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Old 2009-09-04, 10:46   Link #281
MisterJB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta View Post
Why would Alicia slow down when Beth is surprised?

Also, more supporting evidence:



Note the same facial expression on both Beth and Alicia?
It's true that they share a soul-link and what happens to one, affects the other. Still, I need some evidence before believing that Beth can make her sister attack Riful even tough Alicia wants to attack Dauf, for example.
I don't believe Beth can control Alicia at her will. I think Beth just keeps her sister's soul from succumbing to the Awakening.
Maybe I'm not understanding completely the Soul-link but this is what I think.

Quote:
Beth can see through the eyes of Alicia.
Prove it. If she can see through Alicia's eyes, then why did Beth open hers to dodge Dauf's attacks?


Quote:
Why would Beth revert Alicia to retreat? The concept isn't clear to me. If Alicia would've went after Riful to kill her, then Riful would've been dead.
Well, because Beth is very wounded and she knows that she can't preserve Alicia's soul. So, she tried to revert Alicia to human before she completely Awakened. After that, I guess that Alicia and Beth would reach the conclusion that it's better to retreat and live to figth another day. Remember that she doesn't know that the spear has a parasite inside it and that wound is not necessarily fatal to a number #2
Alicia has not started to figth yet. She'll probrably attack Riful next chapter and their figth will be interrupted by the thing that comes out of Beth.

Quote:
Oh yeah it does. We're not saying that Riful is kind, but she does have a strong sense of honor. Riful lacks a bit of morality, but honor is a different concept than morals.
Torturing and killing those weaker than you doesn't make you honorable.
Besides, Riful said herself that she wouldn't let Renne go even if Renne had told her that Awakening Raciella would kill her imediatelly. This goes against the promise that she made to Renne.

Quote:
She was never getting mercilessly killed by Alicia. Period. Alicia may have had the upper hand, for that part of the fight, but the fight had barely even started.
Yes she was. Riful couldn't even land a single hit on Alicia and she had to rely on Dauf and cheap tricks on Beth to figth. That means she didn't had a single chance of defeating Alicia on her own. SHe was being OWNED without any mercy.

Quote:
I thought that Abyssal Ones automatically reverted back to human form when they are at their lowest energy level. Riful can't even regenerate after the reversion. Finds time to revert to human form? How long does it take? I thought it was instantaneous. Alicia was already going after Raciella. The ZACS were confused and had been so ever since an intensive battle between Riful and Alicia was going one that could've killed them just trying to jump in.
While it's true that it doesn't take much time to dress something, we're talking about a battle between Abyssal-levels creatures. Alicia should be faster than this.
And the AFs were not confused, they were just not going to get in the midde of Alicia's hunt, maybe they were even programmed to not attack Riful if Alicia is around

Quote:
yup. it makes sense. Alicia and Beth were focused on Raciellla, but couldn't even manage to reach her before Beth got wounded.
There is no evidence that Alicia focused on Raciella. We only saw Alicia dodging Raciella's spears. Why didn't she attack Riful imediatelly afterwards?
The only reasonable reason I see for Alicia not killing Riful as soon as she reverted to human is if Alicia was somehow paralysed by Beth's condition.



