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View Poll Results: Suzumiya Haruhi (2009) - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 110 53.14%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 57 27.54%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 15 7.25%
7 out of 10 : Good 18 8.70%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 1.93%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.48%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.97%
Voters: 207. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-09, 04:18   Link #461
Akka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Ah, I see where you're coming from there.

...I tend to use the novels as "more canon" than the anime in regards to theories because KyoAni has no fucking idea what they're doing.
The author himself has directed some ep, and he's an advisor for the serie, so I doubt they really have "no idea what they're doing"...
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Simply put, the clothes are a cosmetic thing that they thought up to keep us less bored. There's no evidence in the novel that clothing changed at all from loop to loop.
Is there any evidence it didn't ? ^^
Quote:
So I don't think you can say that different things happening in the novel's version of E8 proves that free will exists in Haruhi. But that's just my opinion. In fact, why are we STILL arguing this when it's going to go nowhere?
The problem is, AFAIK, the E8 novel only talked about the last iteration, so we can't really have a definite answer about the differences from one loop to another.
Quote:
Also my point earlier was the following: Given a specific psychological profile of an individual (especially cliched to hell and back individuals like Haruhi characters) and enough training in the field it's relatively easy to predict what they'll do in any given situation... thing is, even if people can make a choice, they'll usually make the same choice every time given the same exact situation for each choice.
Of course. That's the very idea of a personnality : that some things are more "in character" with you than other, and that you're more prone to take some decisions than some others.
It doesn't mean the absence of free will, it means a part of predictability. It's not because there is decisions I will nearly never make, that it means I do not take decisions at all.
Quote:
So free will is just an illusion created by our brains as a way of coping with the fact that our choices are pretty much made for us by our own brains. It's like how your brain rationalizes you jumping after stepping on a thumbtack when in reality you jumped and THEN realized you stepped on a thumbtack.
Why our brain should be coping with something they decide themselves ? It makes no sense.
If I have to chose between two ice cream, one with a flavour I love and another with a flavour I hate, do I need a psychological coping mechanism to console me from the anguish of chosing the flavour I love ? Didn't think so ^^

And finally, it's good and well to say that free will is an illusion. But without proof and an argument, it's just words. Saying "I don't believe in Free Will" is a statement of an opinion, but it's not an argument, and you need a bit more than just believing it's the case to use it in a reasoning. You have to PROVE it doesn't exist ; which is quite a bit more tricky, to say the least...
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:21   Link #462
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I'm going to call BS on that one. "an illusion created by our brains"...what sort of nonsense is that? Going chemical reaction to explain human behavior so simplistic that it defeats the purpose of living and the meaning of being alive. Might as well be an inaminate object if one is going to go around thinking in those term. Simply being able to make a choice...any choice, would point to free will. Being unable to make a choice, means no free will. And given the same situation every time, will not always give the same results. Entirely because the same person will be able to make a different choice. The idea is that we make the future, not the future makes us.

The problem is testing these theories. Simply put, you can't. For either argument. Because after you've done one test the test subject will have a memory of the event and thus can rethink the results. Even in gaming this happens. Though it is possible to present a similar situation and get a different result because the mind thought of something else this time around. Second guessing so to speak.

Now you put in time travellers. There is a set future. The future is making the past....or are they? Because so much of Mikuru's speech is "classified information", we don't really know if the future is set. If she's from one possible future, or if there are many possible futures. That they are attempting to keep the timeline on track suggests that there is only one, but that it is taking them an effort to make their own future implys that there are other option, and thus free will comes into play again. The difference here is not that the humans don't have free will, it is more the case that the future is playing the role of suggestion and mediator...keeping what they know intact, because to them it has already happened. Unfortunately, some results seem to show they don't quite know what they are doing, and thus it is entirely possible they are incorrect, and they are in fact just one possible timeline, and not the only future out there. That there may be a group out there trying to disrupt the timeline would suggest that there are more than one timeline to start with. If one can't change the past, and one knows one can't changed the past because there is proof it can't be changed....they try to change it? It would be illogical to make an attempt. However an illogical human could use free will to attempt to alter time. He might still fail, but that he made the choice to try is a sign of free will. Predestination...you did it because you were meant to do it, does not mean you didn't have the choice to do it or not do it. One chooses to do something, they made that choice freely. That the outcome was known to someone else is irrelevant. Also there are hints that some things Mikuru (both) knows change as things happen. She knows A, B, and C. But doesn't know about D until after the fact. This means that it could be possible that time is still being written. Mikuru (both) being from the future, knows what is suppose to happen before it happens when they are in the past. However it is entirely possible that as events change, so do their memories of the events. Basically creating the future. We may see more of this...if the anime ever does get to the events around and of Book 7. (Or better yet, the split in book 9)

