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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 37 20.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 47 26.26%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 41 22.91%
7 out of 10 : Good 27 15.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 18 10.06%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 1.68%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.12%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 1.12%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.12%
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-09-11, 01:59   Link #241
plzd0ntkeelme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
I never said that any of those were true, so they aren't "my assumptions". I just said that those were possible. If any one of those guesses is true, then your 'interpretation' is simply mistaken.

Pretty pointless to call something a 'hilarious' inconsistency if you don't even fully understand the story here. The entire point of this series is figuring out why apparent contradictions actually make sense. If you're unwilling to do that, then you won't enjoy the best parts of the series.

Let me be clear, since additional information from the VN shows that this is true: there is an intended reason for Genji's switch in behavior, one that the author thought of before writing this game and which he intended to use as an indirect clue for the readers.




I'm pretty sure I made it clear that it was the previous section, "Rosa Musou" where she was fighting the goats, that Battler was talking about. Personally, if I saw dozens of goat monsters trying to kill me, I very much doubt I'd grab a handbag and try to whack them with it, even if it was to protect someone dear to me.
If you think Rosa's actions there are "ordinary" or "less than extremely brave", then I'm afraid you've been watching way too much Shounen anime
Yes they are possible but they are still assumptions. Just like my interpretation. There are limitless possible assumptions that anybody can come up with this series. And I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but, as I said, my interpretation is not the truth so it could very well be wrong.
And if you're going to talk about the things in the game after this point, do it with someone else. I don't want to get spoiled.

I haven't watch any shounen anime for years now so that's just a baseless assumption. If the battle with the goats is what Battler was referring to then he should use different words, such as fighting skills. This is the definition of perseverance from dictionary, "be persistent, refuse to stop". Rosa submit at the end so that's not the word for her.
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Old 2009-09-11, 02:01   Link #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
I don't see how this would 'only' be a problem to those comparing it to VN. Things just happen so quickly one after the other. Things like why Genji is outside to find the corpses. How did Rosa claim that Battler puts the letter when they all just enter the room. I think you don't need the VN to find this ep to be quite rushed. And by budget I also mean the animation which I think doesn't even apply in the VN.
But then again, many things happened equally rushed in the VN.
We don't know that much more about Genji finding the corpses
Spoiler for apart from a small thing:

And it really was an equally strange moment when they found the letter in the VN.

It IS suspicious that Rosa just jumped to the conclusion it had to be Battler, it IS suspicious that the letter was there in the first place.

In my opinion the finale of Episode 2 is mainly there for one thing, to actually destroy the reader/viewer and make him surrender to the magic on the island.
Therefore it has to be disjointed, so that you only perceive what 'Beatrice' thinks would make you doubt, stumble and fall.
Like Bernkastel said at the end, it was 'a one sided game' and therefore, from a point of logical detective work, rather boring. Like the title said, it was the 'Turn of the Golden Witch' and she used that turn for her full advantage as it seems.

Quote:
I haven't watch any shounen anime for years now so that's just a baseless assumption. If the battle with the goats is what Battler was referring to then he should use different words, such as fighting skills. This is the definition of perseverance from dictionary, "be persistent, refuse to stop". Rosa submit at the end so that's not the word for her.
Oh but she DID refuse to stop.
If we actually believe what we saw, she and Maria were the last human survivors on Rokkenjima and it was all because she 'refused to stop'. She didn't even hold back from accusing people near to her, just to fight against what was happening on the island.
For me, this is what Battler meant with perseverance. The fact that she fought until her (supposed) death, unlike his gameboard self who gave up for example.

It is a whole other thing to give up when you are presented with a situation you cannot escape from, especially when a devilish witch forces you to eat the head of your daughter...I think it's perserverance that she even made it to this point.
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Old 2009-09-11, 02:19   Link #243
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
Yes they are possible but they are still assumptions. Just like my interpretation. There are limitless possible assumptions that anybody can come up with this series. And I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but, as I said, my interpretation is not the truth so it could very well be wrong.
And if you're going to talk about the things in the game after this point, do it with someone else. I don't want to get spoiled.

