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Old 2009-09-04, 01:29   Link #241
Shiek927
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Saying that Riful can't survive what happened last chapter, well, it is not taking into consideration the huge power store an Abyssal One has.
Not necessarily; I did expect her to be alright in this chapter, and by that I mean still alive, but I expected her to be crippled and extremely wounded. Basically, a state similar to Dauf right now.

A fair theory when she was attacked by someone of Raciella's magnitude....numerously.

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Old 2009-09-04, 01:30   Link #242
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Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta View Post
She might be able to recover if someone was able to remove the diglett somehow. JB did raise a good point that much wasn't shown to us, like Riful regenerating. Riful did take heavy damage, had to revert to human form, and then couldn't regenerate. If Beth is to survive it would be like that. Saying that Riful can't survive what happened last chapter, well, it is not taking into consideration the huge power store an Abyssal One has. I wish we would've seen more. There is so much greatness to this chapter though that maybe yagi had the choice of making an action packed chapter, or making a filler chapter before an action packed one. Some of us don't like fillers.
these rods are supposed to absorb yoki though. I can't imagine Beth would have large enough reserves to both heal such a major wound and feed a care bear at the same time.

Spoiler for care bear reference:
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:33   Link #243
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these rods are supposed to absorb yoki though. I can't imagine Beth would have large enough reserves to both heal such a major wound and feed a care bear at the same time.
Not to mention summoning up enough strength to push herself off the wall and remove the rod in her body, especially with that thing syphoning her every moment.
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:39   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta View Post
She might be able to recover if someone was able to remove the diglett somehow. JB did raise a good point that much wasn't shown to us, like Riful regenerating. Riful did take heavy damage, had to revert to human form, and then couldn't regenerate. If Beth is to survive it would be like that. Saying that Riful can't survive what happened last chapter, well, it is not taking into consideration the huge power store an Abyssal One has. I wish we would've seen more. There is so much greatness to this chapter though that maybe yagi had the choice of making an action packed chapter, or making a filler chapter before an action packed one. Some of us don't like fillers.
I doubt Beth can be healed/regenerate, since she'd have to cure the infection too or that will kill her. Thus making the regeneration pointless. It not like she can cut her body in half and regrow it... she is an offensive fighter after all. Plus Cynthia is likely too weak to help her...

Beth is death, but she just hasn't realized it yet, IMHO. I mean she could survive (if Yagi so chooses) but without a more formed speculation to base this speculation on, I'm not willing to support this idea just yet.

The real questions to me are:
What state will Alicia be in? Will she revert back to AO when her sister dies? and if so what will she do? Will she stay human form? and if so will she still try to kill Riful? or morn her sister? seek revenge for her sister? Will she become partially awakened? Will Clare sence Alicia's (and maybe Beth's) plight and come to save them, because of Raphaela's memories influencing her? Does Riful have any way to gain control of Alicia in her weakened state? Can Clare get to her/them in time and if so does that endanger Helen/Deneve? ect...
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:39   Link #245
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Hey guys I wrote a commentary on this epic issue as usual every month,


http://kerubinist.blogspot.com/2009/09/claymore-95.html


hope it raises more interesting discussions! I totally love how Yagi always leaves us hanging at the end of every chapter haha, can't wait to see what becomes of Beth next month. It would really suck if she just dies like that after their short debut, I suspect Miria and team or somebody else will come and save Beth. And hopefully Beth still maintains the link with her sister and all is not lost.
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:41   Link #246
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[QUOTE=Ryus;2624069]Another Pokemon joke... So where is this intelligent conversation you wanted to start? [quote]

Well, I just can't cannot have a sense of humor, even if it maybe lame at times. When have you ever seen me not joke on here? That is just who I am

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Anyways I kept saying I want to discuss the Alicia/Beth angle more but everyone kept posting such stupid theories about it I knew there was no point. Everyone was just posting what they wanted and not theory and speculation... so why debate when no one else was willing to listen

I'm probably going to wait to start that line of discussion until I've read a Jap>English translation... since I hate getting corrected because I'm forming my argument around a bad translation, and one less language should minimize the translation errors.
I don't quite remember you saying what exactly you wanted to discuss about the Alicia and Beth angle. But what exactly was a stupid theory? I can kind of see both sides of the Beth was the one who saved Riful argument. I don't quite understand what makes either side stupid though. I still favor that Beth saved Riful, because Alicia wiped out everyone except Riful.

