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Old 2011-01-16, 20:10   Link #1921
Arturro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Its not about just one mistake. Its about Yuki being a bitch and she doesn't seem like person one would want to spend a life with or actually could stay with her unless you one has masochistic tendencies. [...]
I agree, Yuki has personality problems, she is a "realistic yandere". Usually nice and even supportive, but when her mental switch is turned on, she turns into mentally abusive witch. But you missed my point. I'm criticizing those, who condemns Yuki or Shou because of their (minor) mistakes, or for not being a virgins (for some posters virginity of fictional girls is a surprisingly big issue). If you don't like Yuki because of her nature - it's yours right. Actually I don't like her because of the same reason. But those who hate her just because she is no longer virgin are just silly.

Quote:
[...] Utsu doesn't make big mistakes at least for now. All his mistakes can never compare to Yuki or Shou ones so we can talk about different level of mistakes all together [...]
Shou has chose wrong guy instead of good guy and hurt the last one. Utsumi has chose the wrong girl instead of good girl and hurt the last one. I don't see the difference.
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Old 2011-01-16, 20:18   Link #1922
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@Darknemo2000,

You can't really compare the two since it all comes down to the mindset of each individual and how they handle the situation...

You dislike Yuki good you have that right. However to invent circumstances you think happened is hilarious. I'm referring to your Shou's hickey comment. Not once has it been mentioned other than with Utsumi. So comparing it to Yuki's is one of them moments where I can just facepalm myself with a cinder block...

As for bitchy female leads my vote goes to one your very well acquainted with, Louise...
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Old 2011-01-16, 20:22   Link #1923
Darknemo2000
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Originally Posted by Arturro View Post
Shou has chose wrong guy instead of good guy and hurt the last one. Utsumi has chose the wrong girl instead of good girl and hurt the last one. I don't see the difference.
He didn't lie about it though. He was honest about it and the hesitancy only came as a result from Yuki's hurtful actions. I think the difference is pretty big in that regard.

I still have to give credit for Shou being able to turn back to her previous self instead of running away and hiding from her past and start sulking and hurting everyone around (as again I think the school certainly is spreading rumors about her hickey's its just that the mangaka do not wanted to escalate Shou's problems as much as Yuki's thus left it out, but realistically speaking Shou is having just as much problems as Yuki did).

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Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
@Darknemo2000,

You can't really compare the two since it all comes down to the mindset of each individual and how they handle the situation...

You dislike Yuki good you have that right. However to invent circumstances you think happened is hilarious. I'm referring to your Shou's hickey comment. Not once has it been mentioned other than with Utsumi. So comparing it to Yuki's is one of them moments where I can just facepalm myself with a cinder block...

As for bitchy female leads my vote goes to one your very well acquainted with, Louise...
Louise grows up though. In the novels at least. In anime she is horrible though.

And again I don't know how it was about you but in my school the rumors were going lightning fast. She slept with him, does it make her a slut now? Is she an easy girl? Etc etc Worst was that one girl in my class got pregnant - she had it bad at school.

Hickey is pretty big thing in Japan (due to the meaning associated with it) and I am certain some of the girls noticed it and started spreading rumors just like in real school happens, and in Japan hickey is considered to be bigger deal than in here after all.

And of course someone then spread rumors about seeing Shou's boyfriend with other girl etc.

At least in my school none of the events stayed hidden - everything was rumoured even if the event happened or not, and were particularly lively if it concerned about popular boys or girls.

Japan schools are no different in that field. Of course we can say that their school is a total exception where no one notices nothing and girls are never spreading rumors of what they see in lockerooms or behind school gates, but personally I very much doubt it. I just think the author downplayed it on purpose to not make it too big and because Shou herself may be not as concerned about the rumours herself (giving her personality).

So yes, I am pretty convinced that the school knew about it and was buzzing about the whole business, just like it always does in school - there is just no way it would have went unnoticed in school, specially where jealous (or simply liking spreading the rumors) girls have eyes of the hawks.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2011-01-16 at 20:37.
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Old 2011-01-16, 20:33   Link #1924
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Jesus Christ, I honestly can't believe you are comparing the two. Let alone the fact that there's no evidence supporting this, a hickey is something that she could easily have concealed if she didn't want anyone else to see. How does that possibly compare to a sex tape passed around at school?
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Old 2011-01-16, 20:42   Link #1925
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Originally Posted by aliasxn View Post
Jesus Christ, I honestly can't believe you are comparing the two. Let alone the fact that there's no evidence supporting this, a hickey is something that she could easily have concealed if she didn't want anyone else to see. How does that possibly compare to a sex tape passed around at school?
Jesus christ, ever tried to conceal it? Its is not easy to do when you spend with other girls a lot of time in locker rooms too and Shou didnt even made an effort to hide it on the field (scene with Utsu).

