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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi (2009) - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 110 53.14%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 27.54%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 15 7.25%
7 out of 10 : Good 18 8.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.93%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.97%
Voters: 207. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-04, 18:06   Link #201
Dr. Casey
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
However, all of the above stated... Haruhi really crossed the line in this episode. Even I, one of her more passionate defenders, can't defend her here. Her treatment of Mikuru in Tsuruya's house is just beyond the pale, and reflects a mind that, frankly, is just out of it.

Totally out of it.

It's not even that Haruhi is being cruel; it's that she doesn't even realize that she's being cruel. She doesn't even seem to view other people as human beings with some basic human rights - no, scratch that, it's deeper than that. Haruhi doesn't even understand why Kyon is getting upset. Even if Haruhi doesn't view other people as human beings with some basic human rights, she should still be cognizant of the fact that most people do... including Kyon.

As a whole, I think that Sigh (the novel) took Haruhi too far. It took her over the edge, I think. While it was nice to see an intense Kyon vs Haruhi bit, the lead-up to it just stretched Haruhi's character beyond the breaking point for me. I don't know - I just would have preferred it if Haruhi's actions were cold (cold enough to legitimately get a rise out of Kyon) but at least understandable. How can Haruhi think the way that she does in this episode? It actually makes her look breathtakingly ignorant and/or stupid, frankly. How Haruhi can be so good at school, and yet be this ignorant of what most people would call "common sense", is beyond me.

For this reason, I can't give this episode a 10. I give it a 9. In fairness, it's not KyoAni's fault - the novel itself is at fault here, imo; there's nothing KyoAni could do about it, short of major alteration. Still, it means that this episode presents Haruhi's character in a way that detracts a great deal from my appreciation of it.

Other than that, an excellent episode.
Hmm... is this mostly related to the quote about Mikuru being Haruhi's toy? Because I'm not sure that's supposed to be taken at face value. I interpreted that as Haruhi just being defensive and antagonistic because Kyon hurt her feelings; she was getting pretty emotional even before the attempted punch. So I don't know if her views are quite as extreme as they seem (Even if there's certainly some truth to that statement of hers). I might be wrong, of course, but 'She got worked up and became more of a douchemaster because of it' sounds valid enough to me.
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Old 2009-09-04, 18:08   Link #202
Sackett
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Of course that involves having your hand turned on it's side, rather than level. The latter of which being what Kyon's hand was like. So unless was planning to twist his hand into a proper hammer strike, he was gonna hit with his fingers rather than with the bottom of his fist.

Given Kyon's lack any sort of formal or even amateur HTH fighting experiance, I somehow doubt this was the case.


It seems far more likely that the animators didn't stop to visualize what a successful strike actually looks like before sitting down and doing the scene.


Relatively speaking, yes.

Of course Hulk ussually doesn't try smashing with his fingers

Maybe he was planning a roundhouse + smash? Swing the fist out and around to smash Haruhi in the side of the face with the bottom of his fist?

Obviously Kyon is not a serious fighter. Not sure that means he couldn't win a fight, just that he'd probably waste a lot of energy and get roughed up doing it cause he doesn't really know how.
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Old 2009-09-04, 18:39   Link #203
Jintor
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And a good lawyer would've gotten him off on self-defense.
Point of order: No lawyer could possibly have gotton Kyon for self-defence (self-defence implies usage of reasonable force in retaliation).
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Old 2009-09-04, 18:52   Link #204
Akka
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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Of course that involves having your hand turned on it's side, rather than level. The latter of which being what Kyon's hand was like. So unless was planning to twist his hand into a proper hammer strike, he was gonna hit with his fingers rather than with the bottom of his fist.
If you look closely, the very last image of the fist rising (in Haruhi's eye reflection), he starts to turn it vertically. And when it's grabbed by Koizumi in the two-three next images, it's already turned on its side.