(The changing of clothes and events done during the various Endless Eights would also point to free will. While the point that the anime version of the clothing may not be canon, Yuki's description of other events done or not done, is canon. Also the very event that ends the Endless Eight suggests free will. Kyon did something on his own. Given that he's been in exactly the same situations, over and over again, even remembering that he's being in that situation over and over again without resolution, that final push to breaking the loop suggests he thought of something on his own. Freely. That it pissed Haruhi off that he made a choice for the brigade members outside her say so also points to free will. This is what I was suggesting earlier...for clarification purposes.)


On a related note....if you don't believe that, why are you arguing for it?
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2009-09-09 at 04:33.
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:26   Link #463
Akka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Say someone from the (set) future somehow has absolute knowledge of every single event that is going to occur.

...Does anyone in the past have any real choices anymore?
You're using a paradox-laden fictionnal example working entirely on hypothetical situations that we don't have any idea how they are really supposed to even exist in the first place... Hard to draw any hard conclusion with that.

I could just as easily use the Back to the Future way of handling this : his knowledge will change on the fly according to what happens in the present and how it changes the future.
Yay, I proved that free will exists
Quote:
Although that's just a thought experiment. No knowledge is perfect. Still, yes, Chaos Theory (the Butterfly Effect thingy) would imply that yes, wearing a red shirt instead of a blue shirt on a particular day in August would actually have some sort of effect on the future. (He might get shot, for example.)
"could", not "would". The basis of the Chaos Theory is precisely that it can't be predicted, so it may have an effect, or it may not.
Quote:
Oh, and about people being responsible for their actions, yes, if we assume that free will doesn't really exist and people are, in fact, just products of their environment and genetics and that society is partially to blame for criminals being criminals, and for the definition of criminal and the concepts of good and evil existing at all, we might actually have to re-evaluate our core values and justice system and realize how deeply flawed and damaging they really are. We might actually have to think.

But that won't happen because people are silly.
Err... Quite contradictory here. If people don't have free will, how can you blame them for thinking in a way and not another ? They don't have a choice !

You're basically arguing that people should think (thus demonstrate free will) if they don't have free will. Mmh...
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:30   Link #464
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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
The author himself has directed some ep, and he's an advisor for the serie, so I doubt they really have "no idea what they're doing"...
No, they're total retards who have no idea what they're doing. No one except a total retard would air the same episode eight times.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
*snip*
As for the rest of your post, I can't prove it, you can't disprove it, and I can't prove my assertion in turn.

I don't have to prove it! It's a Devil's Proof!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
*snip*
Yes, I am just a soulless mental construct of my biology and my feelings are only a coping mechanism. I do believe that, to some extent. But not totally as that makes us all uncomfortable.

Sociology has really done wonders for my views on humanity, I swear...

Also we're operating on completely different definitions of Free Will here. I say that the opportunity to make choices doesn't matter because either people will always make the same choices or the choice will lead to the same outcome regardless, and you say the fact that choice even exists proves free will.