Seriously just go to the school and remember what it is to have girls gossiping around. I am pretty sure Shou had her rumors about her stuff.

Spoiler for stuff:
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Old 2011-01-16, 21:10   Link #1926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arturro View Post
@jzmagic - Yuki made a mistake. A minor mistake, though she think it was a disaster. She hurt only herself. Just because of that one mistake you think she is no more worth enough to gain happiness? Shou also made an mistake, or to be more precise - she was tricked. Lots of posters here hate her, call her "spoiled" or "unworthy" of being with Utsumi. She is no different form Yuki - both made an mistake, both were tricked because of being too trusting. I suppose all Yuki or Shou haters here never made any mistake, never hurt anybody because of stupidity, always acted rationally and with dignity. Otherwise both Yuki and Shou haters are hypocrites.
Utsumi is a nice, but gutless, guy. He is not a pagan god, higher being or something. Just average guy. His partner doesn't has to be a pure maiden, there is no reason why he should be only with a girl who is able to give him a bloody sacrifice.
I'm not saying she doesn't deserve happiness, but this recent development takes the cake in terms of baggage. It was already too much to stomach her indecisiveness on Utsumi, but now she's a skank in my book. Am I being unfair? I know some would say yes but there's a certain amount of self-respect I would like girls that I root for to have. That also makes her an idiot, what did she think would happen after having their sex taped?

I hope that Yuki will have lingering feelings somewhere for Touru and they get back together in the end. After all, Touru seems to deeply regret what he did. Wouldn't mind those 2 getting back together while Risa gets with Utsumi

Also, did anyone see the movie Definately, Maybe? I sort of see similar scenarios where theres 3 love interests, but 2 of the women betrays Ryan Reynold's character, and he ends up choosing the girl who didn't hurt him. I can sort of see a scenario play out where Yuki betrays Utsumi in some way, maybe by getting back togetherh with Touru. Or perhaps Utsumi will have a mental breakdown from knowing that not only did Yuki have frequent sex with Touru, but that theres a tape of it somewhere and he ends up watching it. Then with Yuki out of the way, and Shou already disqualified for having dumped Utsumi once before, Risa ends up winning by default.

Last edited by jzmagic; 2011-01-16 at 21:28.
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Old 2011-01-16, 21:37   Link #1927
aliasxn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Jesus christ, ever tried to conceal it? Its is not easy to do when you spend with other girls a lot of time in locker rooms too and Shou didnt even made an effort to hide it on the field (scene with Utsu).

Seriously just go to the school and remember what it is to have girls gossiping around. I am pretty sure Shou had her rumors about her stuff.

Spoiler for stuff:


Easily. She could've put a band-aid on it, worn makeup, a scarf, or just taken a few days leave.

Not only are you spinning it around but you are taking something that isn't on the manga and using it as evidence. There's zero mention of Shou getting any flak for the hickey, whereas we know for a fact that the rumors were bad for Yuki back then. How many people would have to watch your sex tape before you felt humiliated? Regardless if Tooru was responsible or not (which at this point would be a big fucking "lol wut" if he isn't), the fact is she that got deeply hurt. And to make it worse there was no escaping the embarrassment, she had to go back to that place 5 days a week. So the comparison doesn't apply since - until proven otherwise - Shou never had to deal with anything that destroyed her life as she knew it.
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Old 2011-01-16, 21:49   Link #1928
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Originally Posted by jzmagic View Post
I'm not saying she doesn't deserve happiness, but this recent development takes the cake in terms of baggage. It was already too much to stomach her indecisiveness on Utsumi, but now she's a skank in my book. Am I being unfair? I know some would say yes but there's a certain amount of self-respect I would like girls that I root for to have. That also makes her an idiot, what did she think would happen after having their sex taped?

I hope that Yuki will have lingering feelings somewhere for Touru and they get back together in the end. After all, Touru seems to deeply regret what he did. Wouldn't mind those 2 getting back together while Risa gets with Utsumi

Also, did anyone see the movie Definately, Maybe? I sort of see similar scenarios where theres 3 love interests, but 2 of the women betrays Ryan Reynold's character, and he ends up choosing the girl who didn't hurt him. I can sort of see a scenario play out where Yuki betrays Utsumi in some way, maybe by getting back togetherh with Touru. Or perhaps Utsumi will have a mental breakdown from knowing that not only did Yuki have frequent sex with Touru, but that theres a tape of it somewhere and he ends up watching it. Then with Yuki out of the way, and Shou already disqualified for having dumped Utsumi once before, Risa ends up winning by default.
Dude, there is no evidence to suggest that she knew. At least wait for a translation for the chapter. I very much doubt that she did. Even if she did, having sex on tape doesn't make you a skank.