So he was actually already in the "hammering" motion. Guess he was trying to hit the nail of the problem on the head
Quote:
Given Kyon's lack any sort of formal or even amateur HTH fighting experiance, I somehow doubt this was the case.
Actually, the tetsui is quite commonly used by people not trained in close-combat. It's the simplest up-down hit. A trained fighter will simply use it at more appropriate moments and make a better move when he does, but this punch (and the roundhouse punch) are the ones untrained people actually use in a fight.
The more "professionnal" punches are in fact the straight and backhand ones.
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Originally Posted by Jintor View Post
Point of order: No lawyer could possibly have gotton Kyon for self-defence (self-defence implies usage of reasonable force in retaliation).
I think it was rather more for the fun of the phrasing and not a strict point of law, you know
And anyway, what level is "reasonable force" when you're facing someone who can simply erase the whole world out of existence ?
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Old 2009-09-04, 19:03   Link #205
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You're going to have to prove that in a court of law for it to be used as a defense.
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... well at least it's consistent...
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Old 2009-09-04, 19:08   Link #206
Akka
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You're going to have to prove that in a court of law for it to be used as a defense.
I'll ask Yuki to alter the reality to resolve the problem
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Old 2009-09-04, 19:10   Link #207
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
If you look closely, the very last image of the fist rising (in Haruhi's eye reflection), he starts to turn it vertically. And when it's grabbed by Koizumi in the two-three next images, it's already turned on its side.

So he was actually already in the "hammering" motion. Guess he was trying to hit the nail of the problem on the head
I'm not sure you can tell what he was doing as he came down from that frame. It looked liked that motion was him bringing the arm up.
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Old 2009-09-04, 19:14   Link #208
Akka
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I'm not sure you can tell what he was doing as he came down from that frame. It looked liked that motion was him bringing the arm up.
The reflection in Haruhi's eye is the arm-up, which already can give a pretty good idea of how he was going to strike.
The next shot is the arm actually going down on Haruhi before being caught by Koizumi. It confirms that it seemed to be a tetsui.

And yes, I've actually nothing better to do with my time than looking at an anime frame by frame to see which kind of punch one character was about to land on another character.
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Old 2009-09-04, 19:22   Link #209
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
The next shot is the arm actually going down on Haruhi before being caught by Koizumi. It confirms that it seemed to be a tetsui.
In the shot where Koizumi grabs Kyon's hand, you can't exactly see what position the fist is in. I couldn't really identify any distinguishable twist.

Of course that shot was only a few frames, so I may be having trouble pausing on those shots.
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Old 2009-09-04, 19:49   Link #210
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Lets face it, after seeing that "punch" from Kyon... Haruhi has nothing to worry about.

I'll say it again... this is how you throw a punch.
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Old 2009-09-04, 19:54   Link #211
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Just finished watching the new episode with subtitles and...WOW! All i was thinking was
KYON PUNCH!!!!

And then, the cut it right before the get to the Cat.
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Old 2009-09-04, 20:46   Link #212
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I'm always amazed at how fans notice the smallest details in an anime show and magnify/exaggerate it into something epic (and thus makes me feel like I'm missing out on something that I normally wouldn't see as a big deal). Haruhi growing a ponytail in this episode is one example. I guess when you have a show that doesn't come with a lot of bells and whistles, you can't help but notice (and appreciate in some cases) the subtle things.

After watching, I was almost certain people were gonna bash Kyon for over reacting to Haruhi's bullying Miku-chan. And yet to my surprise, a lot of people felt his reaction was justified (and even long anticipated). I feel Kyon's reaction was justified, but Haruhi deserved a slap, not a punch, lol. My heart was racing in this scene, I was scared Haruhi was gonna erase the universe. I at least expected something similar to the endless 8 to happen. Perhaps her powers occur more when she's restless/dissatisfied rather than depressed. In any event, I was never fond of her attitude and it doesn't help that she's oblivious to the feelings of the people around her. It's a good thing she's cute.

Overall I rate this episode a 10/10, this is the first episode of the 2nd season that felt like a new episode. That alone justifies the perfect score (Well that and Tsuruya making a reappearance, god I missed her). Although I still can't get the bitter taste of E8 out of my mouth.
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Old 2009-09-04, 21:06   Link #213
mokuseimaru
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I haven't finished the episode, but about the Kyon Fist: he probably meant to hit with his knuckles, not with the flats of his fingers; people who have never thrown a punch but have seen a fair share of action movies (i.e., Kyon) tend to think this is how you're supposed to punch someone until they actually try it and break their hand.

As for why his hand was raised like that: he was winding up, like a pitcher. It's pretty much instinctual that if you're going to punch someone, you had better put the weight of your whole body and not just your arm if you want it too be any more that a closed-palm slap.
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Old 2009-09-04, 21:22   Link #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Casey View Post
Hmm... is this mostly related to the quote about Mikuru being Haruhi's toy?
Mostly. That... and bopping the drowsy Mikuru on the head in frustration after Haruhi was one of the two people who made Mikuru like that to begin with. The bopping thing is just standard fare douchebaggery, though - it's facepalm worthy, but not quite as bad as the "I've decided that Mikuru is my toy!" line.