Quote:
I've already mentioned a possibility earlier. Riful caring of Dauf is a possible reason for Beth taking a gamble of saving Riful so that she will possibly take care of her sister.
Yes and I simply don't believe that. You don't leave your sister in the care of the thing that you had been trying to kill just some minutes ago.
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Last edited by MisterJB; 2009-09-04 at 11:03.
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Old 2009-09-04, 11:08   Link #282
elyK
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Interesting looking chapter, I can't wait to read the translations. I was a bit surprised that Beth was hit by a rod seeing as how she avoided dauf's attacks, though he isn't the fastest in the world was very close to her. But I am not complaining about that because in a fight anything can happen. I'm pretty sure that atm Beth is a goner considering she has a telephone pole in her torso that is also sucking the youki out of her. I think it is a good fate for her if you will; all Beth does is hold Alicia's soul/humanity while Alicia awakens and handles her business. Or in my eyes, Beth does all the work while Alicia gets to have all the fun. I do hope however that whatever comes out of that rod will look different from the other Luciella look-a-likes.
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Old 2009-09-04, 11:16   Link #283
greyhame6
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Quote:
Prove it. If she can see through Alicia's eyes, then why did Beth open hers to dodge Dauf's attacks?
absence of proof isnt proof of absence. we simply dont know enough about soul link to negate any theories. also beth had to open her eyes because alicia was looking at riful at that particular time not duff. so even if she could see through her sister's eyes she would still have to use her own
Quote:
Torturing and killing those weaker than you doesn't make you honorable. Besides, Riful said herself that she wouldn't let Renne go even if Renne had told her that Awakening Raciella would kill her imediatelly. This goes against the promise that she made to Renne.
she said probably lol. she may have listened to renee rant about raciella being uber strong or she many have chosen not to believe her. at least that what it says in the scanlations i got..... maybe we r looking at different scans. either way, the honor part is where riful "tends" to keep her word. she isnt completely dishonest.
Quote:
Yes she was. Riful couldn't even land a single hit on Alicia and she had to rely on Dauf and cheap tricks on Beth to figth. That means she didn't had a single chance of defeating Alicia on her own. SHe was being OWNED without any mercy.
she was merely analyzing their combat potential. throughout the fight she was testing them both for their strengths and weaknesses. if she really was getting annihilated that badly then she would have made a run for it like she tries to after parasite attack (or does she? i havent read the chapter so dunno)
Quote:
And the AFs were not confused, they were just not going to get in the midde of Alicia's hunt, maybe they were even programmed to not attack Riful if Alicia is around
yea the feeders were merely to guide alicia & beth to riful. they weren't even supposed to fight at all.
Quote:
Yes and I simply don't believe that. You don't leave your sister in the care of the thing that you had been trying to kill just some minutes ago.
that is definitely something that any normally raised person wouldnt do. but then these two sisters are anything but normal. maybe beth decided to take a chance and form an alliance. maybe alicia was trying to chop up riful and minced that parasite wave by mistake. could go either way
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Old 2009-09-04, 11:30   Link #284
Gangsta Spanksta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
It's true that they share a soul-link and what happens to one, affects the other. Still, I need some evidence before believing that Beth can make her sister attack Riful even tough Alicia wants to attack Dauf, for example.
I don't believe Beth can control Alicia at her will. I think Beth just keeps her sister's sould from succumbing to the Awakening.
Maybe I'm not understanding completely the Soul-link but this is what I think.
It is another plausible view. But look again at the same facial expression that are side by side in the manga. The sound bubbles even say the same thing are at the same place. Also, I like to note that Alicia doesn't have an uncontrollable nature as Beth gets distracted, she still does what she is supposed to but slows down. To me that is inconsistent with Alicia's awakened side becoming unsuppressed. She is still attacking her target, but slower. A battle of consciousness would probably result in more berserk behavior.


Quote:
Prove it. If she can see through Alicia's eyes, then why did Beth open hers to dodge Dauf's attacks?
Initial surprise. We have two options that I can see. 1) Beth was initially surprised by Dauf's attack, but regained composure, closed her eyes again, and was able to dodge Dauf because she still could see with Alicia, or 2) Beth was initially surprised by Dauf's attack, but regained composure, closed her eyes again, and was able to dodge Dauf by reading the flow of his yoki and having the same power as Teresa. I prefer 1 right now.


Quote:
Well, because Beth is very wounded and she knows that she can't preserve Alicia's soul. So, she tried to revert Alicia to human before she completely Awakened. After that, I guess that Alicia and Beth would reach the conclusion that it's better to retreat and live to figth another day. Remember that she doesn't know that the spear has a parasite inside it and that wound is not necessarily fatal to a number #2
Beth doesn't seem able to escape unless someone helps remove the spear from her. But you seem to neglect the point that Alicia kills everyone near Riful except Riful herself that has been brought up several times before. If Alicia was trying to kill Riful, or if she went berserk and tried to kill everyone, then why is Riful still standing and alive? You haven't tried to answer that yet. Alicia not killing Riful made me think that there had to be a reason, and it being Beth's doing is one logical path. The whole Alicia was just on a killing spree, berserk state, concept just falls apart for me without further explanation on that point.