But in general I don't know what to say to some of the people in this thread. Some of your views with regards to Yuki are disturbing.
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Old 2011-01-16, 21:59   Link #1929
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I don't really think it's that big of a deal for Utsumi to know that she had sex with Touru. So what if Touru has a tape of them doing it.. and probably faps to it every night. Even though it may surprise Utsumi to know that they did that, it really has nothing to do with him. All he needs to do is keep doing what he has been doing.
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Old 2011-01-16, 22:00   Link #1930
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Wait, so people hate Yuki just because of the way she acts because she's probably scared of getting hurt again? Or am I missing something else here?
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Last edited by No Comment; 2011-01-16 at 22:13.
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Old 2011-01-16, 22:07   Link #1931
jzmagic
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Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
Dude, there is no evidence to suggest that she knew. At least wait for a translation for the chapter. I very much doubt that she did. Even if she did, having sex on tape doesn't make you a skank.


But in general I don't know what to say to some of the people in this thread. Some of your views with regards to Yuki are disturbing.
There's a lot of guys out there who would get turned off if they knew the girl they liked had a deliberate sex tape. I have a hard time seeing Utsumi not having a problem with it if that were the case.

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I don't really think it's that big of a deal for Utsumi to know that she had sex with Touru. So what if Touru has a tape of them doing it.. and probably faps to it every night. Even though it may surprise Utsumi to know that they did that, it really has nothing to do with him. All he needs to do is keep doing what he has been doing.
I think its a huge deal to him. Remember how depressed he got thinking about Shou and her ex just making out? I don't see how Utsumi can just shrug this off. And if he ever saw the sex tape, I can't imagine him not going through serious depression that take Yuki permanently out of the running.
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Old 2011-01-16, 22:21   Link #1932
aliasxn
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I think its a huge deal to him. Remember how depressed he got thinking about Shou and her ex just making out? I don't see how Utsumi can just shrug this off. And if he ever saw the sex tape, I can't imagine him not going through serious depression that take Yuki permanently out of the running.
I think he was sad that the girl he loved was slipping further away from him, rather than her not being "pure" anymore. I'm not ruling that out though.
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Old 2011-01-16, 22:39   Link #1933
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I think he was sad that the girl he loved was slipping further away from him, rather than her not being "pure" anymore. I'm not ruling that out though.
What's more he said that she became sexier.
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Old 2011-01-16, 22:53   Link #1934
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I'm just amazed at the outlandish assumption going here. When did this become 2chan?

I'd like to read the next chapter before I get so worked up that I hate all the characters for things they may or may not have done... I mean, sheesh people, they are ink on a page. No-one has done ANYTHING to ANYONE... and even if the Mangaka decides that some of his zipatoned drawings HAVE made some poor choices, we don't even have pencil tests as proof yet!
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Old 2011-01-16, 23:07   Link #1935
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I'm just amazed at the outlandish assumption going here. When did this become 2chan?

I'd like to read the next chapter before I get so worked up that I hate all the characters for things they may or may not have done... I mean, sheesh people, they are ink on a page. No-one has done ANYTHING to ANYONE... and even if the Mangaka decides that some of his zipatoned drawings HAVE made some poor choices, we don't even have pencil tests as proof yet!
Well this is typical forum discussions. Expressing theories and specualtions are very common. Expressing opinions about characters are common, not just in 2chan or any chan.
It's funny that you point out it's just an ink or drawn, better word a fiction, get people so worked up. And yet you also post some.
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Old 2011-01-16, 23:47   Link #1936
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Well this is typical forum discussions. Expressing theories and specualtions are very common. Expressing opinions about characters are common, not just in 2chan or any chan.
It's funny that you point out it's just an ink or drawn, better word a fiction, get people so worked up. And yet you also post some.
Well, I've been watching Anime for 40 years and reading Manga for 25. I've been posting on internet boards since before there was a world wide web and have seen pretty much every kind of lame argument over what are essentially drawings.

Being an artist myself, I find it amusing how angry people will get over ink, paper and typography. Forum members can say whatever they want, but man! The assumption is rife. If you go though life making assumptions about people and then basing your judgement without fact, you're going to limit yourself pretty badly...