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Not necessarily; I did expect her to be alright in this chapter, and by that I mean still alive, but I expected her to be crippled and extremely wounded. Basically, a state similar to Dauf right now.
she is crippled and extremely wounded. She is forced to walk around in a human body that can't regenerate. How much more wounded and crippled can an awakened being of that magnitude be? I think you are forgetting the vast power an awakened being has. Isley was already severly wounded when Helen and Deneve happened up him. Didn't Helen even say something like, "You mean even wounded, we don't have a chance against them?" I see nothing wrong with a powerfull awakened being losing all its limbs, and then reverting to a fully functional human body.
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:45   Link #247
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The real questions to me are: What state will Alicia be in? Will she revert back to AO when her sister dies? and if so what will she do? Will she stay human form? and if so will she still try to kill Riful? or morn her sister? seek revenge for her sister? Will she become partially awakened? Will Clare since Alicia's (and maybe Beth's) plight and come to save them because of Raphaela's memories influencing her? Does Riful have any way to gain control of Alicia? Can Clare get to her/them in time and if so does that endanger Helen/Deneve? ect...
Most likely, she will simply be mindless and completely unpredictable. Without Beth, she can't turn back to human form; without Beth, Alicia can't really do anything, she'll succumb very easily into Awakening.

The fact that she killed the AE's is proof of that, she can't even distinguish her fellow "team members"anymore. She's become a new Miata, without a Clarice to hold her hand

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she is crippled and extremely wounded. She is forced to walk around in a human body that can't regenerate. How much more wounded and crippled can an awakened being of that magnitude be? I think you are forgetting the vast power an awakened being has. Isley was already severly wounded when Helen and Deneve happened up him. Didn't Helen even say something like, "You mean even wounded, we don't have a chance against them?" I see nothing wrong with a powerfull awakened being losing all its limbs, and then reverting to a fully functional human body.


How much more wounded did I expect? Considering the difference between Raciella and Riful, and all the damage she sustained thus far, something like Dauf actually.


Perhaps I overestimated Raciellla.....or underestimated Riful. Isley though, I would say despite all the damage Riful has sustained, was weaker then her at the time then she is right now. That's probably the trick right there - Riful was at full power, naturally, before any of this started whereas Isley was barely had any yoki at all when he died. Despite all the damage she's sustained, I would say she still has more power then he did when he died.
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:56   Link #248
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4th for me

anyways, after looking at Beth's wound. I really don't see how she can recover even if those parasites weren't present...

it's a major chest/stomach wound...only Clare has recovered from one of those.
Just depends if Cynthia's still in the area she maybe able to help her heal, a wound like that may not be fatal Jean and Claire acted like it was possible + Miria and Deneve have both been wounded in that area and survived.
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:58   Link #249
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I don't quite remember you saying what exactly you wanted to discuss about the Alicia and Beth angle. But what exactly was a stupid theory? I can kind of see both sides of the Beth was the one who saved Riful argument. I don't quite understand what makes either side stupid though. I still favor that Beth saved Riful, because Alicia wiped out everyone except Riful.
I didn't say exactly what I wanted in a debate and that's because I kept reading everyone theories. They where all driven by emotions of everyone's first impressions. They all seemed stupid to me because each one was entirely based on one persons interpretation of the events that transpired, no one considered any other angles. Meaning they where C grade at best arguments, and on top of that they where short without a clear goal other then stating an opinion (so once again C at best).

