chapter 1 of Sighs:



More Chapter 1 coming up...

Spoiler for Chapter 1 of Sighs:


Now, some short zingers... (my comments for each is in paranthesis).

Spoiler for Sighs spoilers in general:



Anyway... does this prove my point? What do you think, Dr. Casey?


Quote:
The only part where I didn't like Kyon so much (In the anime, I've never read the light novels) was actually his introductory diatribe about never believing in Santa Claus. There's no better way to come across as soulless and obnoxiously pragmatic than to describe at length how you lacked imagination even as a kid... not to mention that sort of conversation always annoyed me back in elementary school. "I stopped believing in Santa when I was six!" "I've known he's fake since I was three!" Yeah, congrats on being the most street-smart toddler around, I guess. I believed in him until I was 10 or 11 and enjoyed Christmas more because of it. The first impressions were forgotten quickly enough, though, as I realized that Kyon was not a pseudo-intellectual teenager as I first thought, but... well, Kyon. His negativity hasn't bothered me that much mainly because it's aimed at deserving targets (Haruhi and Koizumi; with everyone else, he seems pretty magnanimous and polite both in his discourse and internal monologues), but of course I haven't read the novels, where every line of exposition comes from Kyon and we get a better look into his head.
I felt the exact same way over the Santa thing as you did.

In fairness, Kyon's a fair bit better in the anime - they tend to edit out or soften some of his harsher lines. But in the novels...
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Old 2009-08-27, 22:10   Link #58
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There's more than one way to be different, ac. Being snarky isn't the only way. Also, most of Kyon's snarkiness is narration. How much of that Haruhi is even aware of is open to interpretation.

Furthermore, GMT earlier put forward some reasons for why Haruhi chose Kyon - snarkiness was not one of them.

Enjoying everything, yet acting snarky all the time? He may be enjoying some of it, but I have a very hard time believing that he's enjoying all of it. It simply does not compute.

No, it's not. Other Haruhi fans other than myself have speculated that the series may end on KyonYuki. Certainly, the novels big focus lately has not been Haruhi - there's been far more focus on Yuki as of late. That at least raises the possibility of a KyonYuki ending.
Kyon's "snarky" self serves two purposes regarding Haruhi.
1) To actively challenge Haruhi in a some what playful manner.
2) To cover up his own feelings. (Koizumi points this out a couple times)

As for any other coupling, PURE DELUSION! You can lie to yourselves all you want but it's gonna be KyonHaruhi or an open ended one.
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Old 2009-08-28, 03:01   Link #59
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Sorry to veer a little from the current topic, but speaking of Volume 8:
Spoiler for Editor in Chief★Straight Ahead!:
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Old 2009-08-28, 03:04   Link #60
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Gotta love how he doesn't even consider -that girl- when told to "write a romance story", even though he thinks about her 'once every few days', according to LOVER...

Instead he writes about Miyoko. What a siscon.
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