I haven't watch any shounen anime for years now so that's just a baseless assumption. If the battle with the goats is what Battler was referring to then he should use different words, such as fighting skills. This is the definition of perseverance from dictionary, "be persistent, refuse to stop". Rosa submit at the end so that's not the word for her.
*sigh*, I wonder why I'm still doing this, but you can persevere and then give up in the end. She refused to stop fighting the goats for a long time, until the very end when they cornered her. She went above and beyond what could be expected from a normal person, and she did it for the sake of her daughter in the end.

Perseverance doesn't mean you never give up once in your entire life. If that were the definition, no one has ever persevered before. But she was willing to struggle against hopeless odds, even though that struggle was (apparently) in vain in the end. "To continue despite difficulties, opposition, or discouragement" says Webster's thesaurus. Yeah, she continued for quite a long time, judging by the fact that she managed to wipe out even one giant goat monster

Battler doesn't give a damn about her "fighting skills". That's a shounen word. What he cares about is the fact that she didn't give up against overwhelming odds; here, and earlier on in the episode. If you can't understand that, then you probably won't be able to understand this series.

This shouldn't be an argument at all, seriously.

As for the Genji thing, it's obvious you haven't listened to a word I said. Oh well, ending pointless debate.

Edit: Well, I'll try one last time.

If Genji's change of heart was a plot hole, it's such a gaping one that it should be painfully obvious. Because this is a mystery, we have to assume that there is some kind of hidden plot below the surface. There has to be some reason for the magic scenes, and some reason for Genji to follow Beatrice.
Until we know why he serves Beatrice, we cannot judge how realistic his decisions are.

Basically, what I'm saying is that if you stop thinking and just assume everything you don't understand is a production mistake, it would be literally impossible for the creators to hide clues in the story. Both Higurashi and Umineko are founded on these clues, and if you can't stand the simple fact that you don't know the whole story yet, then you should quit watching Umineko and switch to a simpler genre.

Thanks, it was fun
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Old 2009-09-11, 02:22   Link #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Here is the circle from episode II-VI:



I think it was supposed to be this one from episode I-IV:



The first one is about breaking bonds and the second one is about seperation I think.
Check out the website I posted earlier on. It should tell you all the symbols meanings.
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Old 2009-09-11, 02:28   Link #245
plzd0ntkeelme
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Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
But then again, many things happened equally rushed in the VN.
We don't know that much more about Genji finding the corpses
Spoiler for apart from a small thing:

And it really was an equally strange moment when they found the letter in the VN.

It IS suspicious that Rosa just jumped to the conclusion it had to be Battler, it IS suspicious that the letter was there in the first place.

In my opinion the finale of Episode 2 is mainly there for one thing, to actually destroy the reader/viewer and make him surrender to the magic on the island.
Therefore it has to be disjointed, so that you only perceive what 'Beatrice' thinks would make you doubt, stumble and fall.
Like Bernkastel said at the end, it was 'a one sided game' and therefore, from a point of logical detective work, rather boring. Like the title said, it was the 'Turn of the Golden Witch' and she used that turn for her full advantage as it seems.



Oh but she DID refuse to stop.
If we actually believe what we saw, she and Maria were the last human survivors on Rokkenjima and it was all because she 'refused to stop'. She didn't even hold back from accusing people near to her, just to fight against what was happening on the island.
For me, this is what Battler meant with perseverance. The fact that she fought until her (supposed) death, unlike his gameboard self who gave up for example.

It is a whole other thing to give up when you are presented with a situation you cannot escape from, especially when a devilish witch forces you to eat the head of your daughter...I think it's perserverance that she even made it to this point.
If things are equally rushed in the VN, that's beside the point. My point is even without playing the VN, people can still see that this ep is rushed. Although that spoiler you just mention will be very handy for the anime pacing.

