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Old 2009-10-01, 02:23   Link #81
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
How sure am I? 0.5 percent is from the fact that I don't know but believe regardless, and everything else is faith.(99.5%)


Hmm...no, I *chose* to believe of course.
So you say, but your reasoning suggests you choose to do so from necessity rather than through personal understanding to not only validate for others but for yourself why you choose to believe. You try to explain it all through rather loose math and rather wayward logical explanations, but you yourself say that faith operates on a different level, so why need to use such methods to justify your beliefs to others? It tells me more of that you are still unsure and haven't really had the time (or desire?) to cogitate more on the basis of your belief. People who have tried to understand the basis of their faith would have replied in a much more confident and less roundabout manner.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:26   Link #82
Cipher
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
So you say, but your reasoning suggests you choose to do so from necessity rather than through personal understanding to not only validate for others but for yourself why you choose to believe.
Sorry, I can't follow very well but... Yeah, the necessity seems to have *some* effect but personal understanding is there as well.


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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
So you say, but your reasoning suggests you choose to do so from necessity rather than through personal understanding to not only validate for others but for yourself why you choose to believe. You try to explain it all through rather loose math and rather wayward logical explanations, but you yourself say that faith operates on a different level, so why need to use such methods to justify your beliefs to others? It tells me more of that you are still unsure and haven't really had the time (or desire?) to cogitate more on the basis of your belief. People who have tried to understand the basis of their faith would have replied in a much more confident and less roundabout manner.
I used the *roundabout* manner because of the difference of the setting----most here are atheists, am I right?

If it were a setting with a different faith, particularly religion, then I'd "reason" faith with more faith of course.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:30   Link #83
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
How sure am I? 0.5 percent is from the fact that I don't know but believe regardless, and everything else is faith.(99.5%)
So you don't know, yet you believe anyway. Yeah.

You thought I was displaying a bad attitude when I accused you of sitting on your ass and passively believing. The way I see it, I'm more and more convinced that I'm correct in this accusation.


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Hmm...no, I *chose* to believe of course.
Proof by Assertion. Simply stating the contrary to a given position does not prove the contrary viewpoint in question.

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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
Sorry, I can't follow very well but... Yeah, the necessity seems to have *some* effect but personal understanding is there as well.
Personal understanding of what? You have yet to state the basis of your belief in a logical manner.

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I used the *roundabout* manner because of the difference of the setting----most here are atheists, am I right?

If it were a setting with a different faith, particularly religion, then I'd "reason" faith with more faith of course.
And you thought this "roundabout" manner would convince who, exactly? It's just a whole load of argumentum verbosium.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:31   Link #84
MeoTwister5
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Dude you'd be surprised how many atheists will actually accept your decision and grounding and let you move on with your life if you knew how to explain your side. It's almost not a matter of what it is, but how you justify it to yourself and how confident you are in your answer.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:37   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
So you don't know, yet you believe anyway. Yeah.

You thought I was displaying a bad attitude when I accused you of sitting on your ass and passively believing. The way I see it, I'm more and more convinced that I'm correct in this accusation.
(note:Lets not get personal.) I(human), at the same time, don't know, believe, and search for knowledge. Believing is not the same as Knowing.


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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Dude you'd be surprised how many atheists will actually accept your decision and grounding and let you move on with your life if you knew how to explain your side. It's almost not a matter of what it is, but how you justify it to yourself and how confident you are in your answer.
Hm, Then may I see that example in you? Will you please justify your beliefs in afterlife and God?

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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
And you thought this "roundabout" manner would convince who, exactly? It's just a whole load of argumentum verbosium.
I was justifying the fact of "balance of reason" between Religious and other views. I wasn't justifying my beliefs.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:38   Link #86
Quzor
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Dude you'd be surprised how many atheists will actually accept your decision and grounding and let you move on with your life if you knew how to explain your side. It's almost not a matter of what it is, but how you justify it to yourself and how confident you are in your answer.
I'm inclined to agree here. This is also, in my opinion, a big problem with religion in general. There are a great many people who believe without really knowing why (RE: Mommy and Daddy made me go to church), and aren't able to clearly and concisely explain their belief structure, their religion, or why they choose to believe in what they do. On the whole, I think people are far more willing to accept something they do not believe or understand, if it is laid out in simple terms that they can comprehend. Convoluted explanations make people feel... stupid... and generally lead to arguments or bashing, in an attempt to extract a more comfortable answer.

As an aside, I'm afraid I may be to blame for the "math" issue. I interjected numbers into an example, as a way to attempt to clarify a comment made earlier. That example has since spun out of control, and appears to be delivering itself into the hands of inquisitive dismemberment.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:41   Link #87
MeoTwister5
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Well the problem with Christianity in this is that due to it's relative size, the "faith" ends up being a passed-on function in families where you simply inherit the religion of your parents. This leads to a lot of people practicing the physical aspect but not really understanding it on the spiritual level.

