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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi (2009) - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 110 53.14%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 27.54%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 15 7.25%
7 out of 10 : Good 18 8.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.93%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.97%
Voters: 207. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-08, 18:56   Link #421
Akka
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Deep down inside, I don't think that Haruhi is this. I think that Haruhi as a strong sense of entitlement, but it's not quite the same thing. I don't think that Haruhi views herself as particularly special. She wants to be special, but she doesn't feel that way... which is a big reason for why she searches for what she considers truly special.
She's definitely thinking herself as a great leader, a great producer, a great... whatever she's doing at the time.

She's looking at her movie and thinking it's a great movie. This is a self-grandiose twisting or reality that can only be matched by her own godlike powers
Quote:
I think that she feels guilty at times, but she's just too emotionally insecure to admit when she's wrong. She fears that if she admits error that it may cost her the support of her Brigade.

So... that takes out a couple, I think, and it doesn't really leave enough to call her "aggressively narcissistic".
She doesn't feel guilty. She doesn't even consider she might be wrong. That's the entire Sigh's raison d'Ítre and the turning point in her character development - when she learns guilt.
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Old 2009-09-08, 18:57   Link #422
Kaisos Erranon
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You're confusing "free will" and "time paradox" here.
Free will is "can Older Mikuru decide by herself to kill or not to kill her younger self ?" (regardless of it being a great or horrible decision, it's only about the possibility for her to take it).
Time paradox is "what would happen if Older Mikuru would kill her younger self ?".
And I'd say, because her killing her past self would be a paradox/open time loop, (I think that's the term) she is physically incapable of taking that action.

And if she is incapable of taking that action, and making that choice, there cannot be free will.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Why do you think so many people call her a sociopath ? ^^
a) Sociopaths are irredeemably "evil".

b) Haruhi gets a lot better and more complex throughout the novels. By definition, although she exhibits many of the typical sociopath traits, she cannot be a sociopath.

c) Your defense is "it's a cartoon, so something unrealistic like a sociopath being redeemed is perfectly valid".

d) This is a stupid argument, as "it's a cartoon, so X" can be used to justify just about anything. Nor does it make sense in-universe, as Haruhi uses a lot of real-world science.

e) Come up with a better argument?

f) For my sake, please. I need more fodder here.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
She doesn't feel guilty. She doesn't even consider she might be wrong. That's the entire Sigh's raison d'Ítre and the turning point in her character development - when she learns guilt.
Then she isn't a sociopath.
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Old 2009-09-08, 18:57   Link #423
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yes, because they are bound by the knowledge that they have done so, so they have to go do those things.
That doesn't make sense at all.

They have every ability to say "screw it - if I don't want to do it, I won't do it, period".


Quote:
They physically cannot just sit on their arse and go "oh well, it'll all turn out in the end".
Of course they can do that, Kaisos.

Or, at the very least, the person at the top of Mikuru's organization who's making the decisions pertaining to how her organization operates can do it (this same person may be literally forcing his or her subordinates to do what they do).


Quote:
Exactly. Can't happen.

The fact that she can't do this precludes any possibility of free will.
Kaisos... not being able to do one thing doesn't mean you lose free will in all aspects.


Quote:
Just because an idea doesn't fit with your pretty little worldview does not mean you should automatically reject it.
Just because an idea doesn't fit with your pretty little conception of how paradoxes work (or don't work) does not mean you should automatically reject it.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:00   Link #424
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
They have every ability to say "screw it - if I don't want to do it, I won't do it, period".
Then the universe breaks, and BAD END.

...No, they can't do that.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kaisos... not being able to do one thing doesn't mean you lose free will in all aspects.
...Actually, for the purposes of this argument, yeah, it does.

If you can't take actions while in the past because doing those actions would break the universe, then yeah, you don't have free will because you're bound to choices you've already made.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:06   Link #425
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then the universe breaks, and BAD END.
And people can choose to create a BAD END.

Case in point is this very episode, going by what a lot of people think would result from Kyon landing that punch on Haruhi.