Quote:
Alicia has not started to figth yet. She'll probrably attack Riful next chapter and their figth will be interrupted by the thing that comes out of Beth.
Why pause?


Quote:
Torturing and killing those weaker than you doesn't make you honorable.
Besides, Riful said herself that she wouldn't let Renne go even if Renne had told her that Awakening Raciella would kill her imediatelly. This goes against the promise that she made to Renne.
Torturing and killing does not make you a moral person, but what does that have to do with honor? You're mishmashing concepts here.

honor noun 1. honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions
moral adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong

As for the whole Renee thing, you misunderstood what Riful said. Riful starts out saying that Renee should've told her what was really going on. But then Riful thinks about it and realizes that she probably wouldn't have believed her and was a bit impatient. This is because of Clare, and Riful feeling betrayed by Clare. Riful has always honored her deals. Then she made a deal with Clare, someone she likes, and she fully expected Clare to keep her end of the Bargain. After the betrayal of trust, Riful isn't as patient and trusting anymore; she is constantly suspicious of the other person, that, that person will try to decieve her, and she isn't willing to take deception anymore. What Riful was saying is that she probably would've ended up killing Renee thinking that the girl tried to decieve her, after Riful told her the consequences of deception.

Quote:
Yes she was. Riful couldn't even land a single hit on Alicia and she had to rely on Dauf and cheap tricks on Beth to figth. That means she didn't had a single chance of defeating Alicia on her own. SHe was being OWNED without any mercy.
No she wasn't. Alicia hadn't done any major damage, besides cutting a few ribbons, while Riful was clearly studying her opponent, looking for weaknesses. And Cheap tricks? Now all of the sudden using Dauf is a cheap trick, cheating, when Alicia comes with ZACS. XD



Quote:
While it's true that it doesn't take much time to dress something, we're talking about a battle between Abyssal-levels creatures. Alicia should be faster than this.
And the AFs were not confused, they were just not going to get in the midde of Alicia's hunt, maybe they were even programmed to not attack Riful if Alicia is around
Why did Riful take off her dress? She didn't want to ruin it and it was important to her? Riful seems to be into her loli clothing. In fact, if that was the original dress, and not dauf's shirt, and a dress is that important to her, then it would make sense for her to find it to take it with her. A lot of things in this Manga are psychological after all. Anyway, I think you are thinking too highly of the ZACS mental capabilities.



Quote:
There is no evidence that Alicia focused on Raciella. We only saw Alicia dodging Raciella's spears. Why didn't she attack Riful imediatelly afterwards?
The only reasonable reason I see for Alicia not killing Riful as soon as she reverted to human is if Alicia was somehow paralysed by Beth's condition.
Well if Alicia didn't focus in on Raciella, then the orgs experiment was a true failure with no adaptability at all. If Alicia didn't shift focus on Raciella, she has the same flaw as Miata.


Quote:
Yes and I simply don't believe that. You don't leave your sister in the care of the thing that you had been trying to kill just some minutes ago.
You do if you figure that the org will kill your sister for being a partially awakened being. If you think your sister can't take care of herself, and the one sign of humanity you see if Riful and Dauf interaction with each other. You asked what purpose that scene with Riful and Dauf could have, and I provided a logical explanation of how a writer might use a scene like that. I think that Beth is making a huge gamble here. she doesn't know if it will pay off, but it may be her only choice.
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Old 2009-09-04, 11:30   Link #285
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Originally Posted by greyhame6 View Post
absence of proof isnt proof of absence.
this is a valid argument, just don't expect to win anybody over with it.
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Old 2009-09-04, 11:36   Link #286
greyhame6
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this is a valid argument, just don't expect to win anybody over with it.
that was used not to win but to show that all possibilities are on the table. those few words by themselves cannot support any argument as they are far too vague.
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Old 2009-09-04, 12:03   Link #287
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I was not trying to imply that you had won anything. simply that argument is valid yet has it's limits.
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Old 2009-09-04, 12:10   Link #288
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Why didn't Alicia helt Beth dodge the thingies .. seems logical
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Old 2009-09-04, 12:30   Link #289
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She could've helped Beth block it but not dodge. And I don't think those can be blocked.