The word that you're looking for is a strong will or bravery. She has the will and bravery to fight and "survive" till the end. But when someone persevered, that means that person never give up their beliefs through anything till the person dies. Rosa submit to Beatrice at the end so the word perseverance does not apply in this situation.
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Old 2009-09-11, 02:30   Link #246
k//eternal
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Actually, considering she was killed by the goats, she certainly never gave up until she died.
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Old 2009-09-11, 02:55   Link #247
plzd0ntkeelme
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
*sigh*, I wonder why I'm still doing this, but you can persevere and then give up in the end. She refused to stop fighting the goats for a long time, until the very end when they cornered her. She went above and beyond what could be expected from a normal person, and she did it for the sake of her daughter in the end.

Perseverance doesn't mean you never give up once in your entire life. If that were the definition, no one has ever persevered before. But she was willing to struggle against hopeless odds, even though that struggle was (apparently) in vain in the end. "To continue despite difficulties, opposition, or discouragement" says Webster's thesaurus. Yeah, she continued for quite a long time, judging by the fact that she managed to wipe out even one giant goat monster

Battler doesn't give a damn about her "fighting skills". That's a shounen word. What he cares about is the fact that she didn't give up against overwhelming odds; here, and earlier on in the episode. If you can't understand that, then you probably won't be able to understand this series.

This shouldn't be an argument at all, seriously.

As for the Genji thing, it's obvious you haven't listened to a word I said. Oh well, ending pointless debate.

Edit: Well, I'll try one last time.

If Genji's change of heart was a plot hole, it's such a gaping one that it should be painfully obvious. Because this is a mystery, we have to assume that there is some kind of hidden plot below the surface. There has to be some reason for the magic scenes, and some reason for Genji to follow Beatrice.
Until we know why he serves Beatrice, we cannot judge how realistic his decisions are.

Basically, what I'm saying is that if you stop thinking and just assume everything you don't understand is a production mistake, it would be literally impossible for the creators to hide clues in the story. Both Higurashi and Umineko are founded on these clues, and if you can't stand the simple fact that you don't know the whole story yet, then you should quit watching Umineko and switch to a simpler genre.
You contradict yourself. As you said, perseverance means continuing despite difficulties.... The keyword is 'continuing'. Give up at the end DOES NOT mean continuing.
I don't know how more wrong you can get with the next paragraphs. Lotsa people die from tortures especially in war without giving any information till the end. And by the end doesn't necessarily mean death. For example many instances where someone refuse to give information despite being tortured until that person got rescued, in a way the person has persevered till the end.

Wow, so you have to always assume that there is no production mistake at all? Follow whatever rules you want. As far as I'm concerned, there is no rule here where you can't criticize the show's production/writing.
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Old 2009-09-11, 02:57   Link #248
plzd0ntkeelme
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Actually, considering she was killed by the goats, she certainly never gave up until she died.
Well if you consider the whole cannibal thing at the end is just another of those 'symbols' and never actually happen then you should ignore my posts so far.
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Old 2009-09-11, 03:00   Link #249
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Originally Posted by Belum_nabum View Post
Check out the website I posted earlier on. It should tell you all the symbols meanings.
The meanings of both symbols were made clear in both the VN and the anime.

The screenshots I posted just show the mistake which was made.
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Old 2009-09-11, 03:09   Link #250
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Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
Well if you consider the whole cannibal thing at the end is just another of those 'symbols' and never actually happen then you should ignore my posts so far.
even if "the cannibal thing never actually happen", they still die.
It's not like, "woo, we see them got eaten, but WAIT! THEY ARE STILL ALIVE!"

the distraction is the way they die, but the truth remains that they still die, and by a very gruesome way judging by their remains.

Rosa did fight till her death. If she's still alive she wouldn't be in the Tea Party.
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Old 2009-09-11, 03:22   Link #251
plzd0ntkeelme
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Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
even if "the cannibal thing never actually happen", they still die.
It's not like, "woo, we see them got eaten, but WAIT! THEY ARE STILL ALIVE!"

the distraction is the way they die, but the truth remains that they still die, and by a very gruesome way judging by their remains.

