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Old 2010-01-14, 20:56   Link #441
Luminisk
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Pretty obvious by now that Utsumi is going to have to earn his good ending.
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Old 2010-01-14, 21:32   Link #442
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Originally Posted by Luminisk View Post
Pretty obvious by now that Utsumi is going to have to earn his good ending.
He was a good guy and did nothing wrong, in fact one could say he did right things, and he did not earned it,so how he can then?

Being a bad?

As in becoming a player himself?

Because so far thats the morale of this story - good guys get nothing, but a shit. So maybe being an asshole would earn him a good ending finally.
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Old 2010-01-14, 22:40   Link #443
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
He was a good guy and did nothing wrong, in fact one could say he did right things, and he did not earned it,so how he can then?

Being a bad?

As in becoming a player himself?

Because so far thats the morale of this story - good guys get nothing, but a shit. So maybe being an asshole would earn him a good ending finally.
The trick to earning the ending is that the ending has to be in sight first, and that does not seem to be the case so right all we're doing is speculating. But in my experience, stories where the author demands the characters to earn their endings usually involve a lot shit being thrown at characters. It can get pretty cynical at times but that just the way the author wants the story to unfold, so just expect it.


To be honest though, this is pretty mild compared to some of the other works I've seen where the author simply despises character and the cynicism is way off the scale, and there are some down right ugly stuff. (The netorare genre pops in my mind for some reason )
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Old 2010-01-14, 23:34   Link #444
evil|plushie
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
He was a good guy and did nothing wrong, in fact one could say he did right things, and he did not earned it,so how he can then?

Being a bad?

As in becoming a player himself?

Because so far thats the morale of this story - good guys get nothing, but a shit. So maybe being an asshole would earn him a good ending finally.
Utsumi can hardly be considered a good guy. He's a normal guy, but I've hardly seen him do anything that can be really considered good. I mean, what's he done so far? Tried his best to chase after a girl? Is that what sets the bar for being considered a good guy? Really? Failed and then moped about for a while before thinking about another girl? Again, hardly what I call being a good guy.

It's not that he's done anything wrong but I just think just because he's not an ass doesn't necessarily make him a good guy.
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Old 2010-01-15, 04:40   Link #445
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Because so far thats the morale of this story - good guys get nothing, but a shit. So maybe being an asshole would earn him a good ending finally.
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Old 2010-01-15, 05:28   Link #446
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Good ending with his hands yeah.
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Old 2010-01-15, 05:46   Link #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminisk View Post
To be honest though, this is pretty mild compared to some of the other works I've seen where the author simply despises character and the cynicism is way off the scale, and there are some down right ugly stuff. (The netorare genre pops in my mind for some reason )
Tell me the names of other shounen manga that would be doing this stuff. I would guess the most you can name are seinens, and yeah, compared to some seinens it is fairly mild, but again - this is not a seinen, so we should talk about shounens and among shounens it is pretty hardcore in that respect.

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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Utsumi can hardly be considered a good guy. He's a normal guy, but I've hardly seen him do anything that can be really considered good. I mean, what's he done so far? Tried his best to chase after a girl? Is that what sets the bar for being considered a good guy? Really? Failed and then moped about for a while before thinking about another girl? Again, hardly what I call being a good guy.

It's not that he's done anything wrong but I just think just because he's not an ass doesn't necessarily make him a good guy.
Compared to other shounen heros? Yep, he is a good guy, he doesnt do yourt usual shounen hero screw-ups. In most cases in shounens the hero brings out some of misfortunes on himself for acting badly in one or the other situation.

He chases the girl, but does it in a good way - he doesn't try to force her, nor he is trying to hook up with other girls at the same time.

Well, even if you call him normal it barely changes the whole meaning of the sentence. Then it would be - normal guys get nothing, but guys get everything.

I guess its realistic, but again - it should have been a seinen if thats the case. For a shounen it is very unusual, so it is natural that the author gets negative feedback regarding it.
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Old 2010-01-15, 08:01   Link #448
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So you're comparing a normal guy to screwups and using that as a basis for being a good guy? That seems kinda easy to me.

And yes, normal guys sometimes get nothing because they do nothing that attracts peoples attention. Hence, why they're normal. At least bad guys attract attention which in turn makes them more memorable and stand out more in peoples eyes. The same could be said for good guys.