Passive acceptance is easy, but IMHO understanding it is a much more rewarding experience.

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Hm, Then may I see that example in you? Will you please justify your beliefs in afterlife and God?
I believe in the afterlife because I believe in an existence not limited to this physical plane, a place beyond true understanding in this three dimensional universe. I believe that God exists in his entire presence in this place. To me the afterlife is not simply a place but either an ascension or a descension, all based on a Christian sense of "karma." What you do now reflects what you will end up in when you "die". Hell exists as the repository for beings who defy the goodness that is needed in every living creature, not necessarily as a fundamental opposite of heaven. I believe in a intermediary plane similar to purgatory, where those not exactly directly fit for either place will be judged with finality. If one is deemed irredeemable, he goes to hell. If he can become better he will allowed to do so, then enter heaven.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:42   Link #88
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
(note:Lets not get personal.) I(human), at the same time, don't know, believe, and search for knowledge.
You keep asserting that you search for knowledge. I have yet to see any indication that you are doing so. How are you searching for knowledge? How ready are you to accept the possibility that the knowledge you claim to seek may be contrary to your beliefs? How is your sophistry any form of seeking for knowledge?



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Hm, Then may I see that example in you? Will you please justify afterlife?
Plurium Interrogationum. You are asking your opponent to assume that an afterlife exists, when in fact it may be anything but.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:47   Link #89
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Quzor View Post
I'm inclined to agree here. This is also, in my opinion, a big problem with religion in general. There are a great many people who believe without really knowing why (RE: Mommy and Daddy made me go to church), and aren't able to clearly and concisely explain their belief structure, their religion, or why they choose to believe in what they do. On the whole, I think people are far more willing to accept something they do not believe or understand, if it is laid out in simple terms that they can comprehend. Convoluted explanations make people feel... stupid... and generally lead to arguments or bashing, in an attempt to extract a more comfortable answer.

As an aside, I'm afraid I may be to blame for the "math" issue. I interjected numbers into an example, as a way to attempt to clarify a comment made earlier. That example has since spun out of control, and appears to be delivering itself into the hands of inquisitive dismemberment.
I don't think its possible to justify religion, by our worlds' "reason". I could state a lot of good "teachings" and hidden philosophical virtues of my religion but on end, it'll be "busted" by "scientific" explanation. That is why I went to the core of questioning "science".

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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
You keep asserting that you search for knowledge. I have yet to see any indication that you are doing so. How are you searching for knowledge? How ready are you to accept the possibility that the knowledge you claim to seek may be contrary to your beliefs? How is your sophistry any form of seeking for knowledge?
I'm still studying?? and I think. Isn't that enough searching of knowledge?
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:50   Link #90
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
I don't think its possible to justify religion, by our worlds' "reason". I could state a lot of good "teachings" and hidden philosophical virtues of my religion but on end, it'll be "busted" by "scientific" explanation. That is why I went to the core of questioning "science".
In other words, you are reverting to sophism. Noted.

I'm out for now. I have to go home to continue this, if there's even any point in doing so.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:53   Link #91
MeoTwister5
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I don't think its possible to justify religion, by our worlds' "reason". I could state a lot of good "teachings" and hidden philosophical virtues of my religion but on end, it'll be "busted" by "scientific" explanation. That is why I went to the core of questioning "science".
You don't exactly assert the validity of your own stance by debunking a rival one you know.
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Old 2009-10-01, 02:55   Link #92
Cipher
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
You don't exactly assert the validity of your own stance by debunking a rival one you know.
Um, my original stance was "balance".
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Old 2009-10-01, 04:45   Link #93
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
I'm still studying?? and I think. Isn't that enough searching of knowledge?
All I have seen you do is assert a particular "belief", then attempting inductive reasoning to apply that "belief" to reality in general, blind to the problem of induction as a valid form of reasoning. You are not truly searching for knowledge; you are merely attempting to force reality into the ill-fitting mould of your own belief system. To put it simply, you are sitting on your ass and passively believing, without truly making a real attempt to understand the nature of reality.

Spare us your sophistry, thanks.

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Um, my original stance was "balance".
Define "balance".
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Old 2009-10-01, 04:52   Link #94
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
All I have seen you do is assert a particular "belief", then attempting inductive reasoning to apply that "belief" to reality in general, blind to the problem of induction as a valid form of reasoning. You are not truly searching for knowledge; you are merely attempting to force reality into the ill-fitting mould of your own belief system. To put it simply, you are sitting on your ass and passively believing, without truly making a real attempt to understand the nature of reality.
No, I am always in the midst of searching for answers. Not doing so would be irrational. I, myself, am still trying to prove reality, and perhaps someday humans will prove it, and if that occurs, my beliefs will begin to shift.
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Define "balance".
The afterlife may not or may exist.
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Old 2009-10-01, 04:55   Link #95
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
No, I am always in the midst of searching for answers. Not doing so would be irrational. I'm still trying to prove reality, and perhaps someday humans will prove it, and if that occurs, my beliefs will begin to shift.
And yet you "believe" that your "belief" is correct, even when you can not come up with any evidence that is the case.