Kyon reached a point where he just didn't care any more - he was going to punch Haruhi even if it did put the universe in jeopardy.

Itsuki prevented Kyon from gaining follow-through, but in Kyon's own mind, he chose to risk a BAD END.


Quote:

...No, they can't do that.
Yeah, they can.


Quote:

...Actually, for the purposes of this argument, yeah, it does.
No, it doesn't.


Quote:

If you can't take actions while in the past because doing those actions would break the universe, then yeah, you don't have free will because you're bound to choices you've already made.
Well, technically, if you can travel into the pass, and move freely about in the past, then yeah, you could kill your pass self.

It would create a paradox (or an alternate time line), but you could do it.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:10   Link #426
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Itsuki prevented Kyon from gaining follow-through, but in Kyon's own mind, he chose to risk a BAD END.
Yes, and he couldn't actually do it.

No matter what way that event occurred, the outcome would have been the same.

It's the illusion of choice. The illusion of free will.

(Read Vol. 7.)

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It would create a paradox (or an alternate time line), but you could do it.
And if alternate timelines can't exist, and I don't think they do in Haruhi, then something would prevent you from shooting yourself if you chose to do so.

Or you just couldn't find your younger self, or you simply couldn't make the choice to begin with.

Universe hates paradoxes.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:19   Link #427
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I never saw Star Trek as having much to say concerning the existence of God, one way or the other.
There was an episode of star trek the next generation that had all the major factions (klingons, cardassians, romulans and the federation) meet on a planet where they found out that an accient alien civilisation discovered they were the only beings in the entire galaxy, not wishing anyone else to experience what they did they decided to create all other life based off their basic design.

The science was a bit iffy in that episode.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:20   Link #428
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yes, and he couldn't actually do it.

No matter what way that event occurred, the outcome would have been the same.

It's the illusion of choice. The illusion of free will.

(Read Vol. 7.)



And if alternate timelines can't exist, and I don't think they do in Haruhi, then something would prevent you from shooting yourself if you chose to do so.

Or you just couldn't find your younger self, or you simply couldn't make the choice to begin with.

Universe hates paradoxes.

Purely for argument's sake... let's say that you're right here.

This still doesn't negate free will within this anime.

Intent alone is important, Kaisos; it's a key element to free will. That's why the mere attempt to kill somebody is a crime, even if you fail to successfully do so.

Kyon can choose to attempt to punch Haruhi... or he can choose not to.

He has the free will to have different intentions. Simply being able to choose from different goals is free will in and of itself, even if a chosen goal will be denied you.

If your argument is right... it's very limiting to be sure, but in their own minds; in their own decision making process, they do have free will.

The "Universe" may conspire to stop these characters from achieving BAD ENDs, but they can still choose to risk BAD ENDs anyway.

Edit: And actually, Kaisos, the beauty here is that a set future doesn't prevent different intentions. You can choose between different intentions; it's just that those intentions can't be allowed to alter the future (going by your argument).
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:24   Link #429
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And I'd say, because her killing her past self would be a paradox/open time loop, (I think that's the term) she is physically incapable of taking that action.

And if she is incapable of taking that action, and making that choice, there cannot be free will.
1) The very principle of a paradox is that it's a logical impossibility without a deductible answer about it. Even all-knowing Yuki didn't answer the question about time paradox. You can't use a paradox to prove anything.

2) Once again : free will is about the possibility to take a decision, not about taking it.
You can't say "Older Mikuru is physically unable to kill herself !". Well, actually you can, but it doesn't make an argument. Because she might not do it for plenty of reasons which has nothing to do with having free will or not.
I'm not dumb enough to drive a knife in my head. Does it makes you able to say "ahah, you won't drive a knife through your head, so you've no free will ?". No. It's just that I would be stupid to do it, and I'm not stupid - at least not that stupid.
On the other hand, I can decide to wave my hand above my head right now (because this won't maim me). Or not.

