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Old 2009-12-27, 16:07   Link #321
Dark Mage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
^ Agreed. Also there's a difference between placing yourself in the shoes of a character or relating to one and "living" through one so badly to the point where if said character gets denied the chance to pop a LI's cherry it's like it happened to you personally. Sadly as shown by the reaction to Kannagi and now GE some sad otaku's clearly cross the line.
yep. And I think there's a difference between an Otaku and a guy who watches movies or reads novels. Otaku's do really shut themselves up like that. Japan has a huge problem with these neets, or highscoolers who refuse to go to hughschool, or otaku neets who are using up the national funds.

About my jab earlier at Otakus I was mostly joking around but it is true. Moree and more of these guys are trying to escape from reaity without facing them, become otakus, turn suicidal or become violent, that seems to be the answer
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Old 2009-12-27, 18:00   Link #322
Darknemo2000
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Originally Posted by typhonsentra View Post
No, I kinda feel like the whole "The main character MUST be an empty outlet for the male readers" isn't as prevalent in other forms of entertainment. Shit, in Shojo comics readers seem to have no problem with the female protagonist breaking down in tears on a weekly basis. Escapism is prevalent in a lot of fiction yes, but this expectation that the character can never face any real heartache or conflict isn't. And yes, the obsession with the idea that a girl must be a virgin is sexist. Again, there's no such virgin rule amongst female otakus when it comes to their romance comics, is there?
In fact female otakus like when the main character is a man-slut. You can see a lot of shoujos where the guy has a lots of relationships before meeting his only (the heroine) it is quite popular there. But different genres give different priorities.

For example you will not see in shounen the hero forcing the heroine, while in shoujo it is the most common thing ever. It quite often look like rape even.

Different audience with different tastes.

You could also blame shoujo fans for liking violence against females with such resolve since a lot of shoujo's have that stuff in them.

You can say that looking at the female as an object which value is determined by her innocence (which physical expression is the virginity), but there also some weird connotations regarding shoujo as well.

Its just the matter of audience and what they want. Our society creates some tropes that manga's follow. Why in shoujo it is the girls first kiss while the guy even if not a man-slut is still quite well experienced etc.

Different audiences have different likings, and you can find sexism in the shoujo as well so I cannot say that shounen is worse than shoujo in that aspect.

Its just that in shounen they value the heroine's innocence while in shoujo the preference is put on hero's experience (while heroine is innocent).

The problem is when its expression steps over the limit. But it is also true that clichéd sexist stuff pleases masses more than liberal one, so if it sells better it is natural for mangaka's to aim to get most of it. Which creates a clichés for shounen and shoujo which are expected, difference to which can cause controversy.
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Old 2009-12-27, 19:45   Link #323
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Thats something I don't get with some shoujo manga. Take Hot Gimmick for example, the heroine was in such an abusive relationship yet she likes it...WTF. The person who shows her the most devotion and kindness gets the shortest end of the stick. Go figure...
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Old 2009-12-27, 20:17   Link #324
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
In fact female otakus like when the main character is a man-slut. You can see a lot of shoujos where the guy has a lots of relationships before meeting his only (the heroine) it is quite popular there. But different genres give different priorities.

For example you will not see in shounen the hero forcing the heroine, while in shoujo it is the most common thing ever. It quite often look like rape even.

Different audience with different tastes.

You could also blame shoujo fans for liking violence against females with such resolve since a lot of shoujo's have that stuff in them.

You can say that looking at the female as an object which value is determined by her innocence (which physical expression is the virginity), but there also some weird connotations regarding shoujo as well.

Its just the matter of audience and what they want. Our society creates some tropes that manga's follow. Why in shoujo it is the girls first kiss while the guy even if not a man-slut is still quite well experienced etc.

Different audiences have different likings, and you can find sexism in the shoujo as well so I cannot say that shounen is worse than shoujo in that aspect.

Its just that in shounen they value the heroine's innocence while in shoujo the preference is put on hero's experience (while heroine is innocent).