Plus Utsumi was going to go out with his sempai. But due to no fault of his own, his sempai prefers her own sempai, who to be honest, we only suspect of being an ass. He hasn't done anything to warrant that title yet judging from his own actions and shou's own memories. So it's not so much girls prefer bad guys or assholes, but Shou prefers her own sempai for her own reasons , none of which have to do with the guy being an ass.
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Old 2010-01-15, 22:47   Link #449
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So you're comparing a normal guy to screwups and using that as a basis for being a good guy? That seems kinda easy to me.

And yes, normal guys sometimes get nothing because they do nothing that attracts peoples attention. Hence, why they're normal. At least bad guys attract attention which in turn makes them more memorable and stand out more in peoples eyes. The same could be said for good guys.

Plus Utsumi was going to go out with his sempai. But due to no fault of his own, his sempai prefers her own sempai, who to be honest, we only suspect of being an ass. He hasn't done anything to warrant that title yet judging from his own actions and shou's own memories. So it's not so much girls prefer bad guys or assholes, but Shou prefers her own sempai for her own reasons , none of which have to do with the guy being an ass.
And what is the difference between the good and normal guy then? How would a good guy act in Utsu's shoes?

I seriously don't see much difference. Utsu looks like good guy for me, well in either case he is tought that the way he is now (whatever good or normal) he is not someone that girls like (4 girls already and none like him more than a friend, one of them seem to have some issues against him or men in general), despite him being relatively in a close distance to at least 3 of them.

Obviously that its not working, so if he has brains he needs to change - and better to the opposite if his current self gets friend-zoned or left for other love interests.

And since for me he looks like a good guy I am saying he should become a playboy or an ass, because so far he was shy, nice and blushing a lot and little good did that do to him.
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Old 2010-01-15, 23:32   Link #450
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There's a lot of difference between a good guy and a normal guy. Someone I'd consider good would be a volunteer rescue worker, a social worker etc etc etc. If you don't see the difference between Utsumi and a good guy, it's only because standards have apparently dropped a lot. As for how a good guy would act in Utsumi's shoes, I have no idea. But that doesn't mean that Utsumi is a good guy either. Like I said, what has he done that's considered good? Has he shown himself to be consistently good? Or just consistently normal?

And seriously, just cause he's in contact with 4 girls, one of them must like him? Really?

And yes, he would have to change if he wanted to attract a female's attentions. That was what Yuki was doing with him in the first place. Obviously she succeeded somewhat because he did manage to attract Shou's attention, but she just happens to have had a much bigger attraction to her Sempai (which to be frank has apparently been going on for years). So what, just because you think he's a good guy, he should somehow manage to attract Shou's attention so much in the span of 16 chapters (which isn't even a month in real time I think) that she's willing to forgo the attention of someone she's had a crush on for at least a year or more? Aren't you projecting yourself a bit too much into the guys shoes?
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Old 2010-01-16, 01:02   Link #451
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Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
There's a lot of difference between a good guy and a normal guy. Someone I'd consider good would be a volunteer rescue worker, a social worker etc etc etc. If you don't see the difference between Utsumi and a good guy, it's only because standards have apparently dropped a lot. As for how a good guy would act in Utsumi's shoes, I have no idea. But that doesn't mean that Utsumi is a good guy either. Like I said, what has he done that's considered good? Has he shown himself to be consistently good? Or just consistently normal?

And seriously, just cause he's in contact with 4 girls, one of them must like him? Really?

And yes, he would have to change if he wanted to attract a female's attentions. That was what Yuki was doing with him in the first place. Obviously she succeeded somewhat because he did manage to attract Shou's attention, but she just happens to have had a much bigger attraction to her Sempai (which to be frank has apparently been going on for years). So what, just because you think he's a good guy, he should somehow manage to attract Shou's attention so much in the span of 16 chapters (which isn't even a month in real time I think) that she's willing to forgo the attention of someone she's had a crush on for at least a year or more? Aren't you projecting yourself a bit too much into the guys shoes?
So a good guy is a saint mother Teressa with penis? Or just being a social worker is good enough to be a good guy? Really your description seems to be rather shallow and abstract by itself and rather than my standards being too low, I would question yours being too high.

For me probably a good guy is what you would call a normal guy. The what you would call a good guy are bit too rare beings on this surface of the earth (unless you are saying that being a social worker is enough of being a good guy, then indeed the number would rise significantly).

