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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 21 16.54%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 48 37.80%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 37 29.13%
7 out of 10 : Good 13 10.24%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 3.94%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.57%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.79%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-08-28, 20:29   Link #141
Christen
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I definitely appreciated Higu S1 before I came across the existence of the novels despite it's QUALITY.

There are still around 16 episodes left for the series. I'm still giving DEEN a chance until the very end to prove they can handle Umineko. They proved it once on the 5th episode.
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Old 2009-08-29, 01:11   Link #142
Chrono Helix
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I think there's one more thing Battler could have asked Beatrice.

Do all the remaining 4 servants have their master keys with them?
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Old 2009-08-29, 01:18   Link #143
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Isn't it rather ridiclous to think that if Battler proves it wasn't magic everyone is revived? I mean how does it happen.. magic doesn't exist.. and if magic didn't kill them.. than they were killed by human means. Such a hollow victory it would be... I think a lot of game players still don't get this... if he wins he loses since he's dead.. this situation reminds me of what happens in VN 4 too someone...
He's transported to another alt universe where the crime hasn't been committed yet and stops it from happening. So while in his universe, they died. An alternate universe family lives on due to his intervention. Basically, he goes back to the beginning of the main branch that includes his smaller universe branch and saves the other branch like in Noein.

Explained by physics.

And since we never saw his dead body, Meta-Battler is in a neutral state. He is neither alive nor dead imo. However, he is being treated as if he is alive by Beatrice who validates his existence for now.
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Old 2009-08-29, 02:00   Link #144
Arbane the Terrible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
And since we never saw his dead body, Meta-Battler is in a neutral state. He is neither alive nor dead imo. However, he is being treated as if he is alive by Beatrice who validates his existence for now.
Schoedinger's Detective?

And yeah, I'd say he's as alive as Beatrice is...whatever THAT means.
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Old 2009-08-29, 02:12   Link #145
maya-nee
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
And since we never saw his dead body, Meta-Battler is in a neutral state. He is neither alive nor dead imo. However, he is being treated as if he is alive by Beatrice who validates his existence for now.
Maybe in reality, he's in coma and Beatrice is his nurse or maybe a real lover and the game is maybe just his dream??
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Old 2009-08-29, 02:26   Link #146
orion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbane the Terrible View Post
Schoedinger's Detective?

And yeah, I'd say he's as alive as Beatrice is...whatever THAT means.
Meow.

Anyways so does this mean that Shannon is officially a wolf?

It was 3-2 when Shannon was outside of the room and the others were alive. Shannon walks in with the web. It became 4-2 and Nanjo and Kumasawa lost their heads. If Shannon was a sheep, then it would be 3-3 and Nanjo and Kumasawa would be alive.

Did you see how far she jumped?
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Old 2009-08-29, 05:59   Link #147
Klashikari
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There is one thing: since when the wolf and sheep theory is actually true?
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Old 2009-08-29, 06:53   Link #148
Antera Caramichael
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I agree. Kanon is the perfect example: A surprise attack and HOP! 3 of 5 left.
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Old 2009-08-29, 06:55   Link #149
Jan-Poo
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actually according to the riddle the sheep die as soon as the wolves are more than them. what was the point of waiting?

the riddle is as follow: you have 2 sheep and 2 wolves on one side of a river. there is a boat to cross the river that can only contain two animals. you need to bring all the animals to the other side, but if there's more wolves than sheep, the wolves eat them. and of course the boat cannot move if it's empty. staying on the boat isn't safe, once the boat reaches a shore it becomes connected to it and if there are two or more wolves the sheep dies.

it is actually not that difficult of a riddle.
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Old 2009-08-29, 07:23   Link #150
Unknown Soldier
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No, it's really not, just put both wolves on the boat, bring them over, unload 1 wolf, go back, put 2 sheep on the boat, bring them over, unload 1 sheep, go back, put the last wolf on, and bring it over. You win.
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Old 2009-08-29, 09:32   Link #151
maximilianjenus
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It does not matter, even if Rosa were the only sheep she has a gun so she is like a supersheep.
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Old 2009-08-29, 11:58   Link #152
Sute443
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrono Helix View Post
I think there's one more thing Battler could have asked Beatrice.

Do all the remaining 4 servants have their master keys with them?
Now that is an excellent question. Of course, you'd think that a servant notice a missing master key, so this theory would support a servant being in collusion with the killer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Anyways so does this mean that Shannon is officially a wolf?

It was 3-2 when Shannon was outside of the room and the others were alive. Shannon walks in with the web. It became 4-2 and Nanjo and Kumasawa lost their heads. If Shannon was a sheep, then it would be 3-3 and Nanjo and Kumasawa would be alive.
There is no indication that the wolf and sheep puzzle is an accurate portrayal of the situation (I would say it is not; reference: the chapel murders). Let's look at the list of characters for that scene anyways: Genji, Gohda, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon.

