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Old 2010-02-09, 08:51   Link #341
aegisofrime
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But of course it doesn't matter, since Kyon trusts her most of all. And of course, Kyon is the gatekeeper to God or whatever you call Haruhi, and that makes her the most powerful member of the DITE.
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Old 2010-02-10, 00:53   Link #342
edkedkedk
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
She willingly had restrictions placed upon her powers. Which basically had no visible effect at all.

*e* On the other hand...
Spoiler for later stuff:
She's still as powerful as ever, I see. Also, about

Spoiler for Later stuff:


Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisofrime View Post
But of course it doesn't matter, since Kyon trusts her most of all. And of course, Kyon is the gatekeeper to God or whatever you call Haruhi, and that makes her the most powerful member of the DITE.
To me, Kyon's protection of Yuki doesn't really mean a thing when it comes to the DITE. For goodness sake, they can reconstruct things out of pure data and create false evidences, who's to say they can't take Kyon's protection of Yuki out of the picture?
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Old 2010-02-10, 01:46   Link #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edkedkedk View Post
To me, Kyon's protection of Yuki doesn't really mean a thing when it comes to the DITE. For goodness sake, they can reconstruct things out of pure data and create false evidences, who's to say they can't take Kyon's protection of Yuki out of the picture?
They'd have to go remarkably out of their way to do that, as simply offing Kyon ain't gonna work, for obvious reasons.
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... well... at least it's written the same...
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Old 2010-02-10, 05:54   Link #344
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Spoiler for Later stuff:
Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2010-02-10, 06:53   Link #345
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Spoiler for spoiler:
Spoiler for Editor in Chief:

Make of it what you will.
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Old 2010-02-10, 09:52   Link #346
edkedkedk
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
They'd have to go remarkably out of their way to do that, as simply offing Kyon ain't gonna work, for obvious reasons.
Offing Kyon isn't in their best interests, but reshaping things a little so that Kyon forgets Yuki or isn't as protective of her? Possible.

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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Spoiler for spoiler:
Spoiler for Aliens fight:


Quote:
Originally Posted by worldruined View Post
Spoiler for Editor in Chief:

Make of it what you will.
If Koizumi says it, then it's probably true. He's a smart chap, that one. Then again, how many schools of thought ARE there in the DITE!?
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Old 2010-02-10, 10:04   Link #347
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Originally Posted by edkedkedk View Post
If Koizumi says it, then it's probably true. He's a smart chap, that one. Then again, how many schools of thought ARE there in the DITE!?
I wholeheartedly agree with your assertion. In the Intrigues novel translation, Nagato says that she is a part of the main school of thought while Ryoko was part of the extremists. She knows of four other schools: "the Moderates, the Innovative, the Compromise, and the Thinking parties." There may be more than those 6 that she is not aware of, but those were the ones listed in that novel. As for which school Kimidori-san belongs in, it is not listed to my knowledge.

Novel 9 spoiler
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-02-10, 10:10   Link #348
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Spoiler for vol 7:


It can be assumed that Emiri hold the password. Maybe she and Yuki is at the same level but after the incident, she has been tasked to chaperone Yuki
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Old 2010-02-10, 10:36   Link #349
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Originally Posted by darksassin View Post
Spoiler for vol 7:


It can be assumed that Emiri hold the password. Maybe she and Yuki is at the same level but after the incident, she has been tasked to chaperone Yuki
Now I understand what the line in Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite meant. Interesting...
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Old 2010-02-10, 11:59   Link #350
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She also said that the restriction is placed by her own will, i.e she limiting herself, right? by her own will also mean that she at least has some kind of emotion or guilty feeling for the incident and wanted to act by her own will , not predetermined.

btw edkedk, what line do you mean? some part of Yuki, Muon Madobe Nite or the whole song? Just curios.

btw again, sorry for asking here, but does anyone by chance know the translation of greed's accident? Just asking...
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Old 2010-02-10, 12:33   Link #351
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She also said that the restriction is placed by her own will, i.e she limiting herself, right? by her own will also mean that she at least has some kind of emotion or guilty feeling for the incident and wanted to act by her own will , not predetermined.
She has shown that she was sorry about what she did (but I don't blame her, anyways). You're right, I think she never wants to lose control of herself ever again.