Obviously he came into contact with more girls than just those 4, but with those 4 (well ok, 3, because Risa stuff is still not clear) he moved onto more intimate area where the relationship could start. There is a great difference. You sarcasm is silly and not in a right place.

And it is not just about the Shou but about the other girls as well. It is obvious that being the way he is is not working. Yuki wants to make an ideal guy from him, but this ideal guy that she is trying to make seems to be an ideal friend and nothing more.
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Old 2010-01-16, 01:51   Link #452
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Nah. Mother Teresa was a saint for a reason. She dedicated herself to helping people. A good guy would be someone who occasionally goes out of his way to help people, like a volunteer. And I'd hardly call my definition shallow when yours seems to be normal guy = good guy. Like I said, it's not enough to be normal or not bad to be considered good. Normal people are normal. Good people are good. Bad people are bad. Most humans are just normal. That doesn't mean they're not capable of good acts, just that their natural instinct is to waffle between the two.

If by intimate area, you mean 'friendship' then yes, he's become friends with them which could lead to something. But your expectation that at least 1 of these 4 girls should like him is kinda ridiculous considering he's only interacted with most of them for what, 16 chapters? And of those 2 he's interacted with the longest, Shou was attracted to him and the other, Yuki is basically not intr in starting a relationship at the moment cause of her trauma.

As for Utsumi not attracting the girls, have you ever thought it's because he doesn't want to attract them? He was clearly going after Shou at first, so he concentrated on her. Even Yuki's coaching was focused on getting him to attract Shou, not making him an ideal friend or guy for herself. I have to question what you consider a 'good' set of circumstances for Utsumi. Is it him attracting all the girls even when he's not trying to, even girls he's not intr in? Is that what you want to see in the manga?
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Old 2010-01-16, 02:45   Link #453
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[sarcasm]I thought the typical route was to act like you don't care about the girl. Forcibly mate with her, then she falls in love with you...[/sarcasm] I can't remember what manga that messed up logic is from, but I've read several that followed that line...

I think Utsumi needs to cool off from the trying to get a girlfriend. Plus find that magnet that keeps sending mentally screwed up girls his way and destory it. Of course the manga wouldn't have a plot, so I guess we can deal with it...

The author is stretching the 'nice guys finish last' pretty thin. However he's hit rock bottom so it can't get any worse, maybe...

Thanks for that comment Darknemo2000, I can't look at a pic of Mother Teressa in the same light anymore...
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Old 2010-01-16, 04:52   Link #454
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Nah. Mother Teresa was a saint for a reason. She dedicated herself to helping people. A good guy would be someone who occasionally goes out of his way to help people, like a volunteer. And I'd hardly call my definition shallow when yours seems to be normal guy = good guy. Like I said, it's not enough to be normal or not bad to be considered good. Normal people are normal. Good people are good. Bad people are bad. Most humans are just normal. That doesn't mean they're not capable of good acts, just that their natural instinct is to waffle between the two.

If by intimate area, you mean 'friendship' then yes, he's become friends with them which could lead to something. But your expectation that at least 1 of these 4 girls should like him is kinda ridiculous considering he's only interacted with most of them for what, 16 chapters? And of those 2 he's interacted with the longest, Shou was attracted to him and the other, Yuki is basically not intr in starting a relationship at the moment cause of her trauma.

As for Utsumi not attracting the girls, have you ever thought it's because he doesn't want to attract them? He was clearly going after Shou at first, so he concentrated on her. Even Yuki's coaching was focused on getting him to attract Shou, not making him an ideal friend or guy for herself. I have to question what you consider a 'good' set of circumstances for Utsumi. Is it him attracting all the girls even when he's not trying to, even girls he's not intr in? Is that what you want to see in the manga?
Well Utsu wants Yuki's attention and fails to grab it as he ends up being frend-zoned though it is obvious that he wants to be a bit closer than that by now. And don't say Yuki is not into relationship because of her trauma. As chapter 19 shows she is moving behind it and considers other guys who are not Utsu who is friend-zoned.

Your good-guy description is weird, because normal guys can do that too - from time to time the go out and help people too, so how to define that good guy for you? If it is done as a constant act then it is Saint Mother Teressa with balls, if on occasional then it is same as normal guys.
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Old 2010-01-16, 05:22   Link #455
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Heh well they don't have to be assholes to be good at getting woman being a sweet talker works too.

