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View Poll Results: Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 32 21.48%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 45 30.20%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 43 28.86%
7 out of 10 : Good 18 12.08%
6 out of 10 : Average 6 4.03%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.67%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.67%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.01%
Voters: 149. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2009-10-10, 11:45   Link #241
Marion
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Originally Posted by Leinne View Post
That's one of the points, Maria wouold believe anyone to be Beatrice as long as that person says so, she's a bit gullible in that regard.
Spoiler for spoiler:
It was left out in the anime but I think Maria at some point didn't regard Evatrice as Beatrice anymore, before the first time she killed Rosa.
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Old 2009-10-10, 13:48   Link #242
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Eva-Beatrice was so cute, as expected^^ Though the pitch and 'style' of her voice kept changing, I loved it during episode 12 when she first appeared. This time though, it seemed like Itou had a hard time keeping that cute high pitch D:

9/10 for me

The coronation didn't seem as festive as the VN's. I imagined a lot more people/goats in that room as well.
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:30   Link #243
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Quote:
Eva-Beatrice was so cute, as expected^^ Though the pitch and 'style' of her voice kept changing, I loved it during episode 12 when she first appeared. This time though, it seemed like Itou had a hard time keeping that cute high pitch D:
Yeah that bothered me a bit as well. One minute she sounds like Eva/Takano (especially when she appears in front of Rosa and Maria) and next she has the high sadistic tone of her younger self.

Other than that, nice episode. A bit disappointed to see the clapping scene cut and the lack of happy/joyous feeling during the coronation.
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Old 2009-10-10, 14:35   Link #244
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
It was left out in the anime but I think Maria at some point didn't regard Evatrice as Beatrice anymore, before the first time she killed Rosa.
Yeah, she said something like "It's the real Beatrice!" when Beato showed up.
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Old 2009-10-10, 18:50   Link #245
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Lol this episode was confused with the 2 eva . Dunno how the inside eva get out .
Omg , Maria and Rosa ! Painful dead yeah .
Wtf , suddenly , Beatrice is acting shy ? she's still a child inside .
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Old 2009-10-10, 21:36   Link #246
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Btw, wanna pointed out something (maybe some1 mentioned it be4 through)....

Maria easily believed an Eva-look-alike person to be Beatrice (with some fancy "henshin" of course). So it means in ep I, the person who gave Maria the letter is not necessary to be Beato.
Personally I think that Maria doesn't look at external appearances, however she is very sensitive about people's "soul".

In the case of Eva Beatrice, her appearance was completely different from the one of the witch of the portrait and yet Maria immediately recognized her as "Beatrice". She couldn't be aware of the ceremony and the fact that Eva succeeded Beato, and yet she understood it at first glance that the person in front of her was the "golden witch".

From Maria's perspective Beatrice is a witch, and as a witch she can change her form at will. So Maria doesn't rely on her eyes to understand who is who, rather she judges a person by what she does and how she acts.

Another good example is Rosa. Even if Rosa's appearances never change, when she goes in berserker mode Maria doesn't recognize her as her mom anymore, rather she sees the "evil witch" instead.

So to conclude, it is possible that someone was perceived as Beatrice by Maria even without any kind of disguise, however I don't think anyone could trick Maria, because Maria has her own way to tell people apart.
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Old 2009-10-11, 03:44   Link #247
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Personally I think that Maria doesn't look at external appearances, however she is very sensitive about people's "soul".

In the case of Eva Beatrice, her appearance was completely different from the one of the witch of the portrait and yet Maria immediately recognized her as "Beatrice". She couldn't be aware of the ceremony and the fact that Eva succeeded Beato, and yet she understood it at first glance that the person in front of her was the "golden witch".

From Maria's perspective Beatrice is a witch, and as a witch she can change her form at will. So Maria doesn't rely on her eyes to understand who is who, rather she judges a person by what she does and how she acts.