Quote:

Because I'm not sure that's supposed to be taken at face value. I interpreted that as Haruhi just being defensive and antagonistic because Kyon hurt her feelings; she was getting pretty emotional even before the attempted punch. So I don't know if her views are quite as extreme as they seem (Even if there's certainly some truth to that statement of hers). I might be wrong, of course, but 'She got worked up and became more of a douchemaster because of it' sounds valid enough to me.
After re-watching... you could very well be right. Kyon's not the only one snapping here. Haruhi looks like she snapped too. The way she put her hand on her heart when saying "my toy" was... interesting to me.

... Maybe Haruhi is trying to say "Well, she's not your toy, Kyon! I'm sick and tired of seeing you treat her like your toy! ...So to stop that, I'm making her my toy, so there!" ? Perhaps the line has more to do with Haruhi's jealousy over Kyon's affections for Mikuru than anything truly malicious or evil or utterly out of it.
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Old 2009-09-04, 21:39   Link #215
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Haven't felt this emotionally angry for an anime for a while. If I were Kyon, I would have slapped Haruhi, regardless if the universe was going to end or not. You just don't abuse people like that, even if it is due to jealously.
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Old 2009-09-04, 22:04   Link #216
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The popular belief in parenting is that if you are going to punish your kids, make sure you tell them why exactly they are being punished. Haruhi, for all intent and purpose, is a child. Kyon's action, in this case, is appropriate considering he can recognize why Koizumi, Yuki, and Mikuru-chan (in her infinite cutesy way) have to tolerate Haruhi's abundant energy and go with her shinanigans. Kyon recognizes that they simply fear the implication that there are too much for them to lose.

I agree that he was going overboard, but something was needed to be done. I couldn't also help but notice how Koizumi did not interject when Kyon was pretty much shouting at her. Kyon did the job. He did not let her slide, but did not crush her enthusiasm altogether either. He made sure of that. We know it worked when the cherry blossoms were in full bloom.

Kyon was starting to become boring, but the episode has restored some of his charm that was found in the previous season. This was a good episode.
I understand the reasons for Kyon getting crazy, it wasn't something all of sudden, but it was too much. I mean, shouting at her? Okay. Slapping her? Well... I understand. But a fist? Against a girl? That's what i think it was overreacting from his part. It wasn't like Haruhi was beating Mikuru for good or something like that to act like this... Imho.

I understand Kyon's point, i just think he was going way too far with that. It looked like Haruhi was hitting Mikuru with an axe, hehe.

Well, Kyon was giving so much attention to Mikuru that i understand why Haruhi was bullying her so badly, she was just jealous, specially at Kyon snapping because of the kiss scene...
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Old 2009-09-04, 22:05   Link #217
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From looking at some of the screenshots, it seems that they finally got the animation right since there is a lack of K-ON! art style, but I'll take a look for myself once the afk subs are out...

I'm expecting that Haruhi is a you-know-what in this episode too.
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Old 2009-09-04, 22:06   Link #218
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Considering how worked up he got narrating that scene (or one very much like it that he wasn't present for filming), yeah.
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Old 2009-09-04, 23:22   Link #219
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... I've developed a theory.

I'm debating with myself whether or not to post it because...

1) If well-received, it's going to make the KyonHaruhi shipdom even more burgeoning, and even more searching for romance in every nook and cranny, than it already is.

2) If well-received, it at least makes Haruhi look smart again, if not sympathetic. I don't mind Haruhi looking villainous; that can be fun from time-to-time; but I hate the thought of her looking outright stupid.

... Well, I'm going to throw this out there anyway, since my appreciation of Haruhi's character is greater than my annoyance at every scene being filtered through a KyonHaruhi shipper lens.


Perhaps a big secondary goal of Haruhi's with this movie... is to utterly destroy any chance of KyonMikuru ever happening.

Think about it. This movie puts Mikuru right through the ringer; it wears her down and instead of simply making Mikuru look cute or sexy, it makes her look abused and worn out. Certainly, a whimpering Mikuru dripping in dirty water isn't as attractive a sight as a smiling Mikuru in a maid outfit serving you tea.