The problem is when its expression steps over the limit. But it is also true that clichéd sexist stuff pleases masses more than liberal one, so if it sells better it is natural for mangaka's to aim to get most of it. Which creates a clichés for shounen and shoujo which are expected, difference to which can cause controversy.
I don't what your trying to say. Are you saying that sexism is prevalent in both Shounen and Shoujo? Well I would completely agree with you on that. Are you also saying that the way is should stay? Then I'd disagree with you.

You make a lot of generalizations but that doesn't make them right. Not long ago Yuri was a genre relegated to morbid Shoujo's and hidden subtext but not that genre has exploded into almost every demographic. Cliches are created because it is shown to work but that does not mean that a story should be limited to those things. Before these things became cliches they had to have someone able to take risk on them. Did Dragonball Z become popular by following what its predecessors were doing? No, the author made a lot of cliches we follow today in shounen by doing things his predecessors never did.

Even today we see a lot of changes going on in these demographics. The anti-hero is becoming quite popular (Code Breaker for example) while before in Shounen the main hero was always pure good. This is changing. Don't want a innocent shoujo heroine why not read the massively popular "Nana"? It certainly did it best to show a much more realist story and you can say that a show like Revolutionary Girl Utena made it popularity by subverting the entire Shoujo and fantasy genres. When you try something new you often invite controversy but that not always a bad thing and is more often that not a good thing. I remember when people said a show like Xena and Buffy the Vampire Slayer would never work because of there female protagonist who were more often that not very sexually liberated especially Xena. Both shows took a lot of heat when they first started out too.

Honestly, no one is forcing people to read her work. If you don't like it you can choose not to read it but that doesn't mean that she did anything wrong by trying to do something outside the box and challenge her readers to be more open minded on things like this.
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Old 2009-12-27, 20:54   Link #325
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Perhaps those themes do give the female readers the wrong impression of how a relationship should go (Which seems to be the point you're arguing), but what I'm trying to say is that the demand for virginity seems to come from a different place. Abuse in most female focused entertainment whether it be Shoujo or a Lifetime movie isn't about glorifying or idealizing that lifestyle, it's about creating tension for the female protagonist to overcome, albeit some authors have trouble spelling out the message properly. In other words, domestic abuse is used because it's an easily recognizable device that the audience will recognize and help to make them care about the story, it isn't intended (Key word here) to represent how a relationship should be nor what your partner should be like.
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Old 2009-12-27, 21:06   Link #326
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Originally Posted by Rickketik View Post
Well If you are not that much if a talented storyteller then yes..
You'd be a worse storyteller if you just had good stuff happening. It's like lord of the rings, or what Samwise said during the story. How all the stories have heroes facing insurmountable odds and sometimes tragedy but that made the good ending at the end even better. Compared to a story where the hero just breezes by on everything.
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Old 2009-12-27, 21:26   Link #327
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
You'd be a worse storyteller if you just had good stuff happening. It's like lord of the rings, or what Samwise said during the story. How all the stories have heroes facing insurmountable odds and sometimes tragedy but that made the good ending at the end even better. Compared to a story where the hero just breezes by on everything.
Although it would be nice if real life actually went like that. But not stories.
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Old 2009-12-27, 21:30   Link #328
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Well, there's the old argument that if you never experience the dark, you won't appreciate the light. So if you've never really experienced any sort of trouble or setback, you won't appreciate the things you have.
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Old 2009-12-28, 04:06   Link #329
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
I don't what your trying to say. Are you saying that sexism is prevalent in both Shounen and Shoujo? Well I would completely agree with you on that. Are you also saying that the way is should stay? Then I'd disagree with you.

You make a lot of generalizations but that doesn't make them right. Not long ago Yuri was a genre relegated to morbid Shoujo's and hidden subtext but not that genre has exploded into almost every demographic. Cliches are created because it is shown to work but that does not mean that a story should be limited to those things. Before these things became cliches they had to have someone able to take risk on them. Did Dragonball Z become popular by following what its predecessors were doing? No, the author made a lot of cliches we follow today in shounen by doing things his predecessors never did.