Another good example is Rosa. Even if Rosa's appearances never change, when she goes in berserker mode Maria doesn't recognize her as her mom anymore, rather she sees the "evil witch" instead.

So to conclude, it is possible that someone was perceived as Beatrice by Maria even without any kind of disguise, however I don't think anyone could trick Maria, because Maria has her own way to tell people apart.
I would also like to add that, based on just the first 3 games episodes alone, Maria is extremely and bizzarely intelligent. I believe that she'd actually be one of the most intelligent people on that island, in fact I still believe she's one of the people most likely to be able to actually solve that epitaph if she really wanted to.
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Old 2009-10-11, 07:40   Link #248
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Higurashi made me realised that due to childhood, many common characters can have super disguise skills. So it's still possible that no matter how smart Maria is (as long as we knows how her brain or her distinguishing method work in such situation)....


On another note, If some one have a split personality, then he can kill someone even if the red word say no killer is among the 18, and can kill himself without making it a suicide. If so either Shannon or the cook is a suspect....

Oh wait, now Rosa seems to be the most suspicious. If we take out all of the magic, both time when she died she have her face blasted off. So she could strangle Maria and then fake her double...... 0_o

Why Maria have to die ;_; who will explain the magic circle and have insane laugh without Maria.....
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:18   Link #249
Marion
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Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Higurashi made me realised that due to childhood, many common characters can have super disguise skills. So it's still possible that no matter how smart Maria is (as long as we knows how her brain or her distinguishing method work in such situation)....


On another note, If some one have a split personality, then he can kill someone even if the red word say no killer is among the 18, and can kill himself without making it a suicide. If so either Shannon or the cook is a suspect....

Oh wait, now Rosa seems to be the most suspicious. If we take out all of the magic, both time when she died she have her face blasted off. So she could strangle Maria and then fake her double...... 0_o

Why Maria have to die ;_; who will explain the magic circle and have insane laugh without Maria.....
Shannon and Gohda are stated to be dead in red. Split personalities or not they are dead

Well look back on the part when Beatrice is holding Maria again. Bloody hand prints appear over her throat. If Beatrice doesn't exist then the blood had to have come from somewhere :P
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:23   Link #250
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Hm .... I just assumed those were bruises (which is of course just broken blood vessels under the skin), but maybe they are bloody handprints.
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Old 2009-10-11, 09:42   Link #251
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From a medical perspective (sorry I'm a medical student that's how I see things) it looked like perimortem buising.
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Old 2009-10-11, 10:16   Link #252
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Shannon and Gohda are stated to be dead in red. Split personalities or not they are dead

Well look back on the part when Beatrice is holding Maria again. Bloody hand prints appear over her throat. If Beatrice doesn't exist then the blood had to have come from somewhere :P
There are more than one suspect, probably.... ^^
I'm almost certain that in fact. It could be Shannon's other personality kill everyone, then lock the closed room, before killing "Shannon"...
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Old 2009-10-11, 10:53   Link #253
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wow, Evabeato was so damn cute at the begining, love her expressions when Lambda was complaining ;D and speaking of who Lambda was cute too. Coronation is one of my favourites scenes so far, but too bad it was so few people there. Bitchslapping Beato was great too in its own way XD

but that part with Maria was cruel, really really cruel, i felt sorry for the first time for a twilight victim T_T
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Old 2009-10-11, 22:00   Link #254
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So I've been trying throughout this entire series to reconcile and understand what's happening in each step, but I think I finally fell off the cliff with this ep. As someone who never played the sound novel, I'm feeling it's way too difficult to understand and enjoy the series... because at the end of every ep I always have a bunch of questions, and unfortunately, no answers.

1. So the entire premise of this game is about the events of Rokkenjima, where 18 people died and we're left with wondering whether they died by 'magic' or by 'humanistic means.' This is the 'chessboard,' so to speak, right?