I mean there was a nice idea or two (mainly about Alicia's motives in "defending" Riful, btw why did those who said she wanted to kill not think that she was more then strong enough to kill Riful and fast enough to do it before the AF's) but no one offered much support evidence (and what they did was from this chapter alone). For example no one considered Rubel's statement to Galatea that the time after Alicia reverts to human form is still a time Beth needs to maintain control, so clearly she still could fully awaken.

I could go on but I'm sure your catching my point... not to mention that all current theories are based off a translation of a translation.

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Most likely, she will simply be mindless and completely unpredictable. Without Beth, she can't turn back to human form; without Beth, Alicia can't really do anything, she'll succumb very easily into Awakening.

The fact that she killed the AE's is proof of that, she can't even distinguish her fellow "team members"anymore. She's become a new Miata, without a Clarice to hold her hand
What your thoughts on my last 3 questions:
1)Will Clare sense Alicia's (and maybe Beth's) plight and come to save them, because of Raphaela's memories influencing her?
2)Does Riful have any way to gain control of Alicia in her weakened state?
3)Can Clare get to her/them in time and if so does that endanger Helen/Deneve? ect...
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Old 2009-09-04, 01:59   Link #250
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I doubt Beth can be healed/regenerate, since she'd have to cure the infection too or that will kill her. Thus making the regeneration pointless. It not like she can cut her body in half and regrow it... she is an offensive fighter after all. Plus Cynthia is likely too weak to help her...
Okay, I don't know how I got sucked up into defending the viewpoint that Beth could be healed and regenerate, since I stated much earlier that Beth is probably a goner. I think this all depends on what an infection is in this case. Is the infection one that spreads? Possibly not. We've seen Deneve be alright by removing her arm. It is possible, though highly, extremely -- a long shot -- unlikely that Beth could recover if someone removed the Diglett from her stomach. Riful isn't a candidate, since she is severely crippled as far as Abyssal Ones go. But if Beth has near Abyssal powers, then Beth should be able to go recover. Also lets not forget that Awakening after removing the digglet would solve all problems as far as survival go.

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Beth is death, but she just hasn't realized it yet, IMHO. I mean she could survive (if Yagi so chooses) but without a more formed speculation to base this speculation on, I'm not willing to support this idea just yet.
I disagree with you there. I think that Beth realizes that she is probably going to die. She brings her sister back, which makes it more likely that she does know, because if she died without returning Alicia, then Alicia humanity would be gone.


Quote:

The real questions to me are:
What state will Alicia be in? Will she revert back to AO when her sister dies? and if so what will she do? Will she stay human form? and if so will she still try to kill Riful? or morn her sister? seek revenge for her sister? Will she become partially awakened? Will Clare sence Alicia's (and maybe Beth's) plight and come to save them, because of Raphaela's memories influencing her? Does Riful have any way to gain control of Alicia in her weakened state? Can Clare get to her/them in time and if so does that endanger Helen/Deneve? ect...
I don't know the answer to many of those. That would require the next chapter. I can only say what I think. 1) Alicia will be in a emotionally retarded state. 2) I'm speculating that she might be in an partially awakened state, but if she is going to follow Riful then she won't be a claymore much longer. so she is either going to remain partially awakened, which would be slightly weaker than riful, how the lady said she wanted it. or she would be fully awakened. 3) I doubt she will kill her mom. Morning depends on how much Alicia understands about the situation concerning her sister. 4) Riful does have a way to gain control of Alicia, if Alicia is a child in mind, possibly a consciousness the Org was unaware existed either if they thought Alicia and Beth were the same thing, that Beth Consciousness controlled both bodies. It is possible that Alicia is less developed that Beth. 5) Why do we want Clare to get to Alicia in Time? I don't see a purpose for it that would make the story more interesting so far.