There's still a lot of story to come from the look of things, so arguing over whether Yuki is a skank or not when we don't have that part of the story yet is pretty weak. That's all.
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Old 2011-01-17, 01:43   Link #1937
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Well, I've been watching Anime for 40 years and reading Manga for 25. I've been posting on internet boards since before there was a world wide web and have seen pretty much every kind of lame argument over what are essentially drawings.
Oh my god. How old are you? Are you buddies with our good old Vexx? You're way too experienced than my immature self.
Quote:
There's still a lot of story to come from the look of things, so arguing over whether Yuki is a skank or not when we don't have that part of the story yet is pretty weak. That's all.
Better let them play their minds. After the translation comes, then they may justify it or eat their words. It's that simple.
But to me, Yuki needs a lot of waking up to do. I read 65 and
Spoiler for Chapter 65:
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Old 2011-01-17, 02:07   Link #1938
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Easily. She could've put a band-aid on it, worn makeup, a scarf, or just taken a few days leave.

Not only are you spinning it around but you are taking something that isn't on the manga and using it as evidence. There's zero mention of Shou getting any flak for the hickey, whereas we know for a fact that the rumors were bad for Yuki back then. How many people would have to watch your sex tape before you felt humiliated? Regardless if Tooru was responsible or not (which at this point would be a big fucking "lol wut" if he isn't), the fact is she that got deeply hurt. And to make it worse there was no escaping the embarrassment, she had to go back to that place 5 days a week. So the comparison doesn't apply since - until proven otherwise - Shou never had to deal with anything that destroyed her life as she knew it.
It is based on general school life knowledge which you do not posses. Shou is walking with hickey uncovered - naturally the gossips will start. Bandait not always will help to hide it - some of them will still start spreading rumours regarding it - since it is a well known way to conceal the hickey and is done on the place where you normally dont get injured.

Wearing scraf always when you are not sick will get gossips too. Exclusive make up is always noticed by the girls.

So yes it is actually harder to hide when you think about it.

One girl in my school in shades and in an instant it started buzzing about that she was beaten by her boyfriend and is this way concealing her black-eye but in reality she spent most of the last night crying (because of her dick boyfriend).

But maybe Shou just doesn't care about what others think? And thats why her life would not even be destroyed by having the tape spread? Otherwise she would have made some efforts hiding the hickey (even though it is very hard to do at school without looking suspicious) rather than going around with it rather plainly open for a look.

Though again the main thing is that mangaka on purpose downplayed the drama regarding Shou though that hickey and then the scene with her boyfriend near the school (when he came for an apology) certainly did not gave her an easy life in terms on having various crap gossiped about you (specially if you are popular girl the gossips are stronger because of other girls).

In Yuki's situation in that sense is more screwed up since there is an evidence but at the same time we don't know if it is really Touru's fault and if it was really him who betrayed her. It is just Yuki's assumptions and if we judge based on her assumptions then Utsu also cheated and betrayed her.

While at the same time Shou is 100% sure about betrayal and gets it even thrown into her face.

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Originally Posted by n0c0ntr0l View Post
Dude, there is no evidence to suggest that she knew. At least wait for a translation for the chapter. I very much doubt that she did. Even if she did, having sex on tape doesn't make you a skank.
Actually it would make matters much worse. One thing is your girlfriend not being a virgin (it is normal), but having a sex tape of her having sex with another dude is completely different one. A lot of guys who don't really care about virgin on not thing, would still be turned off by that.

Quote:
Being an artist myself, I find it amusing how angry people will get over ink, paper and typography. Forum members can say whatever they want, but man! The assumption is rife. If you go though life making assumptions about people and then basing your judgment without fact, you're going to limit yourself pretty badly...

There's still a lot of story to come from the look of things, so arguing over whether Yuki is a skank or not when we don't have that part of the story yet is pretty weak. That's all.
You dont need to be an artist for that. People get killed over the ink for the most of human history (even way before the thing like ink came into being) not really surprising it causing much of emotions too.
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Old 2011-01-17, 06:55   Link #1939
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I generally watch the flames from afar in the forums, as I am tried of repeating arguments. But this time....

@Darknemo
Oh my. Darknemo lost all credibility when you say that Yuki's suitation is as bad as Shou's. Barring the fact that not even her close friend Mai knows about her and Kento (check out the changing room scene with Mai and how Shou have no one to confide to before Utsumi). Her MOTHER (who takes a large interest in her daughter's love life) doesn't know about Kento. As far as the manga itself is concerned, NOONE on the record knew other than Utsumi (and whoever he told this to). These already implied that Shou concealed her relationship with Kento very well. Not to mention that Kento is not in the same class or even the same school as she is now....which lowers the chance of anyone within the school now from even knowing.