2. If each question a new game, why do the events occur differently each time? Shouldn't the main events occur the same way each time so as we can figure out how each event occurred? If there are new forces (new character motives, new events that did not occur during the first experience) at play each time, how can we pinpoint a logical cause for it all?

3. The events happen once (Question I) and then it repeats itself... (for a reason I'm not quite sure) but during this repetition Battler becomes self-aware and turns into Meta-Battler and starts his challenge with Beatrice, the Endless Witch?

4. Do meta-Battler and Piece-Batter share the same perceptions? Are their actions synonymous? Can Meta-Battler influence Piece-Battler's actions? Because then what happened at the end of Question II... there a Battler who was aware of the game and the objectives, gives up, is humiliated by Beatrice, eaten and dies... only to appear later on back to normal and ready to fight???

5. Is it to be taken that we as viewers, are not supposed to trust any scene we see that occurs on the 'chessboard' except the ones that Battler experiences? And so the magical events that occur are Meta-Beatrice's way of trying to persuade us with ways as to how each of the 'pieces' were killed via magic?

But so then it's up to us to either accept that that was how they were all killed (magic girls and towers and demons and stuff) or figure out a more 'normal' explanation as to how they were killed?

6. With the succession of EvaBeato, why does the game still continue, and what is Beato's status now? I can manage to understand EvaBeato wanting to continue the 'game' on the Chessboard so the game still continues, but if Beato is not the Endless Witch anymore, does not have the servants at her beck-and-call anymore, nor her Endless powers, how is the challenge between her and Meta-Battler still going on? She wouldn't be the one that goes to the 'golden land' anymore, right? It would be the EvaBeato that would make it if the 'game' on the Chessboard makes its conclusion.

So shouldn't EvaBeato be the one trying to convince Meta-Battler now? What is the extent and role of Meta-Beato now without her powers?

It's an enjoyable anime and I do like the art and seiyuu and stuff, but trying to comprehend the story is proving to be a rather tough hurdle, and my interest in trying to understand and comprehend everything is overwhelming my enjoyment of the show.
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Old 2009-10-11, 22:12   Link #255
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1. Yes

2. Beatrice seems to control how the pieces move. She does different things every game.

3. Batter from the first arc died, met Beatrice in some after-life and challenged her. Beatrice is one creating the new game boards for them. Umineko isn't supposed to be a fair mystery by the way.

4. Piece and Meta Battler are separate but it does seem they can influence each other a bit. The Battler that submitted to Beatrice and died being eaten in game 2 was Piece not Meta.

5. That's pretty much right. What Piece Battler sees (when he isn't drunk) and the red truth are the only things you should accept as the absolute truth. Everything else is up to debate. As for the red truth, it's possible to find loopholes in it by the wording. Like how Beatrice changed her red in episode 14.

6. The game is between Beatrice and Battler. It doesn't really matter if she's no longer the golden witch. It's still her game board. Eva Beatrice is just in control of the ceremony for the game board.
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Old 2009-10-11, 22:17   Link #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winkel View Post
1. So the entire premise of this game is about the events of Rokkenjima, where 18 people died and we're left with wondering whether they died by 'magic' or by 'humanistic means.' This is the 'chessboard,' so to speak, right?

2. If each question a new game, why do the events occur differently each time? Shouldn't the main events occur the same way each time so as we can figure out how each event occurred? If there are new forces (new character motives, new events that did not occur during the first experience) at play each time, how can we pinpoint a logical cause for it all?

3. The events happen once (Question I) and then it repeats itself... (for a reason I'm not quite sure) but during this repetition Battler becomes self-aware and turns into Meta-Battler and starts his challenge with Beatrice, the Endless Witch?

4. Do meta-Battler and Piece-Batter share the same perceptions? Are their actions synonymous? Can Meta-Battler influence Piece-Battler's actions? Because then what happened at the end of Question II... there a Battler who was aware of the game and the objectives, gives up, is humiliated by Beatrice, eaten and dies... only to appear later on back to normal and ready to fight???