Rosa did fight till her death. If she's still alive she wouldn't be in the Tea Party.
Well, as I said death does not necessarily mean the end. If you consider the whole event of her acknowledging Beatrice as the witch as an actual event, my point still stand.
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Old 2009-09-11, 03:52   Link #252
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Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme View Post
You contradict yourself. As you said, perseverance means continuing despite difficulties.... The keyword is 'continuing'. Give up at the end DOES NOT mean continuing.
I don't know how more wrong you can get with the next paragraphs. Lotsa people die from tortures especially in war without giving any information till the end. And by the end doesn't necessarily mean death. For example many instances where someone refuse to give information despite being tortured until that person got rescued, in a way the person has persevered till the end.
Think about the definition of 'continue'. It does not mean 'continue for eternity' or 'continue until you win'. It means to 'continue', for some period of time.

Websters definition for persist: to go on resolutely or stubbornly in spite of opposition, importunity, or warning.
It does not say "to go on until you are successful or die" anywhere there. It does not say "to overcome your obstacle". If you're going to argue about the English language, learn what words mean first. The very fact that you use the phrase "persevered till the end" makes my point plain.

Also, the meaning of 'persevere' means nothing in this case because the line was written in Japanese.
The point is that Battler was inspired by the lengths Rosa was willing to go to before she gave up. That's all that is important, and you cannot make the argument that she did nothing extraordinary.

Quote:
Wow, so you have to always assume that there is no production mistake at all? Follow whatever rules you want. As far as I'm concerned, there is no rule here where you can't criticize the show's production/writing.
You are free to hold whatever opinion you wish, but when your opinion has no evidence at all to support it, it's usually a good idea to rethink it.
I didn't say there were no production mistakes, please read my posts.

Let me ask you a question. Why does Genji serve Beatrice? Does she pay him? Did she threaten to kill him? You have no idea, and neither do I. So when his behavior changes, how can we question it? We don't even know why he acted that way in the first place.

You say his motives change, but you don't even know what his motives are.



By the way, I'm not saying all this just to disagree with plzd0ntkeelme If the reader doesn't have a little faith in the storyteller, it's impossible to tell a mystery story. Take what you see with a grain of salt, but realize that there is a larger story happening in the background, and that finding clues about that is the real point of this anime's genre.
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Old 2009-09-11, 04:26   Link #253
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I get the impression things are heading towards more and more Meta as the story progresses. Real world stuff to give Battler clues, and Meta world to prove or disprove things....in red.
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Old 2009-09-11, 07:14   Link #254
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I don't get the point of this discussion about Battler using the wrong word. There are quite a lot of facts that point out how Battler isn't very "rational", he often shows contradictory behaviors and sometimes look even hypocrite. And this remained consistent through the 5 arcs.

There are a few examples of him making flawed lines of reasoning. For example in Ep1 he didn't know yet that Nanjo was there and he thought that the 12th seat at the dining table was prepared for "Rosa's husband" even if he wasn't supposed to be there.

Also Battler sucks at math. He first said that that Kinzo became the head in 1923 and then made a huge fortune in 1950. After that he said that was pretty impressive that Kinzo was able to restore the great Ushiromiya's wealth in 20 years.

Now what Battler meant to say in this situation is that he was inspired by how Rosa fought against the goats, and if you consider that instance and that instance alone, then Rosa certainly persevered till the end. She kept shooting at the goats even if she knew she was greatly outnumbered. But until the very end she kept firing. This is called perseverance. Fighting when you know there is a high risk of death is bravery. Fighting when you know you'll die for sure is martyrdom. Fighting when you know you'll die for sure and it is completely futile is perseverance.

The fact that Battler then completely disregarded the fact that later Rosa in the metaworld gave up on the witch, is pretty consistent with Battler's irrational behavior.

Pretty much like when he said "show me a witch and I'll believe in her".

Ah and about Genji. plzd0ntkeelme do you remember how Shannon decided to "resist" Beatrice on ep7? So if you think that it is Beatrice's wish for people to accept their demise without a fight you are totally wrong. Beatrice doesn't consider Genji as her minion or an accomplice, so Genji doesn't need to help her, he's just supposed to comply to Beatrice's wishes. And if Beatrice sends a zombie Kanon to him, he's supposed to fight it for Beatrice's own entertainment.
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Old 2009-09-11, 07:24   Link #255
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It was a bit rushed but I really liked this episode. Beatrice got her awesome moment with George and Shannon ("As if I'd let him finish saying that!"), Rosa and Maria had their moment, shotgun Rosa got to say my favorite line ("Lay one finger on my daughter and I'll teach you just how tepid the hell you crawled out of really was"), and Battler even got to try out being furniture. The goats were the goats at the end and fun was had by all.

