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Old 2009-10-26, 17:15   Link #281
Ricky Controversy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmyElizzabeth View Post
I wouldn't thhink that Taniguchi would let personality get in the way of looks..
That's a common misconception. Taniguchi cares about personality, even if it's only on a rather superficial level. As we're given to understand, he sees female personalities as either 'troublesome' or not, which really boils down to 'requiring effort' and not. In the case of Haruhi, she's absolutely beautiful, but she'd also be quite the handful. He's looking for a beautiful girl with a placid personality and simple wants so that he doesn't have to try hard, she essentially would serve as a trophy.
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Old 2009-10-26, 19:13   Link #282
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So basically... his attitude towards finding a girl is about like Kyon's attitude towards... well, life.
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... that's... not a doughnut...
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Old 2009-10-26, 19:20   Link #283
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...now that you put it that way, I must agree o_o
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Old 2009-10-26, 21:16   Link #284
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
So basically... his attitude towards finding a girl is about like Kyon's attitude towards... well, life.
Which leads into my feelings about Taniguchi and Kunikida as a duo: they serve as less intentionally misleading mirrors of Kyon's dual-nature. Taniguchi represents assertiveness and also superficiality, while Kunikida represents nobler qualities, but also meekness.

Kyon gets frustrated with Taniguchi because he reflects back to him the things he dislikes most about himself, while Kunikida seems to have a more mature, focused head on his shoulders...but has even less of a presence than Taniguchi.
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Old 2009-10-26, 22:03   Link #285
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The reason Taniguchi gave Ryoko an AA+ was, that he thought she's perfect in everything including personality.

You know, In the first few chapters Tanigawa tried to give us the impression that she's Mary Sue who's loved by everyone.
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:39   Link #286
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You're thinking of the wrong character type. Prior to her little attempted stabfest, Asakura was set up as a Yamato Nadeshiko.
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... that's... not a doughnut...
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:44   Link #287
Ricky Controversy
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If only she'd been using a different kind of blade and using it for Kyon, instead of on him, she could have persisted! But no. She is a gusadere.
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Old 2009-10-26, 23:45   Link #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
You're thinking of the wrong character type. Prior to her little attempted stabfest, Asakura was set up as a Yamato Nadeshiko.
... That doesn't necessarily contradict his point. In other words, your observation, while correct, is compatible with his.

From watching a lot of anime, I get the distinct impression that the Yamato Nadeshiko type is someone who's perfect (as a girlfriend/wife) and beloved by everyone - at least that this is how many Japanese anime fans feel.
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Old 2009-10-27, 03:33   Link #289
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大和撫子 = [やまとなでしこ, yamatonadeshiko] (n) woman who displays the feminine virtues of old Japan, a pink (the flower)

Well, anyway, my point is, at the beginning of the story, she was portrayed as a high school girl, who is perfect in every way, good at everything and loved by everyone.
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Old 2009-10-27, 16:37   Link #290
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And then tried to kill Kyon
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Old 2009-10-27, 17:07   Link #291
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So... Perfect in every way.
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... that's... not a doughnut...
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Old 2009-10-27, 17:16   Link #292
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...Sure.
Let's just go with that..
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Old 2009-10-28, 01:58   Link #293
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Speaking of Ryoko's true nature, Tanigawa intended to lure the readers into this trap to the last minute.

I mean, the set up for the stabbing scene is more or less like a cliché high school love confession.
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Old 2009-10-28, 02:04   Link #294
Ricky Controversy
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Originally Posted by freakonboard View Post
Speaking of Ryoko's true nature, Tanigawa intended to lure the readers into this trap to the last minute.

I mean, the set up for the stabbing scene is more or less like a cliché high school love confession.
And depending on one's personal experiences, the attempted stabbing and subsequent digital alien robot goddess battle may in fact be preferable to a High School love confession.
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Old 2009-10-28, 02:57   Link #295
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Originally Posted by freakonboard View Post
Speaking of Ryoko's true nature, Tanigawa intended to lure the readers into this trap to the last minute.