5. Is it to be taken that we as viewers, are not supposed to trust any scene we see that occurs on the 'chessboard' except the ones that Battler experiences? And so the magical events that occur are Meta-Beatrice's way of trying to persuade us with ways as to how each of the 'pieces' were killed via magic?

But so then it's up to us to either accept that that was how they were all killed (magic girls and towers and demons and stuff) or figure out a more 'normal' explanation as to how they were killed?

6. With the succession of EvaBeato, why does the game still continue, and what is Beato's status now? I can manage to understand EvaBeato wanting to continue the 'game' on the Chessboard so the game still continues, but if Beato is not the Endless Witch anymore, does not have the servants at her beck-and-call anymore, nor her Endless powers, how is the challenge between her and Meta-Battler still going on? She wouldn't be the one that goes to the 'golden land' anymore, right? It would be the EvaBeato that would make it if the 'game' on the Chessboard makes its conclusion.

So shouldn't EvaBeato be the one trying to convince Meta-Battler now? What is the extent and role of Meta-Beato now without her powers?

It's an enjoyable anime and I do like the art and seiyuu and stuff, but trying to comprehend the story is proving to be a rather tough hurdle, and my interest in trying to understand and comprehend everything is overwhelming my enjoyment of the show.
1. well, yeah...right.

2. Only two days when Ushiromiya family was killed was changed (and after that). The day before's events are still remained safe.

3. Yeah, you can say Meta-Battler is the Battler has already dead since EP 1.

4. No, i think there is no connection between Piece-Battler and Meta-Battler. Ex: they can't contact to each other by any means.

5. I think whether it's supposed or not, it still depends on you. Though saying it was all done by magic sounds quite ridiculous, doesn't it?

6. My opinion is that only happened in the "game board", not in Meta-world or etc. So the game master is still Beato, not Eva.Beatrice.
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Old 2009-10-11, 22:39   Link #257
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In regards to things changing on the gameboard -- personally, I don't think Beato has as much control as she claims she does. Saying she does is like admitting witches are involved in the murders. I think she has perhaps some influence, most particularly when it involves her "piece" and people she is able to have an effect on (like Maria, Shannon).

I would say that the reason why the gameboard changes with each iteration is because, like Higurashi, Umineko follows a "many worlds" hypothesis. The idea is that there are infinite universes which split off from each other based on slight variations in decisions or uncontrollable events. It's these "worlds" which Bernkastel has the unique ability to see and sort through. I don't think Beato has the ability to navigate or choose these worlds as perhaps she claims. There are aspects of the game board which are her design (for example, the typhoon) but that is all. She isn't creating each universe, she's hopping between them.
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Old 2009-10-11, 22:49   Link #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winkel View Post
So I've been trying throughout this entire series to reconcile and understand what's happening in each step, but I think I finally fell off the cliff with this ep. As someone who never played the sound novel, I'm feeling it's way too difficult to understand and enjoy the series... because at the end of every ep I always have a bunch of questions, and unfortunately, no answers.
It's difficult yes, but it shouldn't hinder you from enjoying the series just because your questions aren't answered immediatly, see it more or less a relatively equal position you share with almost everybody consuming Umineko (Of course most VN readers still have a bit more knowledge about events, but even that lessens with each episode).
You have your own chance to explain what happened and everybody can be right and wrong, this is the fun of detective fiction and mystery novels...is it not?

(I will go for the questions where I have to add things...simple yes and no don't have to be repeated everytime, I agree there)

Quote:
2. If each question a new game, why do the events occur differently each time? Shouldn't the main events occur the same way each time so as we can figure out how each event occurred? If there are new forces (new character motives, new events that did not occur during the first experience) at play each time, how can we pinpoint a logical cause for it all?
Look at it like that, there is only the power to start another game, if Beato or anybody else has the power to influence EVERY piece on the board is another question.
Assuming the magical beings are Beato's chesspieces, or the chesspiece's of 'Anti-mystery' then the human beings are the chesspieces of 'Anti-fantasy'.
If a chesspiece is placed in a certain way it may make a certain other move different from a previous game, simple chess-logic. Elliminating all the Pawns is different from maybe elliminating 3 Pawns, a Rook and two Knights, it not only hinders your enemy in different ways but also forces you to act with different pieces.