The negatives, not so much. The pacing was a bit breathless, there was certainly enough material here we could have stretched things out into two episodes. Maria's weird facial contortions reached a new high here too, they're definitely overdoing it. I did actually rather like her banquet scene though.

And finally, on to the *really* good stuff.
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Old 2009-09-11, 08:56   Link #256
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Quite late, but finally watched without much distracting activities:

This episode was... well kinda average to me.
-For one, as people probably mentioned, there are mistakes that don't make any sense (barricaded parlor door magically became normal, last magical circle screwed up etc).

-What was however kinda average was the pacing: they dramatically went so slow on the last 2 episodes that they really just squeezed the rest. The start was already a big momentum break: instead of going for a climatic "end" with George and Shannon in the last episode, they just cut the episode before it last week and started with a much slower pace, which really doesn't help the first time watcher I would say (1 week later, I doubt people would be under the effect of Gohda's brave last stand and brutal death).
Funnily enough, I think they could just end this scene with Beatrice "You think I will let you?!" then black screen. That would certainly convey how "it went bad", leaving a sense of uncertainty about how Shannon and George died, but also a good way to cut down precious seconds for other scenes.
The whole "wolf" thing with Battler left something to be desired: the lead up.

-Suit Beatrice gained 1-2 cup it seems

-The end of Episode 2 was probably the best part of this episode. At least they did a good job about the banquet, though I wonder since when Battler was so.. thin. I was expecting him to be rather solidly built, but when he is slammed to the ground, it seems he was in some drastic denutrition state

-As for Rosa Musou... well, the length wasn't that of an issue, but rather the execution. I know it is kinda too late, since they did it with Kanon already, but the goats are just cannon fodder instead of being the "tanking grunts". So they prone to vanish at the slightest damage, which just takes away the whole brawl and desperate aspect of it (and since they also removed the struggle and Rosa's fall, it doesn't look like she is for a losing battle).
In theory, it is possible to keep that scene as intense as in the VN within a mere minute, but it is everything about execution instead.

-Now, what annoyed me the most: the tea party. As much as I can see they wanted to keep the disturbing and gruesome aspect of it as a whole, they just went too far with Maria. For one, I'm again surprised they could make worse and worse expressions for her (chapel and that scene), but they mangled completely her intent. Sure she was willing to sacrifice herself, but she wasn't going like a psycho "eat me!". Thus, she was looking plainly demented, period. So, when the goats were trying to push Maria's head in Rosa's mouth, I couldn't help but laugh dry at this.

-As for the ura tea party, it just got the short end of a stick. No, the absent "nii-pa", fanservice wasn't the issue at all (good grief, I would just be even more annoyed if they put it instead of more relevant critical detail). Rather, they just introduced Lambda for the kicks, they didn't really show her "hidden" objective but also her tips. Thus, it is again to the detriment to the first watchers who will have hard time to figure "what is that damn pink loli witch doing here?".
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Old 2009-09-11, 09:09   Link #257
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I'm assuming for one that removing Lambda's mouthing off was meant so that they could probably insert her tips and whatever tips Bern was also supposed to say but was cut off (can't remember from the top of my head) and introduce it at some later point. Lest I'm mistaken, her and Bern's tips aren't in direct context with the actual events of Ep2 but more of how Beatrice approaches her playing.

That said, it may be a good idea to actually mention in this or some other thread what exactly Lamda and Bern were supposed to have said. I for one think that Bern's tips are more important than Lambda's IMHO. The tips may be spoilerish though.
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Old 2009-09-11, 11:04   Link #258
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Quite late, but finally watched without much distracting activities:

This episode was... well kinda average to me.
-For one, as people probably mentioned, there are mistakes that don't make any sense (barricaded parlor door magically became normal, last magical circle screwed up etc).