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btw edkedk, what line do you mean? some part of Yuki, Muon Madobe Nite or the whole song? Just curios.
I had to make sure the timing of the publication of Volume 7 was before Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite, in order not to make any assumptions. As it turns out, the first chorus of the song matched with what Yuki said in Volume 7.

Spoiler for Yuki, Muon, Madobe Nite:


The last line especially caught my attention. Imagine what would happen if she caves in and goes Disappearance one more time, this time permanently... That's right, all the rubbish about DITE lording over her will end.
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Old 2010-02-10, 12:45   Link #352
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It's also sorta heartbreaking. She's going to be haunted by the fact that she actually got twisted by data overload to the point where she lost control of her 'reasoning' and original purpose. And she must live in fear (if that's possible for her) that one day she might repeat the actions again. Fear of her own powers and knowing what she can do, so she stopped it. Yet she can't deny her mission, so she needs to collect more and more data and information. The internal turmoil must be... unimaginable.
She does have an unusually sad character arc for such an upbeat series, no denying that.


If Emiri was around before the Disappearance incident, I have to suspect that all the schools have representatives on site. Why Emiri of them has the keys I don't know, she could well have been just another backup for Yuki. Maybe the DITE picked whomever of the available interfaces was the most psychologically stable?
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Old 2010-02-10, 13:15   Link #353
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She does have an unusually sad character arc for such an upbeat series, no denying that.


If Emiri was around before the Disappearance incident, I have to suspect that all the schools have representatives on site. Why Emiri of them has the keys I don't know, she could well have been just another backup for Yuki. Maybe the DITE picked whomever of the available interfaces was the most psychologically stable?
She was around before the Disappearance incident, if I am not mistaken. She plays the role of the computer club president's girlfriend during the cave cricket incident. I assume that she and Yuki cooperate and planned so that the SOS Brigade involved in the incident. I mean , with her abilities, Yuki can easily solve the problem. she also knew from the start what exactly happen.
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Old 2010-02-10, 14:48   Link #354
quigonkenny
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She has shown that she was sorry about what she did (but I don't blame her, anyways). You're right, I think she never wants to lose control of herself ever again.
I'm not so sure.
Spoiler for Volumes 7 and 4 and Snow Mountain Syndrome:

She doesn't want to hurt Kyon again, but she hasn't given up on him yet. She's amazingly complex for what is on paper an emotionless doll. No wonder she's Tanigawa-sensei's favorite character...
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Old 2010-02-10, 15:45   Link #355
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
I'm not so sure.
Spoiler for Volumes 7 and 4 and Snow Mountain Syndrome:

She doesn't want to hurt Kyon again, but she hasn't given up on him yet. She's amazingly complex for what is on paper an emotionless doll. No wonder she's Tanigawa-sensei's favorite character...
She knew that she will "malfunction" and crate another universe 3 years ago.
Spoiler for nothing excactly:


also that the pSM!Yuki denied the request for syncronise by pD!Yuki most probably due that she already experienced that in her past. in other word,PARADOX

Just like kyon when

Spoiler for idk:


maybe because of the denial that pD!Yuki decided that she will put restriction unto herself and consequencely later she didnt want to synchronize when she travel back due to her own will .
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Old 2010-02-15, 10:19   Link #356
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I've been thinking about how similar the Disappearance!Yuki and our normal Mikuru are (especially at the beginning of the series). Yuki does say in Intrigues when Kyon calls her to let her know about Mikuru's absence that she understands how Mikuru could think she wants to be like her, but that she's never thought about it. While it may not be consciously, I do think that the two characters share a lot of characteristics. Both tend to be shy and have one companion they trust. They are portrayed as "weaker" characters in Kyon's narrative especially against someone like Haruhi or Kyon (when he grabs her in the clubroom). I do believe that Yuki is more shy than Mikuru, especially around Kyon, as seen by refusing to look at him when he stares at her compared to Mikuru who's worried about something's wrong with her. I'm still ironing out some details about this, but I thought it would be interesting to hear some other perspectives on it. I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I'd like to read some replies.
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Old 2010-02-15, 13:50   Link #357
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I've been thinking about how similar the Disappearance!Yuki and our normal Mikuru are (especially at the beginning of the series). Yuki does say in Intrigues when Kyon calls her to let her know about Mikuru's absence that she understands how Mikuru could think she wants to be like her, but that she's never thought about it. While it may not be consciously, I do think that the two characters share a lot of characteristics. Both tend to be shy and have one companion they trust. They are portrayed as "weaker" characters in Kyon's narrative especially against someone like Haruhi or Kyon (when he grabs her in the clubroom). I do believe that Yuki is more shy than Mikuru, especially around Kyon, as seen by refusing to look at him when he stares at her compared to Mikuru who's worried about something's wrong with her. I'm still ironing out some details about this, but I thought it would be interesting to hear some other perspectives on it. I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I'd like to read some replies.
I never really thought about it until it was mentioned really recently, too. One thing that I can be sure of is that Yuki noticed Kyon's attraction to Mikuru, and in creating alt!Universe she tries to make it as appealing to Kyon as she can. When she created alt!Universe, her data was corrupted as she longed for emotions. Yet part of the reason for the creation was to try and make Kyon happier. Kyon has been complaining a lot about Haruhi even though he doesn't mean it, and I think Yuki mistook it for him being unhappy about Haruhi.

The subconscious part is very important here. In wanting to please Kyon, she also wants to make herself more human too. That is why I believe she resurrected Ryoko, to try and defend her created world as well as making herself seem even more vulnerable, requiring the aid of someone else to survive. So while she said she doesn't want to be like Mikuru, her subconscious mind of wanting to keep Kyon in alt!Universe prompted her to remake herself in alt!Yuki; timid, shy, cute, strong interests in their craft (books for Yuki, tea for Mikuru), and most importantly, weakness so that the man in Kyon will want to protect her.

(Interlude: I do not think Kyon is a man, however )

So yeah, I do think you have a valid point there. Yuki has to make sure the world was appealing enough for Kyon to want to stay, so she accounted for every single detail, except for one. Remember, Kyon hesitated a lot in pressing the 'ENTER' button. But in the end, the one thing that led Kyon to want to return to the 'original' world, which is also the thing Yuki missed out, is that Kyon has grown to care for each and everyone of the SOS Brigade. That love and care cannot be replicated.

Good job, Koizu- I mean, ultimatemegax.
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:10   Link #358
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Originally Posted by edkedkedk View Post
I never really thought about it until it was mentioned really recently, too. One thing that I can be sure of is that Yuki noticed Kyon's attraction to Mikuru, and in creating alt!Universe she tries to make it as appealing to Kyon as she can. When she created alt!Universe, her data was corrupted as she longed for emotions. Yet part of the reason for the creation was to try and make Kyon happier. Kyon has been complaining a lot about Haruhi even though he doesn't mean it, and I think Yuki mistook it for him being unhappy about Haruhi.

The subconscious part is very important here. In wanting to please Kyon, she also wants to make herself more human too. That is why I believe she resurrected Ryoko, to try and defend her created world as well as making herself seem even more vulnerable, requiring the aid of someone else to survive. So while she said she doesn't want to be like Mikuru, her subconscious mind of wanting to keep Kyon in alt!Universe prompted her to remake herself in alt!Yuki; timid, shy, cute, strong interests in their craft (books for Yuki, tea for Mikuru), and most importantly, weakness so that the man in Kyon will want to protect her.

(Interlude: I do not think Kyon is a man, however )

So yeah, I do think you have a valid point there. Yuki has to make sure the world was appealing enough for Kyon to want to stay, so she accounted for every single detail, except for one. Remember, Kyon hesitated a lot in pressing the 'ENTER' button. But in the end, the one thing that led Kyon to want to return to the 'original' world, which is also the thing Yuki missed out, is that Kyon has grown to care for each and everyone of the SOS Brigade. That love and care cannot be replicated.