I mean, the set up for the stabbing scene is more or less like a cliché high school love confession.
Asakura using magic powers and trying to kill Kyon to obtain infomation for some radical entity is like a cliche high school love confession.

What the hell have you been watching dude?
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Old 2009-10-28, 02:59   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kogetsu Shirogane View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by freakonboard View Post
You know, In the first few chapters Tanigawa tried to give us the impression that she's Mary Sue who's loved by everyone.
You're thinking of the wrong character type. Prior to her little attempted stabfest, Asakura was set up as a Yamato Nadeshiko.
... That doesn't necessarily contradict his point. In other words, your observation, while correct, is compatible with his.

From watching a lot of anime, I get the distinct impression that the Yamato Nadeshiko type is someone who's perfect (as a girlfriend/wife) and beloved by everyone - at least that this is how many Japanese anime fans feel.
While I agree that a Mary Sue can be a yamato nadeshiko, I believe Kogetsu was implying that Ryoko is not a Mary Sue. For one thing, if there's anything that identifies a Mary Sue more than even the aura of "better than thou", it's some level of success, and let's face it, Ryoko was not successful. I also balk at calling her a yamato nadeshiko. She's an axe-crazy girl with psycho weapon, after all,
Spoiler for Volume 4:
and that's pretty much mutually exclusive with being a YN...

The Haruhi franchise is unique in that it is able to not only get away with two Mary Sue-ish characters (Tsuruya and to a lesser extent Kyon, which tells you how broad a definition "Mary Sue" can cover), but they're possibly the two most universally loved characters.

Now Ryoko in "Disappearance of Yuki Nagato" is a different story. While she still isn't quite a YN (but for different reasons) she is quite the Mary Sue (oddly without any author avatar feeling)...

I now eagerly anticipate the flames of those who decry me for calling Tsuruya and Kyon Mary Sues (okay, a Mary Sue and a Marty Stu) before they think about it... ^_^
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Old 2009-10-28, 03:14   Link #297
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While Tsuruya qualifies in some ways, she has absolutely no plot relevance and, although she steals every scene she's in, she never seems to be intrusive. One of the traits of a Mary Sue is that they steal plot relevance from everyone else. Tsuruya is not a Mary Sue.

...And one of the other traits of a Mary Sue is that they are flawless. Kyon? Flawless?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

The only thing really Sue-like about him is that he's clearly an avatar for Tanigawa, except less self-deprecating. And that alone doesn't make him a Sue...

You want a Mary Sue? Check out post-Disappearance Nagato.

Hijacks the plot? Oh yes. Entirely too much.
Flawless? Aside from her emo fallout... pretty much, yeah.
Beloved by everyone? Haruhi should not be this overly protective of anyone. WHERE did that come from?
Poorly-written and developed? Given that her only point seems to be to serve Tanigawa's Nagato-fetish, she's already really finished her development at that point, and she really doesn't DO anything other than serve as the center of Kyon's attention up until Vol. 7... yeah.

Nagato after her own development novel is one of the biggest Mary Sues I've ever seen, and that's why I don't like her at all.
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Old 2009-10-28, 05:44   Link #298
freakonboard
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Originally Posted by Otaku Emperor View Post
Asakura using magic powers and trying to kill Kyon to obtain infomation for some radical entity is like a cliche high school love confession.

What the hell have you been watching dude?
I think you completely missed my point, bro.

What I did mean was, the way the author lured the readers before he created a twist by using the event you mentioned.

If you're familiar with Japanese high school romance anime/manga/game/drama/movie/novel/etc. , you should know what I'm trying to say here.

Umm... you know how cliché it is when a girl sent a letter to a boy to meet after school.
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Old 2009-10-28, 07:39   Link #299
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You want a Mary Sue? Check out post-Disappearance Nagato.