Your speculation puts Genji, Gohda, Shannon, and Kanon as wolves and Nanjo and Kumasawa as sheep, correct? The Red Truth says that Kanon was killed. If the person who came to the back door really was Kanon, then that person can't reasonably be counted as a wolf. If Kanon did somehow actually show up then it would be far more likely for him to be a sheep. Then it would be 3-3 as soon as Kanon showed up and 2-3 while Shannon was out of the room. I can't explain why Nanjo and Kumasawa would survive until Kanon showed up, but there's no problem with them surviving after he showed up.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:27   Link #153
orion
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Now that is an excellent question. Of course, you'd think that a servant notice a missing master key, so this theory would support a servant being in collusion with the killer.



There is no indication that the wolf and sheep puzzle is an accurate portrayal of the situation (I would say it is not; reference: the chapel murders). Let's look at the list of characters for that scene anyways: Genji, Gohda, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Shannon, and Kanon.

Your speculation puts Genji, Gohda, Shannon, and Kanon as wolves and Nanjo and Kumasawa as sheep, correct? The Red Truth says that Kanon was killed. If the person who came to the back door really was Kanon, then that person can't reasonably be counted as a wolf. If Kanon did somehow actually show up then it would be far more likely for him to be a sheep. Then it would be 3-3 as soon as Kanon showed up and 2-3 while Shannon was out of the room. I can't explain why Nanjo and Kumasawa would survive until Kanon showed up, but there's no problem with them surviving after he showed up.
Kanon has 2 personalities, sheep and wolf. Genji, Gohda and Shannon are full wolves. Nanjo and Kumasawa are sheep. Kanon 1 (sheep) fell thru the back door. Kanon 2 (wolf) woke up and fingered his wound and preceded to attempt to kill the others. When Kanon 2 stood up, the ratio would have been 4 wolves to 2 sheep. Shannon being a wolf could exit and get the spider web safely knowing that the 2 sheep would be slaughtered either way.

So with this view, we get Shannon as a wolf imo.

With the chapel murders, if they were individually poisoned before hand and mutilated later, then you still get the wolf and sheep scenario. The truth for that was that alive or dead they entered thru the door IIRC.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:39   Link #154
Jan-Poo
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But why would Shannon go get the spider web if she was a wolf? In other words if she and Kanon were on the same side there was no reason for Shannon to leave the room.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:40   Link #155
maximilianjenus
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That's why the wolf and sheep scenario is not that accurate, a sheep witha gun is stronger thana wolf, and a wofl with a gun can overpower 3 sheeps easily.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:46   Link #156
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the whole wolf and sheep puzzle is just a ridiculous description of a non related situation.
Rosa's reasoning is flawed because it is "as if" the culprit(s) will ALWAYS act under such circumstances.

And from what kind of basis she can do that? This is ridiculous considering that means: she can hereby guarantee the culprit won't attack unless they are in superior in term of number which doesn't take account specific circumstances (such like surprise attack, ambush etc).
Furthermore, why would they automatically take the opportunity to do that?

From all angles, it is ridiculous to claim such kind of situation, unless you have 100% foolproof evidence that the culprit will definitely do as planned as a dumb riddle.

We know from Episode 1 that the culprit didn't have trouble to take out 6 persons in the dining room. Because of Rosa's claim, they should have been at least 7 for this deed, which doesn't make any sense in term of possible culprits for Episode 1.
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Old 2009-08-29, 12:49   Link #157
MarthX
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Thinking the culprit HAS to be multiple people because 6 were killed in the first twilight is fundamentally flawed. If they were lured there, poisoned and had their stomachs cut open afterward. It's perfectly possible for a single person to accomplish.
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Old 2009-08-29, 13:04   Link #158
maximilianjenus
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The wolf and sheep puzzle aplyes to umineko (and I guess rosa's reasoning) in the saem way as it does in real life; as long as there is a wolf at least one sheep will get killed.
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Old 2009-08-29, 15:33   Link #159
orion
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Originally Posted by MarthX View Post
Thinking the culprit HAS to be multiple people because 6 were killed in the first twilight is fundamentally flawed. If they were lured there, poisoned and had their stomachs cut open afterward. It's perfectly possible for a single person to accomplish.
Or killed and gutted in another area and simply transported there for positioning and stuffing.
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Old 2009-08-29, 17:00   Link #160
miroku2192
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Uh you got it wrong. The real riddle is with 3 sheep and 3 wolves. It's really not that much harder, but requires a few more steps. At least that was the riddle our teacher gave us wayyyyyyyyyy back in 6th grade. I was the first to get it . I was so proud of myself ;P
if you want i can explain it to you, it took me like 5 seconds to figure it out again
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