Anyway. Who knows what will happen. And yes, I do have certain desires of paths I'd like to see, but that doesn't mean that I won't use logic to build speculation on those possible paths. I don't see what is wrong about speculating the path you like when there is a fork in the road as long as you are open to the other path too.
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:00   Link #251
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Yay for japanese raws!
My favorite line in this one is Riful's - something to the effect of "One you're all healed, I'll run you through full of holes with my own hands"

Also fun was when I looked up the verb: "okasu" = to invade; to raid; to trespass; to violate; to intrude on.

The caption on the last could thus be read: "Violated Beth!! What... will be born!?"

... on second thought, maybe it'd be better to use one of the word's other meanings...
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:05   Link #252
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... on second thought, maybe it'd be better to use one of the word's other meanings...


Great, now it suddenly looks like Beth is pregnant, and this thing came out of her stomach like the Alien monster
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:09   Link #253
Ryus
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Just depends if Cynthia's still in the area she maybe able to help her heal, a wound like that may not be fatal Jean and Claire acted like it was possible + Miria and Deneve have both been wounded in that area and survived.
Yes and No, Cynthia is likely still drained. Clare was at full power when struck and had enough reserves to keep fighting.Jean said her wound was fatal, after all Rigardo's hard was very thick, so a bigger wound then Clare received. Miria's wound was torture, so it was more about pain then damage... she likely healed very quickly due to this. The wound never penetrated her back, so no spinal damage. Deneve... well she's special when it comes to healing.

Plus lets not forget. Beth has a Phone Pole going through her gut and spine. She's trying to mentally control her sister, a very mentally taxing job. She's offensive, and now she being infected... Her odds of living are slim at best, the best chance I see, for her survival, is if she awakens and can regrow her gut then.
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:17   Link #254
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Most likely, she will simply be mindless and completely unpredictable.
Why would she be mindless. :P People kept saying that Alicia/Beth were stupid, and I never quite saw it, always pointing out that they seemed to be able to calculate things like how much damage they take if they went against riful, and that they just didn't have a emotional personality and acted more like robots. Now suppose the possibility that Alicia and Beth had to be a certain age before the whole mind link thing was trainable. So we have two distinct different personalities, but we do hear that conversation between Rubel and Galatea, and it sounded like they lost their individuality. Perhaps the Mind Link made both have Beth consciousness in that Beth controlled both bodies, or Beth consciousness got copied into each body. So in alicia, it is possible that a young child consciousness of Alicia was submerge under a vast, much stronger, adult consciousness of Beth. It is possible that Alicia will revert back to the consciousness she had before the soul link submerged it.


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I didn't say exactly what I wanted in a debate and that's because I kept reading everyone theories. They where all driven by emotions of everyone's first impressions. They all seemed stupid to me because each one was entirely based on one persons interpretation of the events that transpired, no one considered any other angles. Meaning they where C grade at best arguments, and on top of that they where short without a clear goal other then stating an opinion (so once again C at best).
I think that is very unfair. Those were just initial comments of those idea perhaps, reaction and brainstorm of what was just seen. People don't post their complete interpretations when they want to talk with everyone about what just happened. Also you don't know how emotion driven those arguments were. I for one always like to use logic, but that doesn't mean I won't use logic to speculate on the direction I would like to see the story go. But to say that the viewpoint is based on emotion is presumptuous, IMO. And I am open to other ideas too and willing to shift my view point. I post my first reaction to what I see. I like hearing other viewpoints, and then I probably revise my viewpoint after hearing what others have to say.

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I mean there was a nice idea or two (mainly about Alicia's motives in "defending" Riful, btw why did those who said she wanted to kill not think that she was more then strong enough to kill Riful and fast enough to do it before the AF's) but no one offered much support evidence (and what they did was from this chapter alone). For example no one considered Rubel's statement to Galatea that the time after Alicia reverts to human form is still a time Beth needs to maintain control, so clearly she still could fully awaken.
I think what killed the conversation was complaining by some that Yagi did not go the direction that they wanted him to go. Something fruitless IMO.