Hijacks the plot? Oh yes. Entirely too much.
Flawless? Aside from her emo fallout... pretty much, yeah.
Beloved by everyone? Haruhi should not be this overly protective of anyone. WHERE did that come from?
You fiend! How you dare speak bad of Yuki in a way I can not totaly disagree!?

Hmmm, to be fair, Haruhi never needed to be over protective to anyone before. I believe she would act similarly if Mikuru was in need. Also, if I am not mistaken, the protectiveness is as early as Vol.5.

Ah, and Yuki don't hijacks the plot, this only occur in Wondering Shadow and Snow Mountain. Also, in Editor in Chief the story seemed to be focused on her at first, and the it was hijacked by everyone else... However, as she did receive way more atention then Mikuru, and even Haruhi, you point still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Poorly-written and developed? Given that her only point seems to be to serve Tanigawa's Nagato-fetish, she's already really finished her development at that point, and she really doesn't DO anything other than serve as the center of Kyon's attention up until Vol. 7... yeah.
I disagree with you here. Yeah, her development kinda stoped at Book 5 (in my opinion, Day of Sagitarius says a lot of her that wasn't told in Vol.4), however te storys that came shortly after Disappearance (Snow Mountain and Charmed) are important to show how close she and Kyon are now, stabilishing it as the new Status Quo. So, yeah, she don't do nothing but serve as the center of Kyon's attention, but this is just to his protectiveness as a fact. I would say this is better then KyoAni version of Kannon, where all girls are forgoten after their arcs.

I could agree she didn't need the attention she received at Vol. 8, but I like her so this don't bother me. Also, in Edito in Chief everyone receive a bit of development (exept for Mikuru), and the main focus of Wondering Shadow was Haruhi, Yuki importance being not bigger then in Boredom(story) and Mystérique Sign

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Nagato after her own development novel is one of the biggest Mary Sues I've ever seen, and that's why I don't like her at all.
You cleary didn't read enough fanfics. Or read the last Harry Poter book. Btw, I never realized you didn't like her, is that why you are not good writing her?

PP:
Oh, yeah, back to the topic. (sorry for that) I believe Ryouko is neither a Yamado Nadeshiko nor a Mary Sue. However, I believe this is not the point freakonboard and Kogetsu tryed to made at first.

Sure, after the "trying to kill Kyon" thing she is neither, however, Taniguchi did, in my opinion, tryed to stabilish her as a Mary Sue for Kyon/us, portrating her as flawless. Sure, she never had some traids of a true MS, like being the most impornat character in the cast. However, she was, indeed, meant to appear flawless and loved by everyone in the class.
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Old 2009-10-28, 07:42   Link #300
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While I agree that a Mary Sue can be a yamato nadeshiko, I believe Kogetsu was implying that Ryoko is not a Mary Sue. For one thing, if there's anything that identifies a Mary Sue more than even the aura of "better than thou", it's some level of success, and let's face it, Ryoko was not successful.
After Ryoko went all unsuccessful villain, the Mary Sue image was completely destroyed for her, yes. Prior to that, Ryoko came off as a... potential Mary Sue to me.

But yeah, Ryoko clearly never panned out as a Mary Sue. Tanigawa may have wanted the readers to take her that way prior to Ryoko's attempt to take Kyon's life (i.e. build Ryoko up as this seemingly perfect girl so that when she tries to kill Kyon, it become a great plot twist for the readers - it's really good writing on his part that adds a lot of drama )


Quote:


The Haruhi franchise is unique in that it is able to not only get away with two Mary Sue-ish characters (Tsuruya and to a lesser extent Kyon, which tells you how broad a definition "Mary Sue" can cover), but they're possibly the two most universally loved characters.
On another board, I wrote up six criteria that I use to judge if a character is a Mary Sue or not (aside from the self-insertion factor that no longer seems to be a prerequisite to being a Mary Sue). If a character hits 4 or more of the six, I'm inclined to consider him or her a Mary Sue. I actually ran Haruhi through these six a long time ago, and determined by it that she is a Mary Sue (I did this, in part, to show that a character can be both a Mary Sue and popular). So, let's see what happens when I run Haruhi, and Tsuruya and Kyon through it...