Even today we see a lot of changes going on in these demographics. The anti-hero is becoming quite popular (Code Breaker for example) while before in Shounen the main hero was always pure good. This is changing. Don't want a innocent shoujo heroine why not read the massively popular "Nana"? It certainly did it best to show a much more realist story and you can say that a show like Revolutionary Girl Utena made it popularity by subverting the entire Shoujo and fantasy genres. When you try something new you often invite controversy but that not always a bad thing and is more often that not a good thing. I remember when people said a show like Xena and Buffy the Vampire Slayer would never work because of there female protagonist who were more often that not very sexually liberated especially Xena. Both shows took a lot of heat when they first started out too.

Honestly, no one is forcing people to read her work. If you don't like it you can choose not to read it but that doesn't mean that she did anything wrong by trying to do something outside the box and challenge her readers to be more open minded on things like this.
It is obvious from strong reactions that it this particular seinen-like plot twist is still not accepted in shounen.

Yes, it changes, but it is obvious that this part is not ready to change yet, it causes controversy but it hardly makes manga more popular. It causes more discussions (like how GE thread in here was before chapter 11 and after it) however it hardly benefits the mangaka's because they are up for a personal attacks on them (though I think GE mangaka is really way too emotional there because frankly Kannagi or Evangelion had much worse feedback than she had and she still went all emotional and closed the site - you have to have thicker skin if you want to try to do some controversial things. because if you look as weak as she did here it will only increase otaku's pressure because they see her bend quite easily).

Anyways, while the demographic changes, this particular change seems to be still rejected thus it would be advisable for author to try something less drastic and change it bit by bit, the particular twist in GE was too drastic I think.

They key point of my comparison between shoujo and shounen was saying that they are both sexist in their way, because it seemed like typhonsentra wanted to stress how sexist the shounen is comapred to shoujo, which is what I am keen to disagree since they both have sexist issues of them, just different, but it does not really make one better than the other.

In shoujo heroine has to be innocent (or else it causes the reaction from female readers - not as strong as shounen, but it still does). I think female innocence is stressed by both shounen and shoujo, the difference is the reaction towards the change...

All and all, I think this should have been in a seinen magazine, because at least for now some tropes in the shounen manga are still a taboo and GE tried unsuccessfully pass through them and make itself original (for s shounen, because in seinen such development would not be original), but it only caused a lot of controversy which is no good specially knowing how emotionally soft this particular mangaka seems to be...
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Old 2009-12-28, 05:54   Link #330
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
It is obvious from strong reactions that it this particular seinen-like plot twist is still not accepted in shounen.
What do you base this on? Just because the some of the Otaku are the loudest and most condemning of this plotline it certainly doesn't mean that they speak for the majority. What gives them the right to decide what is acceptable or not for the rest of us? Cause they cry and whine the loudest? We'll have to see how the manga does on sale when it comes out to have at least some idea on how well or badly it is received. If there as much differ viewpoints as we see on this board then I'd say it's not as badly off as you would try to make it out as.

Quote:
Yes, it changes, but it is obvious that this part is not ready to change yet, it causes controversy but it hardly makes manga more popular. It causes more discussions (like how GE thread in here was before chapter 11 and after it) however it hardly benefits the mangaka's because they are up for a personal attacks on them (though I think GE mangaka is really way too emotional there because frankly Kannagi or Evangelion had much worse feedback than she had and she still went all emotional and closed the site - you have to have thicker skin if you want to try to do some controversial things. because if you look as weak as she did here it will only increase otaku's pressure because they see her bend quite easily).
Controversy can be detrimental or extremely benefical. It depends on how it pans out which it has yet to. Those who might have no considered reading this might actually be now attracted to it since this controversy. It can possibly pull in a better female reader base (which shounen has a decent female base already) as well as pulling in Seinen fans(teenagers or older fans) while can easily off set any loss of readership from those Otaku and those who just didn't like this twist.

I don't know where you get she weak because she closed her blog. It was prudent to shut it down if it is becoming a problem with Otaku spamming it. Blog are not in anyway required and in fact I don't understand there purpose anyway other than to inspire more stalkers and put mundane and useless crap out about yourself. If she changes her story to appease these guys then I'd agree with you on her being weak.


Quote:
They key point of my comparison between shoujo and shounen was saying that they are both sexist in their way, because it seemed like typhonsentra wanted to stress how sexist the shounen is comapred to shoujo, which is what I am keen to disagree since they both have sexist issues of them, just different, but it does not really make one better than the other.