I'm not even trying to prove that free will does exist. I'm just pointing out that the arguments against free will because there is a future are simply absurd and use fallacies.
Quote:
a) Sociopaths are irredeemably "evil".

b) Haruhi gets a lot better and more complex throughout the novels. By definition, although she exhibits many of the typical sociopath traits, she cannot be a sociopath.

c) Your defense is "it's a cartoon, so something unrealistic like a sociopath being redeemed is perfectly valid".

d) This is a stupid argument, as "it's a cartoon, so X" can be used to justify just about anything. Nor does it make sense in-universe, as Haruhi uses a lot of real-world science/quantum physics.
Well, nice circular argument here - you take a point as both a premise and a conclusion ("Haruhi is sufficiently well written to be evaluated just like a real person would be").


Just to clear this up : I believe that Haruhi has a behaviour that only a sociopath would have.
That she gets better is up to the author - not to real-life human psyche. It's not because the author is knowledgeable in many science points that he's not able to make errors (E8 is laden with statistical and behavioural absurdities, even if they all have some half-justifying points).
Heck, he may even do it on purpose, to make the story more interesting (if Haruhi stayed a sociopath, she wouldn't be as interesting as a character). It's called "creative license".

Your argument is that something in fiction is false because of real-life impossibilities. And you tell me to get a better argument, while using a circular one ? Come on...
Quote:
e) Come up with a better argument?

f) For my sake, please. I need more fodder here.
I'm afraid you have yet to discover that being cocky and childish doesn't win an argument with people who have actually grown up.
Use more energy into making arguments that are logical and make sense, and less energy into playing the badass kid. You will fare better.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:30   Link #430
Kaisos Erranon
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Okay, I lose both arguments. That's fine, I'll accept that.

I still don't think Haruhi is a sociopath, and I think that even discussing that possibility continues a never-ending argument. I hate people.

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I'm afraid you have yet to discover that being cocky and childish doesn't win an argument with people who have actually grown up.
...I was trying to be somewhat, er, facetious? Rather than trying to be "cocky", as you're putting it.

I wasn't trying to insult you there, so you really don't have to go calling me a child.

Maybe I should hide my age like other people who are afraid of judgment. But of course then people would treat me like a 12-year-old.

Edit: Okay, nice edit there. *scrubbed for idiocy*

Screw this, I'm done discussing it. I'm just going to get even angrier and drive my foot even further into my mouth, and we all know how entertaining that must be for you.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:41   Link #431
Akka
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Okay, I lose both arguments. That's fine, I'll accept that.

I still don't think Haruhi is a sociopath, and I think that even discussing that possibility continues a never-ending argument. I hate people.
It's really hard to have a definite answer on this one, because of the very nature of fictionnal work.
The work can be only as realist as the author is able (and wants) to do it, while real stuff is, well, real, and as such has no need of justification to be realist.
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...I was trying to be somewhat, er, facetious? Rather than trying to be "cocky", as you're putting it.

I wasn't trying to insult you there, so you really don't have to go calling me a child.

Maybe I should hide my age like other people who are afraid of judgment. But of course then people would treat me like a 12-year-old.
If you were really trying to be facetious and not agressive, then please accept my apologies. I thought you were just obnoxious.

If possible, try to make it more obvious next time. And I'll try not to be irritated as quickly ^^

Edit :
Quote:
Screw this, I'm done discussing it. I'm just going to get even angrier and drive my foot even further into my mouth, and we all know how entertaining that must be for you.
Actually, I don't find it particularly enjoyable when people blunder because they are angry - I would much prefer them to keep their calm and follow the arguments in a more constructive manner (and yes, I know that I'm guilty of sometimes answering back in an angry manner at perceived insults, just like above).

Last edited by Akka; 2009-09-08 at 19:52.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:49   Link #432
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Kinda late, but my toughts about this post:

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Originally Posted by RedWing View Post
Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

1. Glibness/superficial charm(Not sure what this is tbh lol)
2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
3. Pathological lying
4. Cunning/manipulative
5. Lack of remorse or guilt
6. Emotionally shallow
7. Callous/lack of empathy
8. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
5- She aparently can feel guilty. Isn't easy too see, but what she felt in Lone Island was something similar. Also, when she remade the troblesome scene, she remade it completly.