Copying and pasting, here are the six criteria that I came up with...


1. Unbelievably good won-lost record (for protagonists: Never Lose or never lose fairly; for antagonists: Rarely lose) ... Yes to Haruhi, yes to Tsuruya, yes to Kyon (except when he goes against Haruhi - i.e. Cicada hunting competition). This is where Haruhi, and the entire SOS Brigade, is the most Sue-ish. They never lose. Period.


2. Not a signal other character present is shown to be superior to the Sue in any discernible or significant area (for a protagonist: amongst all other protagonists; for an antagonist: amongst all other characters). Probably one of the worse offenders of this was Silver Age Superman, with his super-everything power (super-intelligence putting it over the top, I felt). Simply put, the Sue is the best at everything (with the possible exception of a villainous enemy). Note: A good guard against a Sue is to have somebody with her/him that is brainier than him/her that can provide intellectual solutions that the Sue doesn't think of. - Hhhmmm... Kind of hard for this to apply to three different characters from the same anime. I tend to feel that this is true for Haruhi, since she excels at almost everything she puts her hand to (movie making being the sole exception it seems ). She has the looks, the marks, the athleticism, etc... To some degree, I guess you could say that this could apply to both Haruhi and Tsuruya as they're not in the same class.
Ok, I'll say yes to Haruhi, yes to Tsuruya, no to Kyon.


3. Is beloved by other characters beyond what his/her accomplishments and personality/natural appeal would call for - this is especially true if people even morally aligned against him or her feels this way (i.e. a main protagonist that has antagonists pining for him/her romantically). - No to Haruhi, no to Tsuruya, yes to Kyon arguably (when it comes to women at least, lol).


4. Is or has the solution to almost every problem (protagonists)... or is the mastermind behind almost every problem (antagonists)... or both. - Yes to Haruhi and to Kyon, each in their own way; no to Tsuruya



5. Simply has the perfect, or almost perfect, life. This alone can be a big factor... either way. For example, if a character has a life that s/he hates, then that certainly doesn't make the character feel like a pet character to me. - Yes to Tsuruya, for obvious reasons. As for Haruhi and Kyon... I don't know. Haruhi seems consistently pretty upbeat and cheerful post-Melancholy... Kyon's situation is an enviable one in many ways, but also has its drawbacks. I'll say yes to Tsuruya, no to Haruhi, and no to Kyon, though.


6. This last one is a bit more of my own personal intuitive sense after watching anime (so if people disagree, I understand) - a seemingly normal human character that either eventually achieves a Godhood of sorts, or already unknowingly has a Godhood of sorts. - Yes to Haruhi, no to Kyon, no to Tsuruya

Final Scores: Haruhi - 4, Kyon - 3, Tsuruya - 3

3 out of 6 is enough to set off Mary Sue "red flags" for me - so yeah, Kyon and Tsuruya are arguably Mary Sues. I don't dispute that. Kyon also has a bit of the self-insertion thing going on, which arguably adds a point to him, perhaps moving him up to 4.


Haruhi is a Mary Sue, imo.

Three borderline Mary Sues all in the same anime as part of a fairly small cast... Tanigawa must be quite the idealist.


Quote:

I now eagerly anticipate the flames of those who decry me for calling Tsuruya and Kyon Mary Sues (okay, a Mary Sue and a Marty Stu) before they think about it... ^_^
I definitely can see your reasoning here.

If we take a stricter approach where every Mary Sue characteristic has to be struck, then Kaisos is right. But if it's a case where a majority of the Mary Sue characteristics is enough...
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