In shoujo heroine has to be innocent (or else it causes the reaction from female readers - not as strong as shounen, but it still does). I think female innocence is stressed by both shounen and shoujo, the difference is the reaction towards the change...
I honestly find Shoujo extremely more sexist than Shounen in many different ways but thats besides the point. Shoujo often focus on first love and that why the majority of them are virgins but that's doesn't mean that everyone of them is. Check out Nana for a clear example of when pretty none of the girls are virgins at the beginning. Often times in Shounen the virginity issue is left up in the air and in fact often completely ignored. Do we think the 100+ years Rukia(bleach) is a virgin? Well we'll probably never really know as that's really irrelevant point in the manga. Some take for granted that the heroine is a virgin but rarely is it completely stated either way.

Quote:
All and all, I think this should have been in a seinen magazine, because at least for now some tropes in the shounen manga are still a taboo and GE tried unsuccessfully pass through them and make itself original (for s shounen, because in seinen such development would not be original), but it only caused a lot of controversy which is no good specially knowing how emotionally soft this particular mangaka seems to be...
I don't know how you've already figured this is unsuccessful already. I apparently don't have the crystal ball that you do but I think I'll go with my gut here and wait a bit more to see how this plays out. I honestly don't really see how this would work in a seinen manga anyway. While Seinen generally has more sex and violence the message here is clearly geared to a younger and more inexperienced reader. This is his first relationship and like most first relationships it can be very bumpy and not all his idolized fantasies about the girls might turn out to be true. Most older readers have quite learned this already so it would probably not make as much of a impact in that demographic.
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Old 2009-12-28, 06:36   Link #331
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
What do you base this on? Just because the some of the Otaku are the loudest and most condemning of this plotline it certainly doesn't mean that they speak for the majority. What gives them the right to decide what is acceptable or not for the rest of us? Cause they cry and whine the loudest? We'll have to see how the manga does on sale when it comes out to have at least some idea on how well or badly it is received. If there as much differ viewpoints as we see on this board then I'd say it's not as badly off as you would try to make it out as.
.
Well said! Clap Clap. I agree with you wholeheartedly. From what I have seen in this forum, the majority like this manga and have no problems with how the story is progressing, its a minority that are complaining. The same goes for the mangaFox forums and OneManga Forums the majority like the manga and its progress and a few actually complain. I think this manga is one of the few mangas that will pull in girl fans as well as guys. Just now I saw on mangaFox forums some guy posted that Yuki and Shou are now "second-hand goods" and he got thoroughly rebuked the poor guy
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Old 2009-12-28, 06:38   Link #332
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Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
What do you base this on? Just because the some of the Otaku are the loudest and most condemning of this plotline it certainly doesn't mean that they speak for the majority. What gives them the right to decide what is acceptable or not for the rest of us? Cause they cry and whine the loudest? We'll have to see how the manga does on sale when it comes out to have at least some idea on how well or badly it is received. If there as much differ viewpoints as we see on this board then I'd say it's not as badly off as you would try to make it out as.
Thats because I don't hear much of support for the manga. Here on these forums (in western) there is but on eastern it seems like there is much more unaccepting the recent development.

I find my statement has more ground that the one that says it has the support from the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slick_rick View Post
Controversy can be detrimental or extremely benefical. It depends on how it pans out which it has yet to. Those who might have no considered reading this might actually be now attracted to it since this controversy. It can possibly pull in a better female reader base (which shounen has a decent female base already) as well as pulling in Seinen fans(teenagers or older fans) while can easily off set any loss of readership from those Otaku and those who just didn't like this twist.

I don't know where you get she weak because she closed her blog. It was prudent to shut it down if it is becoming a problem with Otaku spamming it. Blog are not in anyway required and in fact I don't understand there purpose anyway other than to inspire more stalkers and put mundane and useless crap out about yourself. If she changes her story to appease these guys then I'd agree with you on her being weak.
Doesn't she herself said she was 'heartfallen' as on stating the reason to close the site? It was not because of the flood made it hard to handle the blog but more because of emotional effect it had.