Tell me, how do you reconcil that with your claim that you are always searching for answers?


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The afterlife may not or may exist.
Very well. So what about it?
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Old 2009-10-01, 05:09   Link #96
Cipher
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Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
And yet you "believe" that your "belief" is correct, even when you can not come up with any evidence that is the case.
That is why its called *belief* not *fact*.

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Tell me, how do you reconcile that with your claim that you are always searching for answers?
How do I prove it? I wouldn't be discussing this issue if I wasn't interested in the first place. I guessed that I may find knowledge in this discussion. If that doesn't qualify as proof to you, then I have nothing much to say except : "believe what you want."

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Very well. So what about it?
That was my *main* point.
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Old 2009-10-01, 05:39   Link #97
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by Cipher View Post
That is why its called *belief* not *fact*.
Thank you for confirming that there is no logic to your thought processes on this matter.

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How do I prove it? I wouldn't be discussing this issue if I wasn't interested in the first place. I guessed that I may find knowledge in this discussion. If that doesn't qualify as proof to you, then I have nothing much to say except : "believe what you want."
Yet you ended up attempting to undermine the scientific process with your own "beliefs", along with all the answers that the scientific process has discovered as well as those answers which it will discover in the future. I'm not sure how you're managing to justify this to yourself, but this looks like a rejection of answers which do not fit your own belief system, more than anything.


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That was my *main* point.
In other words, your pages upon pages of response were an attempt to justify a meaningless statement. Noted.
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Old 2009-10-01, 05:47   Link #98
Cipher
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Yet you ended up attempting to undermine the scientific process with your own "beliefs", along with all the answers that the scientific process has discovered as well as those answers which it will discover in the future. I'm not sure how you're managing to justify this to yourself, but this looks like a rejection of answers which do not fit your own belief system, more than anything.
I can't follow. My way of thinking pretty simple to me.

Quote:
In other words, your pages upon pages of response were an attempt to justify a meaningless statement. Noted.
This is why I've stated that I've only been trying to state the obvious which is "there is afterlife or not". I felt that posters back then were too "one-way"---and this is whats driven me to create the "balance". I'm hoping this is the end of this "silly" argument.
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Old 2009-10-01, 05:53   Link #99
Ascaloth
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I can't follow. My way of thinking pretty simple to me.
You can come up with all sort of arcane ramblings about your belief system and how it relates to modern-day scientific endeavour, and yet you claim you cannot "follow" what I accused you of in plain simple English? Stop shitting me.

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This is why I've stated that I've only been trying to state the obvious which is "there is afterlife or not". I felt that posters back then were too "one-way"---and this is whats driven me to create the "balance". I'm hoping this is the end of this "silly" argument.
Were the majority of the posters definitively claiming that there is definitely no afterlife? I haven't the motivation to check all the way back through the page on the other thread myself, so you're going to have to show me examples of just that sort of behaviour.
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Old 2009-10-01, 06:06   Link #100
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I believe in the afterlife because I believe in an existence not limited to this physical plane, a place beyond true understanding in this three dimensional universe. I believe that God exists in his entire presence in this place. To me the afterlife is not simply a place but either an ascension or a descension, all based on a Christian sense of "karma." What you do now reflects what you will end up in when you "die". Hell exists as the repository for beings who defy the goodness that is needed in every living creature, not necessarily as a fundamental opposite of heaven. I believe in a intermediary plane similar to purgatory, where those not exactly directly fit for either place will be judged with finality. If one is deemed irredeemable, he goes to hell. If he can become better he will allowed to do so, then enter heaven.
Actually I believe that "God" will send all men to hell, and those who believed in her great plan of the White Lily will have a chance to be redeemed as females in their next life. The rest will just burn.

Come to think of it, this interesting thread eventually becomes more senseless, seemingly turning into a few adults trying coax a frog out from being stuck in a well.

On the other hand, reading the responses made me see how impatient I am with others, rather than patiently linking them to pages of information like what Ascaloth did. But judging from how ineffective that attempt has been in convincing Cipher to argue pertinently, who has been presenting his statements and arguments without proof, this thread has already been determined to end in an argumentum ad nauseam.

Sorry Reckoner, but I appeal that the mods lock this thread to prevent further discontent from spreading.
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