7- Lone Island, Live A Live, and even Boredom show she can feel empathy. She lack it in some extend, but no completly.

8- Neve seen she avoiding responsibillity. Really. Maybe runing away from that monk, but she never shit the responsibillity to someone else, for exemple.

I have to say she fit in the 4, tough. The blackmail was pretty manipulative. She even that the troble to look for the best models beforehand. However, 2 or 3 (2,4 and maybe 1) points of 8 is not big deal.

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Originally Posted by RedWing View Post
Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle

1. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
2. Parasitic lifestyle (To a certain extent)
3. Poor behavioral control
4. Promiscuous sexual behavior
5. Lack of realistic, long-term goals (Not to sure on this one - show doesn't elaborate)
6. Impulsiveness
7. Irresponsibility

8. Juvenile delinquency
9. Early behavioral problems (Not sure)
10. Revocation of conditional release
2- She is a teen in a middle class family. Of couse she is parasitic. She does, however, do many of the works she invents to her friends.

3- She, actually, control herself pretty well. Just see how she acts in the Lone Island. Or early Melancholy(beforre creating the SOS Dan).

5- This shouldn't matter to a teen, really.

8- You should define 'deliquency'. She don't fit at all in what most would call 'delinquent'. She don't cause troble to anyone but her friends, actually.

9- Well, she is young. Any behavioral problem would be 'early'.

For the 4 (someone pointed). She is 15 already. Don't know if you can call it 'promiscuous'. The puberty hormones are already there.

I count 4 out 10(1, 6, 7 and 9). Hardly a big problem.

She have some (many, maybe) issues. But hardly a sociopath.
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Old 2009-09-08, 19:52   Link #433
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I'm going to speak out on the sociopath argument just a bit.

If Haruhi always and consistently acted in a sociopathic way, then I could perhaps see it. That is, to say, if she constantly engaged in somewhat malevolent and/or uncaring behavior like blackmailing the CCP and essentially stealing his club's best computer, and like getting Mikuru drunk for a love scene... then maybe then I could see the sociopath argument.

But the thing is... Haruhi has her good moments to. She really did do a lot of good in Live Alive, and in the trip to the Island Villa. She truly does care about Kyon and about what Kyon thinks of her (Live Alive proves that in spades), and I think that she wants to be a decent human being, but she just gets carried away a bit due to her immaturity and difficulty in putting herself in other people's shoes.
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Old 2009-09-08, 20:14   Link #434
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I'm going to speak out on the sociopath argument just a bit.

If Haruhi always and consistently acted in a sociopathic way, then I could perhaps see it. That is, to say, if she constantly engaged in somewhat malevolent and/or uncaring behavior like blackmailing the CCP and essentially stealing his club's best computer, and like getting Mikuru drunk for a love scene... then maybe then I could see the sociopath argument.

But the thing is... Haruhi has her good moments to. She really did do a lot of good in Live Alive, and in the trip to the Island Villa. She truly does care about Kyon and about what Kyon thinks of her (Live Alive proves that in spades), and I think that she wants to be a decent human being, but she just gets carried away a bit due to her immaturity and difficulty in putting herself in other people's shoes.
Well, I have two points to answer about this :

First, sociopathy is a grave and uncurable affliction, but like all afflictions, it has several degrees of severity, and though the "major points" are the same, the actual details are as unique as people.
Even in real life, a sociopath isn't the caricatural clear-cut mass-murderer that people often imagine. They have a underlying way of looking at the world that is fundamentally broken, but it's not as clear-cut as it may seem, especially for the milder forms.
Being a sociopath doesn't mean you're a 24/24 7/7 villain. You're not constantly looking out hurting people. You can even give a hand, be nice and have good moments. The difference is that, deep down, you're fundamentally broken and do all this due to twisted and completely self-centered motives.
As such, it's perfectly possible for a sociopath to have her "good moments".