As for Yuki, her trauma is probably much more servere than Shou's. Does that make her actions thus far right? Of course not. However, it does give a reasonable an understanding of why she acts the way she does? Yeah. duh. Everyone is assuming that Touru might be misunderstood, but that itself is not even confirmed in the manga yet. What if he really IS such a douchebag? What if Yuki's POV is the truth?

You are arguing with blanks when you try to portray Yuki as being drama queen and misunderstanding Touru, when none of us actually know what truly (objectively, not the Yuki-POV) happened. You know what this smells like? This smells like a SMEAR campaign. Your pathological hatred of the character make you see stuff that isn't there. Can we all stick to what is revealed thus far, and avoid inferring to the point of madness?

Or are you so delusional that you are projecting what you want to believe onto the manga? How typical, considering your behavoir all this while. Let's just take Yuki's story at its face value until we actually get to see the whole truth.

@Yuki's snappish behavoir or what some call Mild Yandere-ness
Face it, this manga is about people with flaws growing out of it. Yuki has her flaws, so does Utsumi, and the manga is about them growing together. I can't understand why people get enraged at stuff like that, while they barely bat an eye when real people (or they themselves) do hurtful things to another (be it in a relationship or not).

If you ever actually dealth with people who have real issues or trauma, very often you can provoke an irrational response if you keep pushing their buttons. Mild-mannered people can suddenly turn into raving crazies, or normally friendly people going into a sudden deep freeze. This kind of response is hardly rational, but they happen.

Many people who have serious issues become wrecks that can barely function. However, more people retain their ability to function in everyday life, and bury those issues deep. However, when their switches are turned on, they become irrational. As a result, they tend to avoid those situations. The latter is a kind coping mechanism that is extremely common. I assume that everyone who is bitching and moaning must never have worked with people like that before.

As such, Yuki's "snap" reaction happens when her issues are being pressed by Utsumi (intentionally or not). Part of her growth, the same as other people with issues, is the gradual acceptance of her own past. Thus far, she has been doing it wrong. While she largely has not let this issue bleed into other aspects of her life (her studies, her goals etc.), her approach is to want to forget and move on. Unfortunately, that is hardly the way to actually work through her issues. Let's not forget that she has been working at this alone all this time. She barely has any support from friends (none that know her past), or family (which she isolated herself from, probably due to having an uptight dad and her own sense of shame). I also doubt that she is actually seeing a councilor/psychiarist to help her with this...

Believe it or not, Yuki's NORMAL interaction with Utsumi (without the emomo) is her "true self". Her past and her issues are the one that twisted her personality during those "snap situations". This is the truth I observed from people with trauma in the past.

So where is the compassion? None. Just the bashing. Different focus aside, all this bashing is no different in nature from the bahsing from the Shou bashers. ON the record, I defend everyone in the manga, from the start (almost..I didn't defend Kento). That's how I operate...We'll at least that's how I operate in the older days (not that old really). I was tried of repeating arguments repeatedly, but this one really needs to be dealth with...

@Sex Tape
There is no indication she did it voluntarily. Touru could have done it behind her back. He could have hidden the record somewhere. Considering that from the TEXTUAL spoilers, Touru kept pestering her till she gave in (and this is the boy who she is in love with since childhood). It would be slightly OOC for her to agree to a tape, but well for now everything is up in the air...

Also, there is such a thing as couples making sex tapes with each other which is FOR THEIR EYES ONLY. That doesn't make either one a skank (unless having an adventurous sex life WITH ONE'S MATE is being skankish). People need to understand that if she DID agree to it, it was because SHE LOVES HIM and ONLY HIM then. The tape is meant for HIM only, the person she loves most in the world.

That hardly should be a consideration for a relationship she is in NOW. People need to seperate the NOW from the THEN. I can barely see how this can qualify to have any influence on whatever relationship she is in NOW. (or Netorare or what not). Did I not get the memo? Or are people not allowed to have a past? Especially when her past hurt noone but herself (and maybe Utsumi...a little...which is why he wants to know now).

Last edited by Rainrir; 2011-01-17 at 07:18.
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Old 2011-01-17, 07:13   Link #1940
cloak_and_dagger
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Pardon me if I'm wrong but how does a hickey compare to the humiliation of other people seeing your being on tape, being the target of rumours and having the uncertainty of not knowing who's seen the tape and how many copies have been made? Plus as far as I know it was only 2 years ago-if I was Yuki I'd be an introverted, untrusting, paranoid, melodramatic ball of drama, especially combined with her unresolved feelings for Touru. All those adjectives need not apply to her, but I can't believe people even try to compare the two instances at all.

Aside from that, I just remembered Yuki didn't tell Utsumi about when she saw him with Shou. Wonder if that'll have any relevance in the future..
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