Anyways I'm liking this manga so far, for one thing the woman don't instantly for in love with the main character just because he's a nice guy unlike in other shonen manga where multiple girls fall in love just because the main character happens to be a nice/good guy. So it's realistic here compared to other shonen romance series. Personally I think for Utsumi to get out of the friend zone with girls he has to be more aggressive because if he keeps playing the good guy card he's gonna end up in the friend zone with the girls. If he flirts a little and does some sweet talking he'll get a girl sooner or later. Though he's not really experience but hey like they say it takes trial and error to get good at something especially at picking up girls.
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Old 2010-01-16, 05:52   Link #456
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Utsu has wanted Yuki's attention for like 2 chapters (I don't read the raws so I dont know anything beyond 16) and this time he doesn't have a tutor to help him with winning her affection. You seem to think Utsumi deserves to have girls falling for him left and right simply because he's what you call a good guy. But seriously, what has he done that should even cause the girls to fall in love with him? He's helped Yuki realise not all men are scum, which garnered him some good will but it's hardly enough to push her from friendship into the whole 'love' thing. Or god forbid that a female char doesn't like a guy even if he's a nice guy.

As for being a good guy, that depends. Do they do it consistently? Do you call someone who donates once a year a good guy? I don't think so. And considering Utsumi hasn't even done many if any good acts during the manga, he's classified as a normal guy and not a good guy.
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Old 2010-01-16, 08:30   Link #457
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Utsu has wanted Yuki's attention for like 2 chapters (I don't read the raws so I dont know anything beyond 16) and this time he doesn't have a tutor to help him with winning her affection. You seem to think Utsumi deserves to have girls falling for him left and right simply because he's what you call a good guy. But seriously, what has he done that should even cause the girls to fall in love with him? He's helped Yuki realise not all men are scum, which garnered him some good will but it's hardly enough to push her from friendship into the whole 'love' thing. Or god forbid that a female char doesn't like a guy even if he's a nice guy.

As for being a good guy, that depends. Do they do it consistently? Do you call someone who donates once a year a good guy? I don't think so. And considering Utsumi hasn't even done many if any good acts during the manga, he's classified as a normal guy and not a good guy.
Thats why I asked you to tell me how the good guy would be acting in the given situations of Utsu so we could tell the difference if he is not a good guy.

This manga focuses on romance, so you cannot say that Utsu doenst help others when we do not see, maybe he does help elders or so we just do not see it because it focuses on love affairs, thats why I am asking you to define the good guy based on those love affairs, as in how the good guy would act differently from Utsu, if he was in his shoes and you do not manage to find an answer because for you seems that the good guy is someone determined by social acts rather than such personal affairs like love.

And I am not saying that current he has done anything good to get attention, he just didn't do anything bad and thats good enough, because I hardly see how this mythical 'good guy' of yours could do the situations better. I am just saying that he needs to reform from what Yuki is trying to make out of him because obviously she's creating an ideal friend rather than an ideal guy or lover.

You do realize that I am not saying that females SHOULD like him just because he is a nice guy, what I am saying that it is NOT working at all, thats why I am talking about reforming his character to begin with.You seem to be assuming too much and inventing arguments for me even though I never argued against the thing that being a nice guy do not work nor that I think that being a nice guy should work.

If you are so sure that I argued that nice guy should win girls attention please point me that line. Because I did not say it works 100% in reality (it only works in shounen).

However, you should also remember that it is a shounen and not seinen, thus being realistic argument doesn't really apply, simply because in shounens being nice is good enough to grab females attention around you as shounens like shoujo's are more aimed to dream world and escapism from reality (even hardships are idealized) differently from seinen's or josei's.