Controversy is not a bad thing per se (see Evangelion), but when it starts messing with authors live it is - Kannagi author was sick, but interesting enough the sickness hit her the most when she was put under the stress due to recent development. As you know our psychological state effects our physical one. If it makes such stress over you - then its not a good thing.

And besides how would you determine if the changes GE would make are effected by the readers or not? She can't really undo the part the story that was presented... and you can always argue that the future story progression was planned rather than effected by the reactions of the readers.

Like Ichigo for example? A lot of people say it was planned but the mangaka herself stated that she had no direction at all (in the 4th omake I think) and it seems like she was influenced by the popularity polls...

Quote:
I honestly find Shoujo extremely more sexist than Shounen in many different ways but thats besides the point. Shoujo often focus on first love and that why the majority of them are virgins but that's doesn't mean that everyone of them is. Check out Nana for a clear example of when pretty none of the girls are virgins at the beginning. Often times in Shounen the virginity issue is left up in the air and in fact often completely ignored. Do we think the 100+ years Rukia(bleach) is a virgin? Well we'll probably never really know as that's really irrelevant point in the manga. Some take for granted that the heroine is a virgin but rarely is it completely stated either way.
Thats because it is not a romance, so no one really stress over it because it has little importance. On the other hand show that Rukia is not a virgin and I am sure you will get a sudden increase in your correspondence, the majority of which won't be very pleasant to read. I am pretty sure of it, though you of course can disagree.

Quote:
I don't know how you've already figured this is unsuccessful already. I apparently don't have the crystal ball that you do but I think I'll go with my gut here and wait a bit more to see how this plays out. I honestly don't really see how this would work in a seinen manga anyway. While Seinen generally has more sex and violence the message here is clearly geared to a younger and more inexperienced reader. This is his first relationship and like most first relationships it can be very bumpy and not all his idolized fantasies about the girls might turn out to be true. Most older readers have quite learned this already so it would probably not make as much of a impact in that demographic.
The discussion about success is always shooting in the dark because the manga is still not ended but I am saying what I am seeing so far - evangelion caused controversy but the negative feedback was outmatched by the positive feedback, while in GE case we get much more negative feedback than the positive one, so I am shooting it towards unsuccessful so far. It does not mean the judgment cannot change with the end, I just find it is more possible to guess to that direction for now. You could say that one should not do guessing at all, but again I do because I want to do so, it is your freedom to agree or disagree, but it would not change my stance towards the matter regardless of what you think.

As for this all issue...

There is even a popular saying which probably explains the shounen and shoujo direction 'Every man wants to be the woman's first, while every woman want to be the man's last."

And it does not come from manga. Manga just more crystallizes on this "woman's first" and "man's last", but this urge is not from the otaku at all (I remember this saying since it was used in one of Adair books that I recently read, but its used in lot of literature so I cannot say who was the first to say it). This desire seem to be much older, the problem is that manga and the otakus seem to be so focused on this that every diverge from it is taken with a lot of criticism.
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Old 2009-12-28, 08:40   Link #333
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Thats because I don't hear much of support for the manga. Here on these forums (in western) there is but on eastern it seems like there is much more unaccepting the recent development.

I find my statement has more ground that the one that says it has the support from the community.
Places such a 2chan are very unreliable to take as evidence on such things. Especially since Shounen is such a huge demographic that pulls in all sorts of fans not just an Otaku which you'd expect to be the backbone of a MOE show like Kannagi than a Shounen. Even while you might have ground from your assertions claiming that these things are "obvious" is clearly a completely bad logic. You don't have the kind support at all to make such claims. You make a lot of generalizations, then draw conclusions from them and then claim them as fact. Even if we say that all you conclusions are correct that still doesn't even go towards proving that this is the way things should stay or that this is the correct way to handle things.

Quote:
Doesn't she herself said she was 'heartfallen' as on stating the reason to close the site? It was not because of the flood made it hard to handle the blog but more because of emotional effect it had.
I'm sure it had an emotional effect on her. Mainly I'd expect some disappointment in her readerbase more than anything but I'd be surprise if she didn't have a reaction. This does strike me as weakness but being human.

Quote:
And besides how would you determine if the changes GE would make are effected by the readers or not? She can't really undo the part the story that was presented... and you can always argue that the future story progression was planned rather than effected by the reactions of the readers.