The second point is that, AFAIK, the first "real good" moments Haruhi have, are after the Sigh arc - when she's starting to get out of her sociopathy (which she wouldn't be able if she was a real life sociopath, but I call the Author Allmighty on this one) and to learn what it is to be a human.


Oh, and finally : it's also perfectly acceptable to say "she's not a clinical sociopath, she's just an over-the-top genki bitch". The creative license works both way, and we may just as well accept that someone who acts just like a sociopath would, isn't really one and only have more leeway Because The Author Decided So, as we are to think that she's a real sociopath and could get out of it Because The Author Decided So.
I tend to call her a sociopath because it reflects better how she actually acts, and how someone who would act like that IRL would actually BE a sociopath. But honestly, the whole point is rather moot, because of all that I explained above.
But I'm someone with quite a bit of imagination, who can perfectly imagine what someone like her would be to live through, and I like to remind apologists that, YES, Haruhi is TRULY unsufferable, and no amount of downplay will change that SHE'S A DAMN SOCIOPATHIC BITCH
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Old 2009-09-08, 20:16   Link #435
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Haruhi just has no good parenting when she was growing up, she doesn't know any boundaries or manners because nobody brought her up that way.

But I guess there can be explanations as to why it is like that in the first place.

Also, it's about time the boys got some positive exposure, Kyon and Itsuki.
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Old 2009-09-08, 20:41   Link #436
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If apply that list to anime world then the major of evil anti-hero/villians get more than 80% of them(don't bring the Deathnote in here please, but when i read that list, i thought of Kira...), and at least 50% of all Genki characters will tick 9/10 for the 2nd list

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Except in your version of the world, Haruhi is the only "person" in the universe. You can't "clear" boredom, it isn't a memory; it is the absence of memory. You can't remove a hole from the ground by digging further down, you have to fill it up with something.
And in Endless Eight, Haruhi was unhappy about the Summer. EVERY REBOOT. She obviously didn't magically make herself "happy".
You are making assumptions about Haruhi that blatantly contradicts the franchise now. It just isn't that convincing.
By the way, there IS a determined path, or at least one of them. Mikuru's future exists, at least except during Endless Eight. So Haruhi hasn't been changing the future every day; it would have made Mikuru's people impossible to function as manipulators of the Past.
When i say i believe you don't have freewill as well, i means a person does not need to have freewill to be a "person".
Human do not have the ability to create the new things out of nothing, including ideas (that's how we can distinct the real world from a dream). A character you create will always be limited by your own mind/brain's threshold.
But a higher being has that ability. She can create new living beings(human, espers and aliens), see and design the time frames then just roleplay one of them and have that world amuse her until whatever she want. That could be Haruhi.
Why she needs to be amused when she has the power to make herself happy? Who knows, it make no sense from human's POV. It makes no sense from human's POV for something which is not created by anything but can create everything as well. Then it also makes no sense to us: why a being needs do something without a goal or purpose.
About the time travellers, time is also just a dimension. I think you can design everything through time and space if you are God

As Ithekro mentioned (Ithekro lied through xD), the only reason that we often take Itsuki's views "Haruhi as a God" is because that's the theory he used to make Kyon understanding the situation(Kyon, the only normal human out there). We can't understand what's in Yuki's mind (she can't even explain them through human's language). We can't understand through Mikuru's(she can't explain anything with her "Classified Information" censorship). We may not even understand things from Itsuki's POV, their brains could evolved and be able to see through the paradoxes that human stuck for past thousands years...
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Old 2009-09-08, 21:19   Link #437
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As I said here, I don't consider her a sociopath, though it does not excuse her behavior. (Some good discussion in Haruhi's own thread.) Though it does seem like a debate of semantics at times. Could it just be said that some of her actions are sociopathic?
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Old 2009-09-08, 21:26   Link #438
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Then the universe breaks, and BAD END.