...I don't exactly see where you're coming from here, but we'll never convince each other of anything, so let's not go any further.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
"could", not "would". The basis of the Chaos Theory is precisely that it can't be predicted, so it may have an effect, or it may not.
I operate on the Pulp Fiction Micheal Crichton definition of Chaos Theory which is something along the lines of ANY COMPLEX SYSTEM WILL EVENTUALLY FALL ON ITS ASS A BUTTERFLY FLAPPING ITS WINGS IN CHINA CREATES A TORNADO IN ARKANSAS SMALL LITTLE ERRORS BUILD UP OVER TIME FRACTALS.

Something like that.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
Err... Quite contradictory here. If people don't have free will, how can you blame them for thinking in a way and not another ? They don't have a choice !

You're basically arguing that people should think (thus demonstrate free will) if they don't have free will. Mmh...
Wait what? Thinking and free will aren't exactly mutually exclusive. And that wasn't really supposed to be taken seriously anyway. I was just pointing out how our society operates on assumptions that things are true when they actually aren't.

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Originally Posted by Akka View Post
You're using a paradox-laden fictionnal example working entirely on hypothetical situations that we don't have any idea how they are really supposed to even exist in the first place... Hard to draw any hard conclusion with that.

I could just as easily use the Back to the Future way of handling this : his knowledge will change on the fly according to what happens in the present and how it changes the future.
Yay, I proved that free will exists
But that makes no scientific sense.

At least I have Novikov backing me up. Right, Novikov?

...Right?


DON'T LEAVE ME
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:40   Link #465
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Haruhi's mental state is easy....she's a teenaged girl of the age of 15. If she was any younger, she'd seem even less human. Just ask any American Middle and High School teacher. Between the ages of 11 and 17...boys and girls are inhuman....boys between 11 and 14 are suppose to be the worse. Teenagers in general believe they know everything. Any strangeness in Haruhi's personality can be explained very, very simply....she's a teenager.
Off-topic: Being a 15 year-old male, I will say that, in my experiences, the average high school boy acts like more of a dipshit compared to the average middle school boy. I don't ever recall middle school kids doing NEARLY as much idiotic crap as the high school ones do; then again, that may have more to do with the fact that I live in Florida than anything else.
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:44   Link #466
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A teacher considers the middle school kids more inhuman because they are at that age where the hormones just begin to fire (causing huge amounts of confusion and in the boys aggression), they don't want to be treated like kids anymore, except when they do want to be treated like kids...which causes even more headaches. TO top it off, Middle School is usually where the school course structure changes, thus causing more problems in adapting to their situation.


As for everything else...it is getting late...the mind can only take so much at a time...so this is called for at this time....


So. Many. Uses.
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:45   Link #467
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post

As for Sigh(s)... he was pushed really, really far over those past few days. Anyone would have (tried to) hit her at that point. That's not free will, that's a direct consequence.
I strongly disagree. I've read plenty of blogs saying that people think that Kyon should not have thrown that punch. I myself don't think that he should have. If I was in his shoes, I would not have thrown that punch.

Kyon made a choice there.
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:49   Link #468
Kaisos Erranon
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Given Kyon's rather repressed personality, the events leading up to that situation, and the simple fact that the girl he had a crush on was drugged and forced to make out with a guy he dislikes by a girl whose behavior is an increasing source of aggravation for him, I don't think he would have done anything different.