Good job, Koizu- I mean, ultimatemegax.
I think a lot of the posters here are influencing my opinions on Kyon to the point where I don't like him as much as I used to. I said in my post today that Kyon suffers from "main male character amnesia" where he doesn't realize what his actions do to the females around him. I do think that he went back to the old world in part because he feared the changes and in part because he missed his Haruhi, but that's for another thread.

After it was mentioned in another thread why someone thought Yuki resurrected Ryoko and why she didn't stop Ryoko from attacking. She mentions in the novels (I'll edit in the specific volume and chapter when I have free access to look) that she had to let things happen the way they did otherwise unforeseen effects could have happened. I don't think Yuki revived Ryoko because of some plot to save Kyon from being attacked again. Yuki tapped into Haruhi's new world power and altered the world from 365 days before December 18th. During that time, Ryoko was still alive and could have been in active mode thereby causing problems if she suddenly disappeared during the middle of the month for no apparent reason. In addition, Ryoko was always Yuki's backup, which I believe to be helping her in her goals, no matter what. That would explain the cooking and the protection when Kyon begins to shoot her.

The only plothole that I can find in Disappearance deals with some dialogue. It's mentioned by Kunikida or Taniguchi that Kyounen has always been a co-ed school, but Yuki's power only extended back one year. I think it was just a miswrite or mistranslation, but it's something that's bothered me. In less than 48 hours, I'll have my final post on Yuki up on Cartoon Leap, which has my full thoughts on the Disappearance world since it's made by Yuki. Thank you for your reply, it's helped me clarify a few of my thoughts.
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Old 2010-02-15, 14:32   Link #359
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I think a lot of the posters here are influencing my opinions on Kyon to the point where I don't like him as much as I used to.
In my experience, people tend to like Kyon less if they also sympathize with Yuki, and vice versa. He's probably less kind to her than the other brigade members, even after Vol. 4...

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The only plothole that I can find in Disappearance deals with some dialogue. It's mentioned by Kunikida or Taniguchi that Kyounen has always been a co-ed school, but Yuki's power only extended back one year.
This isn't a plothole... that's the thing: Haruhi's powers have little no to internal consistency, since they break all laws of physics.
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Old 2010-02-15, 17:19   Link #360
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I never really thought about it until it was mentioned really recently, too. One thing that I can be sure of is that Yuki noticed Kyon's attraction to Mikuru, and in creating alt!Universe she tries to make it as appealing to Kyon as she can. When she created alt!Universe, her data was corrupted as she longed for emotions. Yet part of the reason for the creation was to try and make Kyon happier. Kyon has been complaining a lot about Haruhi even though he doesn't mean it, and I think Yuki mistook it for him being unhappy about Haruhi.
Oh, he means it all right. Not as much as he makes it seem (that's one of the points of Disappearance), but he does have problems with Haruhi, almost more in volume than in nature, aside from her odd sociopathic Kick the Dog moments here and there. She's largely rectified the situation herself by dialing it down from 11, but she still has her lapses now and again. I'm willing to bet that's why Tanigawa gradually introduced the Anti-dan to take part of Haruhi's role in the plot, since Haruhi has gradually been moving from antagonist to McGuffin.