-What was however kinda average was the pacing: they dramatically went so slow on the last 2 episodes that they really just squeezed the rest. The start was already a big momentum break: instead of going for a climatic "end" with George and Shannon in the last episode, they just cut the episode before it last week and started with a much slower pace, which really doesn't help the first time watcher I would say (1 week later, I doubt people would be under the effect of Gohda's brave last stand and brutal death).
Funnily enough, I think they could just end this scene with Beatrice "You think I will let you?!" then black screen. That would certainly convey how "it went bad", leaving a sense of uncertainty about how Shannon and George died, but also a good way to cut down precious seconds for other scenes.
The whole "wolf" thing with Battler left something to be desired: the lead up.

-Suit Beatrice gained 1-2 cup it seems

-The end of Episode 2 was probably the best part of this episode. At least they did a good job about the banquet, though I wonder since when Battler was so.. thin. I was expecting him to be rather solidly built, but when he is slammed to the ground, it seems he was in some drastic denutrition state

-As for Rosa Musou... well, the length wasn't that of an issue, but rather the execution. I know it is kinda too late, since they did it with Kanon already, but the goats are just cannon fodder instead of being the "tanking grunts". So they prone to vanish at the slightest damage, which just takes away the whole brawl and desperate aspect of it (and since they also removed the struggle and Rosa's fall, it doesn't look like she is for a losing battle).
In theory, it is possible to keep that scene as intense as in the VN within a mere minute, but it is everything about execution instead.

-Now, what annoyed me the most: the tea party. As much as I can see they wanted to keep the disturbing and gruesome aspect of it as a whole, they just went too far with Maria. For one, I'm again surprised they could make worse and worse expressions for her (chapel and that scene), but they mangled completely her intent. Sure she was willing to sacrifice herself, but she wasn't going like a psycho "eat me!". Thus, she was looking plainly demented, period. So, when the goats were trying to push Maria's head in Rosa's mouth, I couldn't help but laugh dry at this.

-As for the ura tea party, it just got the short end of a stick. No, the absent "nii-pa", fanservice wasn't the issue at all (good grief, I would just be even more annoyed if they put it instead of more relevant critical detail). Rather, they just introduced Lambda for the kicks, they didn't really show her "hidden" objective but also her tips. Thus, it is again to the detriment to the first watchers who will have hard time to figure "what is that damn pink loli witch doing here?".
As always the best review in animesuki =)

Friends of mine ask me to see some scenes from the sound so i record them if someone want to see them here are the videos
(thanks hitomi for upload all the videos)

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-09-11, 12:11   Link #259
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Very good episode overall, I think it's good that I played the novels early so I don't have them that fresh in memory; and as a more general media fan I find the novels to be painfully slow sometimes, so that pacing would make for a horrible anime with pacing even inferior to that of dragon ball Z (now I am imagining rosa musou lasting 6 chapters, with long flashbacks and rosa powering up and killing one goat every chapter).

I am giving it a 9 because they cut the nude beatrice scene.
maximilianjenus is offline  
Old 2009-09-11, 12:43   Link #260
ghost_zero5
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Well for me the both tea parties were really bad in this episode. The ura one left out crucial information, also that Battler had "help" to "leave" his "furniture state".
Well, I normally wouldn't call it "help" though but without this, I am sure he wouldn't have been able to leave his "furniture state" so "easily".
And the other one I think didn't explain too well as to why Rosa surrendered.
Also it left out the scene of Battler smashing Beato's head on the table - OK, that one isn't crucial but I really wanted to see it Also they left out some of his and Beato's lines which I think are kinda "interesting" like the "joke reason" for why he came "back" there, instead of "surrendering".

Regarding the whole perseverance discussion actually as already stated for once the whole thing is an English translation from Japanese and secondly it doesn't actually mean to never ever give up your point of view. It is more like over a period of time but even that doesn't actually describe it too well but it definitely doesn't mean for eternity.
Actually, it would just be stupid to not give up, if you have been proofen wrong.

@Klashikari:
Good review.


Anyway, I have hopes for the remaining two VN episodes though, as especially those should be interesting to watch animated. However, the remaining two VN episodes are kinda long compared to the already animated ones.
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