Hell, I'd have hit her too, but I'm fairly aggressive.
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:50   Link #469
Ithekro
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A side note...this discussion does seem more in character with Season 2006 discussions.
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:51   Link #470
Kaisos Erranon
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A side note...this discussion does seem more in character with season one discussions.
Yes. That is because we are back in actual content instead of stupidity.
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:59   Link #471
Akka
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No, they're total retards who have no idea what they're doing. No one except a total retard would air the same episode eight times.
Well, I'm forced to agree here :x
Let's say that E8 and K-On were simply the Sigh of KyoAni. Hopefully, they'll get better ^^
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Yes, I am just a soulless mental construct of my biology and my feelings are only a coping mechanism. I do believe that, to some extent. But not totally as that makes us all uncomfortable.
Funningly, I tend to think that's the opposite : it's believing in the ABSENCE of free will that is a coping mechanism. Because it's easier to not take responsability and to be comfortable in the knowledge that "anyway it'll be like it's supposed to be", while knowing that everything is subject to change and to unstability is much more frightening for some people, as is the idea that whatever they do, they will have to take responsability.
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Also we're operating on completely different definitions of Free Will here. I say that the opportunity to make choices doesn't matter because either people will always make the same choices or the choice will lead to the same outcome regardless, and you say the fact that choice even exists proves free will.
The definition of Free Will is the ability to chose actions by yourselve. Not that the decisions will change the world.
All the choice leading to the same outcome doesn't mean there is no free will, just that the universe is self-correcting. If you were able to chose and act differently, it means you were able to exercise free will. Nobody said that the ability to chose directly transcribed into the power to make it succeed.
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Wait what? Thinking and free will aren't exactly mutually exclusive. And that wasn't really supposed to be taken seriously anyway. I was just pointing out how our society operates on assumptions that things are true when they actually aren't.
If free will doesn't exist, then blame doesn't either, because you can't judge someone who has no choice in what he does. So even if someone is silly, you can't blame him for it.
If you blame him for it, you means that he should think differently, and hence you recognize the existence of free will.
Even if not taken seriously, it highlight more the flaw in your reasoning than in society's reasoning
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Old 2009-09-09, 04:59   Link #472
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Given Kyon's rather repressed personality, the events leading up to that situation, and the simple fact that the girl he had a crush on was drugged and forced to make out with a guy he dislikes by a girl whose behavior is an increasing source of aggravation for him, I don't think he would have done anything different.

Hell, I'd have hit her too, but I'm fairly aggressive.
But that's it... Kyon is rarely, if ever, shown to be aggressive.

As such, his punch is a moment of him choosing to do something that goes against his personality. He's been driven to such a state of anger by the stimuli that you've alluded to that he's going against his typical character, and hence makes a choice contrary to it. But it's not as if he throws his punch as some sort of automatic reaction (like a leg lifting up when the knee is bopped)... it's a gradual build in anger that finally persuades him to throw his typical approach to the wind, and throw a punch at Haruhi.

Kaisos... you can't deny that Kyon's characterization is that of a cautious, calm, cool, and collected one. His apathy is, frankly, legendary.
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Old 2009-09-09, 05:05   Link #473
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And no, Kaisos is not allowed to play Beatrice in this debate...that is Haruhi's job now. So no denying in red because it won't help you this time.

(I suppse you can play Battler and use the blue though....but not gold...only a moderator would have that kind of power here...so to speak )
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Old 2009-09-09, 05:29   Link #474
Kaisos Erranon
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Apparently we're all operating under different definitions of free will here, so yes, your definition of free will can and does exist in the Haruhiverse. I concede that.

However, no choice that is made actually matters as the future is going to play out in the exact same way regardless, so...

(Also, whenever I talk about anything to do with sociology I'm usually just parroting my textbook and/or teacher. Blame the course material for my increasing cynicism, assuming you think that blame can, of course, exist. The point was that, like I said, society operates by assuming things that simply aren't true, like how people society deems as evil need to be punished aaaaah further tangents)

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Kaisos... you can't deny that Kyon's characterization is that of a cautious, calm, cool, and collected one. His apathy is, frankly, legendary.
I still think a lot of that is a mask for him, as he seems obsessed with being 'normal', and readers of later books will know why...
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Old 2009-09-09, 05:39   Link #475
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Apparently we're all operating under different definitions of free will here, so yes, your definition of free will can and does exist in the Haruhiverse. I concede that.

However, no choice that is made actually matters as the future is going to play out in the exact same way regardless, so...
The fact that people from the future take such a great care with "classified information" and correcting possible changes, seems to prove the opposite
Quote:
(Also, whenever I talk about anything to do with sociology I'm usually just parroting my textbook and/or teacher. Blame the course material for my increasing cynicism, assuming you think that blame can, of course exists. The point was that, like I said, society operates by assuming things that simply aren't true, like how people society deems as evil need to be punished aaaaah further tangents)
You may mix things here.
Society operates by assuming things necessary for it to works. It's not really a point of being "true" or not, especially when you talk about abstract ideas, but rather a prerequisite.
For example, if you do not punish criminal, you don't discourage crime, hence crime rise and society collapse. The fact that criminal should be punished or not is not really (in this case) a point about "true" or "not true", but simply a necessity to have a society - in other words, it's not that society decides "we should punish evil people", but simply that no society which doesn't have this value can actually rise.