And see it from a positive side, if things would play out similar as in the first arc, you would never get to know things better, because people would always run in circles. Things resulting in different events also helps to eliminate noise that disturbs us from finding out the hard truth, what could be a non-changing culprit or a non-changing starting point that sets off the tragedy.

Quote:
5. Is it to be taken that we as viewers, are not supposed to trust any scene we see that occurs on the 'chessboard' except the ones that Battler experiences? And so the magical events that occur are Meta-Beatrice's way of trying to persuade us with ways as to how each of the 'pieces' were killed via magic?
I think we can fairly say that NOTHING can be taken the way we see it, because it may be influenced by the person who shows us the events. We are still playing a game which rules we don't yet perfectly know on a gameboard with limits and borders we are not familiar with yet.
If we start believing and disbelieving things at random or in a way that is not coherent, we might just fall off the gameboard I think.
Not everything that Meta-Battler sees has to be the truth, as he seems to have witnessed the battle between Vargilia and Beatrice and also everything that involved Eva-Beatrice so far. Yet he decided that the magical battle just might not have happened, which is a point we could start with...so we could ask ourselves, "what happens if we eliminate every 'magic' from the gameboard presentation?".
Quote:
But so then it's up to us to either accept that that was how they were all killed (magic girls and towers and demons and stuff) or figure out a more 'normal' explanation as to how they were killed?
Left to us...of course. We are as much involved in the battle with the witch as Battler is, well as far as we let ourselves get involved of course.

Quote:
6. With the succession of EvaBeato, why does the game still continue, and what is Beato's status now? I can manage to understand EvaBeato wanting to continue the 'game' on the Chessboard so the game still continues, but if Beato is not the Endless Witch anymore, does not have the servants at her beck-and-call anymore, nor her Endless powers, how is the challenge between her and Meta-Battler still going on? She wouldn't be the one that goes to the 'golden land' anymore, right? It would be the EvaBeato that would make it if the 'game' on the Chessboard makes its conclusion.

So shouldn't EvaBeato be the one trying to convince Meta-Battler now? What is the extent and role of Meta-Beato now without her powers?
As people already posted, Beato of the meta-world does not have an immediate connection to the Beatrice of the gameboard, just as Battler is not Meta-Battler...at least the rules of the gameboard dictate that.
BUT I think it also makes up one of the many inconsistencies one can encounter considering the witch's game, which can help deconstructing her 'magical truth'.
It is a question how Beato can at the same time stay the Endless witch outside the gameboard and how her meta-self can create another Endless Witch, which means she herself is loosing her position.
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Old 2009-10-11, 22:52   Link #259
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The question becomes, what (who) are Beatrice's pieces and what (who) are Battler's pieces? Since that game is "chess"...16 pieces per side, but no more than 18 people on the islands. Beatrice's pieces would seem to be her demons and furnature. Bernkastel and Lambda do not seem to be pieces but observers watching the game (or maybe they are waiting for their turn to play). Thus one would assume that Battler's family and their servents are Battler's pieces...save for two who are Beatrice's pieces. We are assuming that Battler is using white pieces and Beatrice is using black pieces.
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Old 2009-10-11, 23:04   Link #260
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The question becomes, what (who) are Beatrice's pieces and what (who) are Battler's pieces? Since that game is "chess"...16 pieces per side, but no more than 18 people on the islands.
(SNIP)
We are assuming that Battler is using white pieces and Beatrice is using black pieces.
As I rarely tire of pointing out, Maria is wearing a black king's crown.
(But now she's dead, yet the 'game' continues....)
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