But, of course, there's the piece de resistance... getting Kyon, the cameraman, to film Koizumi kissing Mikuru "mouth on mouth!" (as Haruhi passionately demanded for). Perhaps Haruhi's thinking is that once Kyon watches Koizumi kiss Mikuru, then that's it - Kyon could never view Mikuru in the same light again. Maybe Haruhi is hoping that Kyon's interest in Mikuru will dwindle in the light of knowing that Koizumi's lips have touched Mikuru's, even if it was just for a movie scene.

All told, maybe a big part of the idea behind this movie production is Haruhi's elaborate scheme to make Kyon lose all romantic desire for Mikuru. If so... it's a bit evil, but it's also genius.

Now, if you run with this theory, Haruhi's reaction to Kyon makes perfect sense all-around. When Kyon tells Koizumi to not kiss Mikuru, it's doing three annoying things for Haruhi all at the same time...

1) On a basic level, Kyon is flat-out contradicting a direct command from Haruhi. In Haruhi's mind, I imagine that it's nothing less than a direct challenge to her authority and leadership of the Brigade. Anime-wise, it doesn't help that this came after the end of E8 which saw Kyon seemingly (in Haruhi's eyes) try to usurp her role as leader of the SOS Brigade with how he loudly invited everybody but her over to his place to help him with his homework. A dirty coup d'etat combined with leaving her out of the action entirely... and now he's trying a coup d'etat again. Yes, I can certainly see Haruhi getting quite upset at that.


2) Secondly, Kyon is foiling her diabolical scheme. He's getting in the way of the piece de resistance.


3) Thirdly, Kyon is, once again, showing affection and caring for Mikuru here; more than he overtly shows for Haruhi.

All-told, that's quite the three-pronged emotional whammy all in one act: Insubordination, plot-foiling, and showing more overt concern for Mikuru than for Haruhi.


However, Haruhi quickly regains her composure, and tries to make Mikuru more alert so that her plot won't be foiled. However, her means of doing that enrages Kyon even more, leading to the shouting confrontation between them.

At this point, it's probably clear to Haruhi that her plot is foiled beyond repair. So, she quickly conceives and takes hold of a Plan B! Since Plan B is total improvisation, it's not all that good. Plan B is trying to tear Kyon and Mikuru apart for good by telling Kyon that Mikuru is Haruhi's toy.

Not surprisingly, Kyon takes this the way I took it, and he gets enraged and throws a punch.

... It now occurs to me that Haruhi might see all of this as Kyon's way of insisting upon the continuation of his close relationship (as Haruhi probably sees it) with Mikuru. Kyon here is the manly man doing all he can to keep his relationship with Mikuru alive, and by golly, if he has to pound even Haruhi to keep it alive, he will!

So, this is what Haruhi is looking at here (from her perspective)...

1) Kyon trying to pull a coup d'etat against her... twice now.

2) Kyon foiling her carefully laid plot.

3) Kyon showing way more caring for Mikuru than for Haruhi

4) In fact, Kyon liking Mikuru so much more than Haruhi that he's actually willing to pound Haruhi just to keep his relationship with Mikuru alive.


This is total, utter rebellion and rejection in Haruhi's eyes. And from her best friend to boot. It's amazing how she could hold those tears back at all.


Well, that's my theory. What do other people here think?
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Old 2009-09-04, 23:29   Link #220
Zek
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I understand the reasons for Kyon getting crazy, it wasn't something all of sudden, but it was too much. I mean, shouting at her? Okay. Slapping her? Well... I understand. But a fist? Against a girl? That's what i think it was overreacting from his part. It wasn't like Haruhi was beating Mikuru for good or something like that to act like this... Imho.

I understand Kyon's point, i just think he was going way too far with that. It looked like Haruhi was hitting Mikuru with an axe, hehe.

Well, Kyon was giving so much attention to Mikuru that i understand why Haruhi was bullying her so badly, she was just jealous, specially at Kyon snapping because of the kiss scene...
Of course he went too far, I don't think it's meant to be implied that he did the right thing. Koizumi stopped him for a reason. I think Kyon overreacted because he was fed up with being so powerless against Haruhi all the time. Had he understood her better he would have realized that just shouting at her and refusing to cooperate would probably have been enough to get her to realize she's crossed the line, but he's just a teen too and not a whole lot more mature than she is.
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