...No, they can't do that.
Oh yes you can. If Big Mikuru decided to off little Mikuru, picked up a blaster and hopped into TARDIS, she becomes a quantum superposition of Mikuru-states, listed below:

A - Big Mikuru succeeds in offing little Mikuru
B - Big Mikuru shoots at little Mikuru and misses. She doesn't miss the next time.
B' - Same as B, except she has an attack of conscience and goes home before killing little Mikuru.
C - Before she can get to little Mikuru, Big Mikuru is repeatedly molested by a half-awake Haruhi, who confuses her for little Mikuru. Big Mikuru shoots Haruhi in self-defense.
C' - Same as C, except Big Mikuru doesn't shoot Haruhi and goes home for intensive psychological therapy.
D - Big Mikuru's blaster experiences an unfortunate malfunction and she comes home without committing suicide by ontological paradox.

So which Big Mikuru is likely to emerge from TARDIS? It's obviously not going to be A, B, or C, since these would be utterly incompatible with her present space-time. The Mikuru who emerges from TARDIS will either be B', C', or D, with the highest probability going to the Mikuru whose history is the most compatible with the space-time she's returning to. If we were to repeat the experiment a hundred times, you could end up with a hundred different possible Big Mikurus who failed to kill little Mikuru emerging from TARDIS. But every Big Mikuru who succeeded no longer counts in the summation of possible histories leading to that point. Thus, while they may have succeeded in creating an ontological paradox, they're not going to be coming out of TARDIS again.

And there's obviously quite a number of histories that could lead to the time-travelers' current space-time. If there weren't, then there'd be no need for Continuity Cops like Mikuru to go back into the past to adjust things to ensure that history is, more or less, like they remembered it.
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Old 2009-09-08, 21:36   Link #439
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Random thought from this discussion:

I never bought into the idea that Haruhi is God. She could be, but it may not be definite. Only one of the three factions states that she is, and they are really not sure either. While she definitely has the power to alter some parts of reality, she may not be omnipotent. One of the issues is that you can't tell if the universe has been destroyed and recreated. So there's a lot of speculation here.

But that's one of the things about the series. The truth is very hidden due to everyone's secrecy and hidden agendas , and so everything everyone says must be taken with a grain of salt. Hell, you can't even trust the narrator (Kyon) at times.
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Old 2009-09-08, 21:54   Link #440
mokuseimaru
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yes, because they are bound by the knowledge that they have done so, so they have to go do those things. They physically cannot just sit on their arse and go "oh well, it'll all turn out in the end".

The future says they have to do these things so they do them.
Unless they don't. Just because there are instances in which people from the future go back in time to fulfill roles that history informs them they fulfilled doesn't mean that they are physically going to be forced to do so. They can indeed sit on their asses and see what happens if they want to. Why can't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post

On basic thing of note...it is Itsuki's group's theory that she's a god. The other groups don't see her that way. Just a being with a large amount of power. Sort of like the older Star Trek versions of gods...a being or alien that is more evolved that humans, but not the creator of all things...(mainly, from what I can understand Star Trek revolves around the notion that there is no such thing as God, and that rational people can make their own choices and don't need religion to tell them what to do...at least in the old Star Trek)...and certainly not something to worship.
That may be the case in Star Trek (I know Gene Rodenberry or whatever his name was was an atheist), but Haruhi definitely has nothing to do with "sufficiently evolved aliens". Nor does Yuki or the DITE, which has no physical existence, cannot be detected by any physical means, and didn't start out as a biological entity but as a self-ordering conglomeration of information and/or thought. Basically, a god; a limited god, but still a god. But since the DITE is basically a Russel's Teapot, no one's going to know about it to worship it in the first place. And since Haruhi's powers greatly resemble the DITE's, it might not be entirely irrational to say that her "data" when considered separately from her body is that of a god. But then again, I think the Espers in particular might think this way because, unlike the various DITE-interfaces and the time-travelers, their powers come directly from her---in a way, they are almost like priests attending to the temple of her subconscious.

Last edited by mokuseimaru; 2009-09-08 at 22:14.
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