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(Interlude: I do not think Kyon is a man, however )
I beg to differ. As much as Kyon may bitch and moan and try to get out of dealing with things, when it gets down to it, he's usually right there at the end resolving the issue at hand. Whether it's killing Haruhi's latest collateral damage-creating buzz, or figuring out what to get Yuki or Itsuki to do to solve the problem (since they rarely act on their own unless it's to stage a problem), or running out into the street to save a little kid and by extension the existence of Mikuru, or changing/ensuring history, or taking a knife in the gut, he's earned his keep. No doubt. The fact that he has flaws only makes him a more interesting character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edkedkedk View Post
So yeah, I do think you have a valid point there. Yuki has to make sure the world was appealing enough for Kyon to want to stay, so she accounted for every single detail, except for one. Remember, Kyon hesitated a lot in pressing the 'ENTER' button. But in the end, the one thing that led Kyon to want to return to the 'original' world, which is also the thing Yuki missed out, is that Kyon has grown to care for each and everyone of the SOS Brigade. That love and care cannot be replicated.
I think if Yuki had changed certain things less, primarily herself, he might have considered staying. It wasn't just the SOS-dan members he missed, because he ended up gathering them all up anyway. what he missed were his SOS-dan members, the moe moe Mikuru, the tacit alien bookworm Yuki, and even the force of nature Haruhi. Itsuki he probably liked better as the Yukiverse version... ^_^

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Originally Posted by ultimatemegax View Post
I think a lot of the posters here are influencing my opinions on Kyon to the point where I don't like him as much as I used to. I said in my post today that Kyon suffers from "main male character amnesia" where he doesn't realize what his actions do to the females around him. I do think that he went back to the old world in part because he feared the changes and in part because he missed his Haruhi, but that's for another thread.
Don't let them get you down on the man. He's just a flawed person like the rest of us (his entire point of being). They're just all upset because he's his own primary cause of shipping failure... ^_^

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After it was mentioned in another thread why someone thought Yuki resurrected Ryoko and why she didn't stop Ryoko from attacking. She mentions in the novels (I'll edit in the specific volume and chapter when I have free access to look) that she had to let things happen the way they did otherwise unforeseen effects could have happened. I don't think Yuki revived Ryoko because of some plot to save Kyon from being attacked again. Yuki tapped into Haruhi's new world power and altered the world from 365 days before December 18th. During that time, Ryoko was still alive and could have been in active mode thereby causing problems if she suddenly disappeared during the middle of the month for no apparent reason. In addition, Ryoko was always Yuki's backup, which I believe to be helping her in her goals, no matter what. That would explain the cooking and the protection when Kyon begins to shoot her.

The only plothole that I can find in Disappearance deals with some dialogue. It's mentioned by Kunikida or Taniguchi that Kyounen has always been a co-ed school, but Yuki's power only extended back one year. I think it was just a miswrite or mistranslation, but it's something that's bothered me. In less than 48 hours, I'll have my final post on Yuki up on Cartoon Leap, which has my full thoughts on the Disappearance world since it's made by Yuki. Thank you for your reply, it's helped me clarify a few of my thoughts.
Think about the way existence must seem for Yuki. You are aware of things on a level that is not even conceivable to the human mind. You are constantly in contact with a mind-bogglingly LARGE existence, only it's not so much "in contact with" as on several levels you are it. Now you're about to drop your own considerable existence into the mind of a real human. I'd say it's the equivalent of cutting away your cerebrum, crawling into a thimble, and welding it shut behind you, but that doesn't begin to describe it. The idea of that has to absolutely terrify her, only to be topped by the realization that she can't stop herself from doing it. Wouldn't you want a familiar face around, one who at least on some level can relate to what you're going through?

And she couldn't stop Ryoko any more than Mikuru(small) would have been able to. Tell me that watching that wasn't the icing on her horror cake...

I don't remember that line about Koyouen. I remember a line about the school, but can't remember if they were saying it became co-ed recently or had always been, but there's no reason that memory changes couldn't be part of the Yukification of the world. May not be able to change the fact that 366 days ago it was an all-girls school, but you can certainly change everyone's memories from 365 days ago of it ever having been an all-girls school.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
In my experience, people tend to like Kyon less if they also sympathize with Yuki, and vice versa. He's probably less kind to her than the other brigade members, even after Vol. 4...
Wow. What is with all the Kyon hate? That's a massive Flanderization based on one incident in Volume 7 where he was a little too busy saving the world (as usual) to realize that Yuki might have taken an invitation to the library a little more seriously than he did. Granted, it took Mikuru(small) to point it out (obvious much?), but it's quite an exception.
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