PS: I wonder if those things infect a live AB only or just any Ab's chunk of flesh. If the latter was the case, we would expect to see major facepalm resurrections...
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Old 2009-09-04, 12:37   Link #290
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Data Book has a very good description of soul link. It does not imply the recipient of the 'soul' mind controls the awakened half of the link.

Also, Rafaela was deemed being the weak link when their soul link failed. It was due to her inability to suppress Luciela's awakening through their flawed soul link with imperfect youki alignment/syncronization. We see Rafaela trying to pull back Luciella by yelling at her to return back to claymore. It doesn't seem to indicate she is controlling Luciella.
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Old 2009-09-04, 12:38   Link #291
SagaraSouske
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
PS: I wonder if those things infect a live AB only or just any Ab's chunk of flesh. If the latter was the case, we would expect to see major facepalm resurrections...
Prob live AB or Claymore. I don't think AB flesh has youki flow.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:14   Link #292
Gangsta Spanksta
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A lot of us don't believe the Databooks to be accurate on everything.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:18   Link #293
Shiek927
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Originally Posted by Ryus View Post
What your thoughts on my last 3 questions:
1)Will Clare sense Alicia's (and maybe Beth's) plight and come to save them, because of Raphaela's memories influencing her?
2)Does Riful have any way to gain control of Alicia in her weakened state?
3)Can Clare get to her/them in time and if so does that endanger Helen/Deneve? ect...
1) Why would she do that? As far as we know, Rafaela has no relationship with those two or any sort of connection. Even if she did, I doubt she would abandon her friends right now to go help her enemy.

2) I'm leaning towards no. Even if Alicia could beat back the Org's conditioning by fully awakening, I'm sure such a process takes time. Riful is better off trying to kill her. Even if that's too risky, I doubt trying to persuade her will have any effect on her right now.

3) Well, it's hard to say but it's a pretty sizable distance. The Ghosts are near Raciella right now and Riful is trying to get away from her. But again, I doubt, memories or no, that Claire will abandon her friends to go help an enemy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta Spanksta View Post
Why would she be mindless. :P People kept saying that Alicia/Beth were stupid, and I never quite saw it, always pointing out that they seemed to be able to calculate things like how much damage they take if they went against riful, and that they just didn't have a emotional personality and acted more like robots. Now suppose the possibility that Alicia and Beth had to be a certain age before the whole mind link thing was trainable. So we have two distinct different personalities, but we do hear that conversation between Rubel and Galatea, and it sounded like they lost their individuality. Perhaps the Mind Link made both have Beth consciousness in that Beth controlled both bodies, or Beth consciousness got copied into each body. So in alicia, it is possible that a young child consciousness of Alicia was submerge under a vast, much stronger, adult consciousness of Beth. It is possible that Alicia will revert back to the consciousness she had before the soul link submerged it.
Gangsta, you just don't understand what I mean when I call her mindless.

She's not stupid in the sense that she's not logical; she's stupid in the sense that yes, she's lost her individuality. She has no indepedence, no personality, no emotions...to me, losing your own sense of self and being the walking puppet of the Organization = mindless.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you.


Quote:
While it's true that Riful fulfills her promises, torturing Claymores until Awakening and killig them afterwards doesn't make her honorable, at all.
It doesn't make her a nice person, yes, but being amiable and being honorable are different. The fact that she went out of her way to take Dauf with her despite him slowing her down and him asking her to let him go, shows me that she cares for the people who help her, she doesn't abandon them whenever it's convenient for her. That's honorable.


Quote:
Besides, what's the point of letting Dauf live? To have corny moments with Riful? Ok, we get it, they like each other. Now, kill him.
It would have been better if Riful saw Alicia landing in front of her (totally terrified BTW, what a wuss), turn around and witnessed Dauf being eaten by one Kitty. That could make Riful and Alicia join forces like many people want. (not me)
My hopes now lay on the thing that is coming out of Beth. That one migth be stronger than the others because of it's host.