On the more abstract point, you say that "it's not true", but I'm afraid that, as I said earlier, it's not sufficient to actually, well, MAKE it true/not true.
I do think that evil MUST be punished. You say it's false. Well, I'm not convinced. Convince me !
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Old 2009-09-09, 05:40   Link #476
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Glossing over the last six pages in ~10 miinutes...

No wonder why you all are going around in circles. How are you supposed to come to terms when one party (the one arguing against Kaisos) doesn't take the time travel plot into context? When you talk about free will in time travel, you are actually referring to the ability of being able to change the future. Currently, in the novel, anime, manga and Tanigawa Nagaru's plot drafts (included to emphasize everything that can be remotely deemed canon), there has never been an instance that a character has expressed free will based on the aforementioned definition.

Also note that the Haruhiverse adapts the Novikov self-consistency principle in its time travel related plotlines. The gist of this principle is that:
Quote:
if an event exists that would give rise to a paradox, or to any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero.
As you can see, it is expected that any character in the Haruhiverse, sans perhaps Haruhi herself (whose powers are not bound by logic and the laws of physics), would be unable to make any changes to the current active timeline. Yes, they have free will in the sense that they are able to make decisions spontaneously, but bluntly speaking, these "decisions" were already mapped out by entropic patterns and thus whatever event that occurs is inevitable as these were already determined (to take this to a more quantum level) by the random positions of electrons in molecules' electron clouds.

And I won't even touch on the sociopath debate, as all I see are people giving textbook symptoms and treating it as an incurable disease. This goes for mostly everywhere else that this pops up in these parts too.
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Old 2009-09-09, 05:57   Link #477
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The debate of whether human have freewill or not has been discussing for almost 2000 years (yeah dated back to Marcus Aurelius). You guys're not gonna go anywhere like this, trust me (unless we have a philosophical super genius with us).....

I believe freewill does not exist. I can prove that you are wrong when you say "for sure it does exist", but i won't be able to prove that it does not

@Ithekro: Endless Eight does not prove free will exist. Haruhi only need to think:
"Oww..... summer ended. I want more.... Repeat the exact same things will be boring, but it was fun and I don't want to end yet. I wish we can get to do those *make up number* 15520 more times *laugh*"

Or something like that.... and we can solve Kyon and various clothes problems. We can even say Haruhi's the only one has freewill out of that bunch(since she's God), and she has a change of mind when the counter tick up to 15520.. She's responsible for all the changes from time to time as well
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Old 2009-09-09, 06:18   Link #478
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
No wonder why you all are going around in circles. How are you supposed to come to terms when one party (the one arguing against Kaisos) doesn't take the time travel plot into context?
Actually, it has been taken into context several times, the last one being in the post exactly above yours, with a paragraph on its own (so, quite hard to miss...) :
"The fact that people from the future take such a great care with "classified information" and correcting possible changes, seems to prove the opposite"
Quote:
When you talk about free will in time travel, you are actually referring to the ability of being able to change the future. Currently, in the novel, anime, manga and Tanigawa Nagaru's plot drafts (included to emphasize everything that can be remotely deemed canon), there has never been an instance that a character has expressed free will based on the aforementioned definition.