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Old 2010-01-16, 10:09   Link #458
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Well, to be fair, I thought the way Utsumi reacted when he discovered Shou on a date with her senpai was very unselfish. He could have gotten angry, or tried to make her feel even more guilty, or even just glared at her and walked away. Instead, he congratulated her and immediately stepped aside. Later, he tried to make her feel more comfortable by talking with her normally, instead of ignoring her. All of this when he was clearly hurting on the inside. This shows that he was concerned about her feelings more than his own, which to me, is an indication of a nice person. So, even if he hasn't been shown to be a saint, there is basis for saying he is a good guy, in my opinion.
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Old 2010-01-16, 10:11   Link #459
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I can't tell you how a good guy would act in Utsumi's situation because a) I'm not a good guy so I wouldn't know. b) Utsumi's not a good guy either so his actions aren't valid as a barometer by any means. Your argument is that since I can not tell what a good guys actions are, Utsumi's actions must be good. That's doesn't follow. It might be a good guy would act like Utsumi in that situation (again this is all hypothetical) but that doesn't mean Utsumi is a good guy. If I do the same actions as someone who's a bad guy, that doesn't mean I'm a bad guy either. If I like the same sports team as an ass, that doesn't suddenly make me an ass. It's not so black and white.

And yes, the manga can be classified as a romance comedy. Not a harem -_- So tell me, where does it say that a romance comedy MUST have a female fall in love with the male in the first 16 chapters? And since when was NOT doing anything bad a way to get females to fall in love with you?

And your argument isn't that Utsumi is a nice guy, it's that Utsumi is a good guy. That's somewhat different. And yes, Utsumi is a somewhat nice guy in that he doesn't want to hurt people's feelings. Your whole point was that Utsumi was a good guy, he's not getting any hence he should go become a bad boy. As if somehow being a good guy = sure to attract female attention. I mean, do good people really think that? Cause it seems to me that if you're good and you're bitter about how females aren't attracted to you supposedly cause you're good, then perhaps you're not really good at all. And he's not even a good guy in the first place. Giving me the argument that 'maybe he helps people but it's not shown' is pointless. Why don't I ask you 'what if he bullies or torments people but it's not shown' also?

And yes, this is shounen and usually the females all just fall in love or are already in love with the main character already. However, is there anything wrong with a shonen series that DOESN'T follow that rule?
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Old 2010-01-16, 11:13   Link #460
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I can't tell you how a good guy would act in Utsumi's situation because a) I'm not a good guy so I wouldn't know. b) Utsumi's not a good guy either so his actions aren't valid as a barometer by any means. Your argument is that since I can not tell what a good guys actions are, Utsumi's actions must be good. That's doesn't follow. It might be a good guy would act like Utsumi in that situation (again this is all hypothetical) but that doesn't mean Utsumi is a good guy. If I do the same actions as someone who's a bad guy, that doesn't mean I'm a bad guy either. If I like the same sports team as an ass, that doesn't suddenly make me an ass. It's not so black and white.

And yes, the manga can be classified as a romance comedy. Not a harem -_- So tell me, where does it say that a romance comedy MUST have a female fall in love with the male in the first 16 chapters? And since when was NOT doing anything bad a way to get females to fall in love with you?

And your argument isn't that Utsumi is a nice guy, it's that Utsumi is a good guy. That's somewhat different. And yes, Utsumi is a somewhat nice guy in that he doesn't want to hurt people's feelings. Your whole point was that Utsumi was a good guy, he's not getting any hence he should go become a bad boy. As if somehow being a good guy = sure to attract female attention. I mean, do good people really think that? Cause it seems to me that if you're good and you're bitter about how females aren't attracted to you supposedly cause you're good, then perhaps you're not really good at all. And he's not even a good guy in the first place. Giving me the argument that 'maybe he helps people but it's not shown' is pointless. Why don't I ask you 'what if he bullies or torments people but it's not shown' also?

And yes, this is shounen and usually the females all just fall in love or are already in love with the main character already. However, is there anything wrong with a shonen series that DOESN'T follow that rule?
Obviously there is something wrong if an author is forced to close her website. And I made the comment about his free time because you are not capable of describing what a good guy is except for taking care of social problems that are not interpersonal, but because this manga does not pay attention to that part, and focuses on interpersonal affairs it is impossible to tell if the guy is normal or good by your definition, thats why I ask you to describe what a good guy would do different from Utsu, because you are so convinced he is not a good guy but a normal one, then you must have some definition to support your claim, but probably I am just expecting too much from you. You don't seem to even know what a good guy is except for postulating same social outer-personal relationships.

I never said that a good guy is a sure shot to get a female (it is in shounen though) just that he should change it because its not the universe where it works, and Yuki doesnt seem to know how to make a guy attractive to woman, as a love interest, rather than just a good friend.
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