Like Ichigo for example? A lot of people say it was planned but the mangaka herself stated that she had no direction at all (in the 4th omake I think) and it seems like she was influenced by the popularity polls...
Why does it matter if we know or don't know? If she allows the fans to scare her into completely changing the direction of the manga out of fear then that is weakness. Whether the reader ever finds out or not either way doesn't change that fact. You girlfriend/boyfriend never finding out about you cheating doesn't really make the fact you did go away now does it? Whether she has it planned out or not is similar she needs to follow her own goals not let it be dictated to her by soon lonely guys with too much time on there hands.



Quote:
Thats because it is not a romance, so no one really stress over it because it has little importance. On the other hand show that Rukia is not a virgin and I am sure you will get a sudden increase in your correspondence, the majority of which won't be very pleasant to read. I am pretty sure of it, though you of course can disagree.
I would agree with you. I don't know if that makes that kind of behavior right though. Hiding behind our childish male egos and even females own self-righteous condemnation of other females who aren't virgins isn't something I think should be promoted.



Quote:
You could say that one should not do guessing at all, but again I do because I want to do so, it is your freedom to agree or disagree, but it would not change my stance towards the matter regardless of what you think.
Guessing is fine claiming your guess as fact is not. You have a right to your opinion but the author also has a right to present her work as she see fits and people can choose if the want to read it or not. Criticism is fine but harassment is not. It just go to show the kind of people who would go to such lengths and how immature they are.

Quote:
As for this all issue...

There is even a popular saying which probably explains the shounen and shoujo direction 'Every man wants to be the woman's first, while every woman want to be the man's last."

And it does not come from manga. Manga just more crystallizes on this "woman's first" and "man's last", but this urge is not from the otaku at all (I remember this saying since it was used in one of Adair books that I recently read, but its used in lot of literature so I cannot say who was the first to say it). This desire seem to be much older, the problem is that manga and the otakus seem to be so focused on this that every diverge from it is taken with a lot of criticism.
No, the real problem is such idiotic things exist in the first place. In fact that generalization is far from universally true. Since last time I checked I was a man and I have never cared if I was a woman's first or not and met woman more than willing to let there husband sleep around i.e swingers. Most men have let go of such childish illusions since it would only lead to constant disappointment... well unless you date middle schoolers. And I'd say most men also want to be the last for the women they are in love with too. That's just plain simple logic...
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Old 2009-12-28, 09:47   Link #334
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Old 2009-12-28, 13:00   Link #335
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I think you mean 18. Someone has them mislabeled for one reason or aother.
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Old 2009-12-28, 14:09   Link #336
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Old 2009-12-31, 17:21   Link #337
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side note: it kinda sucks when you have to avoid everyone's post because they may contain raw spoilers. It also sucks that I have to scower backpages to read the current trans chap posts. I'm not blaming you guys or anything, just felt the need to say that.

Anyway, ch 13.... that senpai def seems too suave for his feelings to actually be legitimate. I feel bad for Shou, since I know she will prob end up getting the short end of the stick. I do like Yuki better anyways, so I'm hoping that since Shou is at least temp out of the way for the moment, Yuki and Utsumi will strengthen their friendship more(a relationship too soon would be stupid). Utsumi seems to act more natural with Yuki anyway.
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Old 2009-12-31, 17:26   Link #338
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When I read Chapter 13, I saw my high school freshman year flashing before my eyes. Not a pleasant trip down memory lane.
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Old 2009-12-31, 20:22   Link #339
HayashiTakara
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This recent chapter actually stirred my feelings and brought a tear to my eye, Bravo! I want to see this animated!!!!
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Old 2009-12-31, 20:51   Link #340
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well in this chapter what kind i say, it is horrible, Utsumi got his heart broken, i disappointed about his senpai shou, she doesnt make up her mind from the start,about which one did she like. I also think she will broke up soon with that guy, there are no way they can have a long relationship because that guy got dumb by his ex-girlfriend and just try to get someone as a replacement. I hope Utsumi should going out with yuki, she did so much for him, i think she like him too. but anyway this chapter kind disappointed, i really hate girl who doesnt make up their mind in the first place, and then make people suffer in the end.
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