Also note that the Haruhiverse adapts the Novikov self-consistency principle in its time travel related plotlines. The gist of this principle is that:
As you can see, it is expected that any character in the Haruhiverse, sans perhaps Haruhi herself (whose powers are not bound by logic and the laws of physics), would be unable to make any changes to the current active timeline. Yes, they have free will in the sense that they are able to make decisions spontaneously, but bluntly speaking, these "decisions" were already mapped out by entropic patterns and thus whatever event that occurs is inevitable as these were already determined (to take this to a more quantum level) by the random positions of electrons in molecules' electron clouds.
I have not read the novels, and this is a thread about the anime, so I'll keep it strictly about the anime.
And in it, there were never any argument that I remember which stated or showed it was IMPOSSIBLE to change the timeline. It hasn't happened, but it wasn't shown nor argued no possible.
And again, the fact that there is so many "classified informations" and the like, tend to show that there is a risk, or they wouldn't bother.
Quote:
And I won't even touch on the sociopath debate, as all I see are people giving textbook symptoms and treating it as an incurable disease. This goes for mostly everywhere else that this pops up in these parts too.
Actually, psychopathologies are generally uncurable - though there is treatment, they never totally go away.
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Old 2009-09-09, 06:20   Link #479
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
No wonder why you all are going around in circles. How are you supposed to come to terms when one party (the one arguing against Kaisos) doesn't take the time travel plot into context? When you talk about free will in time travel, you are actually referring to the ability of being able to change the future. Currently, in the novel, anime, manga and Tanigawa Nagaru's plot drafts (included to emphasize everything that can be remotely deemed canon), there has never been an instance that a character has expressed free will based on the aforementioned definition.
Except as others have already said, the Time Travellers are doing their hardest to not change anything at all from recorded history. So much so that
Spoiler for novel spoiler:

If what you said is true, then there is no need for any time traveller to worry about paradoxes; they can come and go as they please, say whatever they want, and do whatever they want. But instead, what we clearly see is that Time Travelers are terrified of even the most remote possibility of changing history. So if they fear changing history, it must theoretically be possible. An entire book is devoted to Kyon participating in Time Traveler's duties; that is, manipulating events to match future history, often with absolutely no logical basis.

The most glaring example?
Spoiler for novel spoiler:
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Old 2009-09-09, 07:15   Link #480
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Actually, it has been taken into context several times, the last one being in the post exactly above yours, with a paragraph on its own (so, quite hard to miss...) :
Check our respective post's timestamps. I didn't bother to edit my post, since still the majority of the posts on this topic in the previous pages have not done so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If what you said is true, then there is no need for any time traveller to worry about paradoxes; they can come and go as they please, say whatever they want, and do whatever they want. But instead, what we clearly see is that Time Travelers are terrified of even the most remote possibility of changing history. So if they fear changing history, it must theoretically be possible. An entire book is devoted to Kyon participating in Time Traveler's duties; that is, manipulating events to match future history, often with absolutely no logical basis.
I see. However, this is where we go into highly speculative stuff, even in-series. Do the time travelers know that they cannot change the past? What are the consequences of making a big fuss in the past? Would it affect their present, or will it get autocorrected by the self-consistency principle? What are these classified information, why are they classified as such, and how will their revelation affect the actions of a person living in the past? Arguably, even the time travelers themselves have vague [theoretical] answers to these questions, since an event where the past was changed has not yet been revealed [to have a non-zero probability].

The way I see it, there are two reasons why the time travelers choose to manipulate the past:
  1. They do not trust the self-consistency principle enough, and thus choose to meddle in the past to ensure their current state of existence. By doing so, they create closed timelike curves (CTC. Learn it. Live it. Love it. ).
  2. They have relied on the principle in their past time travel adventures, but when they encountered the Time Quake and thus, Haruhi, they have become terrified of her ability and subsequently lost trust on the self-consistency principle, leading to (1) above.
Explanations for the motives behind the events in the spoiler tags can be attributed to the above two. Plus, there's the fact that the mind is terrified of the unknown. Well, would you risk your entire society's existence and the timeline's integrity on some physics paper that hasn't been given concrete proof? Certainly not -- even more if you don't even know how you're gonna get hit.

And there is a reason why a time traveler should worry about paradoxes even with the self-consistency principle. Their existence (or patience and sanity) is at stake after all -- who knows how the timeline will correct itself (at the expense of the time traveler perhaps?).
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