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I could go on but I'm sure your catching my point... not to mention that all current theories are based off a translation of a translation.
That's true, but part of the fun on here in the past was trying to guess what would happen by just seeing the chinese scans alone, and then seeing how right you were. I see nothing wrong with that and there was plenty of intelligent discussion going on. It just seems this month...
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:25   Link #255
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5) Why do we want Clare to get to Alicia in Time? I don't see a purpose for it that would make the story more interesting so far.
That all depends on if Yagi wants to play with the angle of Clare losing some of herself to Raphaela. Or fearing that she might be... Which is why I asked the question.

Clare is impulsive and her nature might just react to Raphaela's emotions.

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Anyway. Who knows what will happen. And yes, I do have certain desires of paths I'd like to see, but that doesn't mean that I won't use logic to build speculation on those possible paths. I don't see what is wrong about speculating the path you like when there is a fork in the road as long as you are open to the other path too.
The problem was most of those posters we're barley following there logic beyond a certain point let alone all the way to its conclusion. Plus many posters never seemed to be considering other options too deeply. It was like talking points on any news show, sure they sounded like they cover everything but they didn't.

However you're right as long as they where open there is nothing wrong posting speculation based of your desires however it doesn't mean others like me can't criticize there logic or the simplicity of there arguments, too. All discussion on it was rather simple and was spread out over several back and froths.
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:31   Link #256
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True, though I was waiting for other people to reply, hoping to start the speculations, and then I had to go to work. But you also notice it is slow here? Usually, after I go to work, there are 20 pages after some form of scans come out, and I like see that everyone has already made all the good points I wanted to.
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:36   Link #257
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I think that is very unfair. Those were just initial comments of those idea perhaps, reaction and brainstorm of what was just seen. People don't post their complete interpretations when they want to talk with everyone about what just happened. Also you don't know how emotion driven those arguments were. I for one always like to use logic, but that doesn't mean I won't use logic to speculate on the direction I would like to see the story go. But to say that the viewpoint is based on emotion is presumptuous, IMO. And I am open to other ideas too and willing to shift my view point. I post my first reaction to what I see. I like hearing other viewpoints, and then I probably revise my viewpoint after hearing what others have to say.
You asked my what I thought, and I stated it. I did try to steare the conversation but I left for work and came back and found they where still not part those "initial comments" and it was a back and forth between them. Your right there was also whining about Yagi going in a direction that some didn't like too.

I can't tell how emotion driven the motivation for an argument is definitively but there are clues. The length of the post and the arguments with in them can show you the authors mind set, not to mention sentence and paragraph structure. Short post that are replies to others posts tend to be emotionally driven for example, especially if replied to quickly. There were tons of those, plus many posts had there feelings of Yagi and the story as a whole thrown in too, which you yourself just said.

That was just my interpretation of most of the arguments/debates about alicia/beth. I chose to let is slide until the Jap>eng translation came out... but you asked.
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:38   Link #258
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True, though I was waiting for other people to reply, hoping to start the speculations, and then I had to go to work. But you also notice it is slow here? Usually, after I go to work, there are 20 pages after some form of scans come out, and I like see that everyone has already made all the good points I wanted to.


Then why where you just complaining about there being no intelligent conversations on this thread.
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:42   Link #259
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I don't see Bess surviving her wound. If Cynthia was to show up and help her, that would be a major cop out. Not to mention, what incentive is there for her to help Bess? Some Alicia+Bess+Riful+Ghost alliance?

Talk about a Deus Ex Machina!
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Old 2009-09-04, 02:48   Link #260
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Then why where you just complaining about there being no intelligent conversations on this thread.
You twisting/misinterpreting what I initially said. I said this place was looking more like one of those Naurto forums with the bad reputations than what it usually looks like, where you leave to work and are impressed by some of the points people are bringing up. quite frankly, this thread was depressing me, and I have tried to stay on topic about Alicia and Beth and Riful. Anyway, saying the usual intelligent conversation is absent is not really calling you stupid. You yourself saw, felt, what I was talking about with the feel of the conversation on here.
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