Yagi must have a soft spot for Riful. She is the luckiest person in Claymore.
I don't know I could call her lucky after everything she's been through in the last 3 or 4 chapters, but yes, she's definitely been lucky so far to still be living.

Though I do wonder how on earth Dauf is still alive. I say he can still die from his injuries so he's not totally free yet, but the fact he's still breathing doesn't make me happy -_-

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Originally Posted by Creangeru View Post
More like a lack of breast to breastfeed her and make her succumb to her dark plans.
..........
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:30   Link #294
SagaraSouske
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Databook is published with Yagi's blessing. So the theories, descriptions, charts in there would need to go through Yagi before he would let them publish it. If he approves them, I don't see any reason to doubt them. There are some inconsistancies but overall databook has been pretty much canon.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:34   Link #295
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
Gangsta, you just don't understand what I mean when I call her mindless.

She's not stupid in the sense that she's not logical; she's stupid in the sense that yes, she's lost her individuality. She has no indepedence, no personality, no emotions...to me, losing your own sense of self and being the walking puppet of the Organization = mindless.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you.
Well, then you should use the right words, because mindless means without intelligence. That is why I've been using the term emotionally retarded and could also use robotic to describe her. It's like saying "a couple" when you mean "a few" but a couple always means two. Sure, some people will understand what you are saying, but then other people will read the literal meaning and take that. The idea is to express oneself clearly in a discussion, so you have to watch terminology, if you want people to get'cha.

BTW, you are still quoting wrong, and make it look like I am saying the next two quotes after the one that says it is from me. I think it makes things a little confusing, but be careful, because I've seen people get really upset on here when someone did that, saying that the quoter was sneakily trying to make it seem they were saying things that they didn't. An overreaction IMO, but that is one reason you should attribute quotes. just add the =Gangsta or =MisterJB like

(quote=Gangsta)
blah blah blah
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:45   Link #296
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Franky house is out.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:50   Link #297
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Well, then you should use the right words, because mindless means without intelligence. That is why I've been using the term emotionally retarded and could also use robotic to describe her. It's like saying "a couple" when you mean "a few" but a couple always means two. Sure, some people will understand what you are saying, but then other people will read the literal meaning and take that. The idea is to express oneself clearly in a discussion, so you have to watch terminology, if you want people to get'cha.

BTW, you are still quoting wrong, and make it look like I am saying the next two quotes after the one that says it is from me. I think it makes things a little confusing, but be careful, because I've seen people get really upset on here when someone did that, saying that the quoter was sneakily trying to make it seem they were saying things that they didn't. An overreaction IMO, but that is one reason you should attribute quotes. just add the =Gangsta or =MisterJB like

(quote=Gangsta)
blah blah blah
(/quote)
.............Goddamnit

Well, put it this way, it's not like they can think for themselves. They only know what is necessary for soul-linking and battle, they have no real knowledge of....anything else.

Right now, Alicia has lost Beth and is still in her awakened state. I think, whatever happens next chapter, will show clearly just how much intelligence she has when she's not on the Organization's leach, and I'm not expecting much.

Bet you anything they used Cnet's translations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gangsta
blah blah blah
Got it working
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:54   Link #298
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Raw is also out on Manga Helpers.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:56   Link #299
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.............Goddamnit

Well, put it this way, it's not like they can think for themselves. They only know what is necessary for soul-linking and battle, they have no real knowledge of....anything else.

Right now, Alicia has lost Beth and is still in her awakened state. I think, whatever happens next chapter, will show clearly just how much intelligence she has when she's not on the Organization's leach, and I'm not expecting much.

Bet you anything they used Cnet's translations.
They seem to use the first one out usually, which is CNets.

Anyway, like I said before, I think Alicia will return to the state of mind to how old she was before they started the mind link training. So I'm expecting a child.
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Old 2009-09-04, 13:57   Link #300
SagaraSouske
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The mini Luciela might be individually fairly powerful. IMO AF is still better then them. For example, all Isley has to do is completely destroy all the mini Lucielas where as AF will keep on regen back and then escape and share experience and improve.
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