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Old 2009-10-23, 12:42   Link #121
Talendra
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Im also kinda on The Small Ones side... Mihawks Eye is a rather standard display of sakki, isnt it? Whether its simple experience on Luffys side or a early form of some mantra-styled haki... who knows yet, but more importantly the input seems to come from Mihawk himself.

edit: another hint is that Luffy has a pretty shocked face the moment he imagines Mihawks cut. If it would simply be a matter of brain-development, shouldnt he look a little less surprised?

Last edited by Talendra; 2009-10-23 at 14:24.
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Old 2009-10-23, 13:33   Link #122
grey_1960
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Opinion of the Chapter
This chapter is very good. Great ending with the Kuma bots. White Beard looks serious now but I wonder what kind of information he heard about the Human weapon PX? I wonder if each one has a devil fruit abilities or if they are just walking bombs? Seeing Luffy get his ass handed to him lets you know how far Zoro has to go before he faces Mihawk.

Observation of Battle layout
Looking at the pictures the Kuma bots only have White Beard and everyone else within the main battle field surrounded. So the rest of White Beard's other ship are not surrounded but behind the Kuma bots and whats left of the marine ships guarding the bay. If i am wrong on the battle field layout correct me.

Assumptions
That means Sengoku wants to go for the head of the snake and hope the rest will fall after whitebeard and the division commanders die. This might work but the only thing is who is watching the backs of the PX if the rest of White beards ships are behind them? The pirates ships look like they could over whelm the remaining marine ships guarding the bay.

Theory
The talk between Kuma and Silvers Rayleigh in the Sabaody Archipelago Arc makes me wonder if Kuma told Rayleigh about the plans. Kuma may have hated the goverment alot so in order to defeat them he sacrficed himself to get information from them within the and give it to those who would oppose the WG.

Possible counter to the Kuma bots
To me the only thing that can rival Sengoku cards would be a legendary characters like Silver Rayleigh or another Yonkou. The marines would not be able to handle two Younkou at once. Garb already stated the limits of the marines in the Sabaody Archipelago Arc in chapter 501. They would loose alot of marines if not handled carefully and he also questioned taking two legends at once. Now Garb may not know the full picture like Sengoku, but he seems to have pretty good grasp on marine position in this story and major events that seem to happen in one piece.

I am interested to see how White Beard is going to counter this one.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2009-10-23 at 19:58. Reason: Forgot to add a thought.
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Old 2009-10-23, 14:25   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talendra View Post
Im also kinda on The Small Ones side... Mihawks Eye is a rather standard display of sakki, isnt it? Whether its simple experience on Luffys side or a early form of some mantra-styled haki... who knows yet, but more importantly the input seems to come from Mihawk himself.

edit: another hint is that Luffy has a pretty shocked face the moment he imagines Mihawks cut. If it would simply be a matter of brain-development, shouldnt he look a little less surprised?
I agree with the Sakki theory.

It looked like Luffy just responded to Mihawk's killer intent.
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Old 2009-10-23, 14:27   Link #124
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Opinion of the Chapter
Observation of Battle layout
Looking at the pictures the Kuma bots only have White Beard and everyone else within the main battle field surrounded. So the rest of White Beard's other ship are not surrounded but behind the Kuma bots and whats left of the marine ships guarding the bay. If i am wrong on the battle field layout correct me.
Kumabots should be unable to fly or swim so I am pretty sure they arrived on there by using Marine Warship, this does not bode well for NW pirates, if Marine warship penetrated pirate fleet then I am quite sure that pirates suffered some heavy casualties and lost few ships.

Marine warship carrying entire platoon of Pacifistas wields an outragous amount of firepower.
Quote:
Assumptions
That means Sengoku wants to go for the head of the snake and hope the rest will fall after whitebeard and the division commanders die. This might work but the only thing is who is watching the backs of the PX if the rest of White beards ships are behind them? The pirates ships look like they could over whelm the remaining marine ships guarding the bay.
I think that Sengoku wants to massacre every single pirate in this battle field, Marines primary objectives are to A) Kill Whitebeard and neutralize his WB pirates and B) Execute Ace, who is Rogers son.

As I explained earlier that I am pretty certain that NW pirates who remained in their ships suffered an defeat when Marine warship what carried Pacifista squad penetrated them and deliver pacifistas on pirates rear.
Quote:
Theory
The talk between Kuma and Silvers Rayleigh in the Sabaody Archipelago Arc makes me wonder if Kuma told Rayleigh about the plans. Kuma may have hated the goverment alot so in order to defeat them he sacrficed himself to get information from them within the and give it to those who would oppose the WG.
I am confident that Kuma is dead, all that remains is an automaton PX-0.

Quote:
Possible counter to the Kuma bots
To me the only thing that can rival Sengoku cards would be a legendary characters like Silver Rayleigh or another Yonkou. The marines would not be able to handle two Younkou at once. Garb already stated limits of the marines in the Sabaody Archipelago Arc in chapter 501. They would loose alot of marines if not handled carefully and he also questioned taking two legends at once. Now Garb may not know the full picture like Sengoku, but he seems to have pretty good grasp on marine position in this story and major events that seem to happen in one piece.
I agree with you here that Whitebeard pirates are having their hands full already, they certainly are not capable of withstanding entire platoon of Pacifistas.

As for possible solutions I doubt that Rayleigh is arriving, nor he could be much of an help against such number of Pacifistas.

Shanks is already engaged in his war against Kaidou, those two Yonkous are now waging war in New World, as for remaining unnamed Yonkou I doubt he will enter this war.

I suggest that strike force or intervention of Revolutionaries led by Dragon could even the scales but its not something you could count for.

Quote:
I am interested to see how White Beard is going to counter this one.
Yes I am intrested about it too, because if they cant pull something off then they will be facing massacre and their defeat will be sealed.
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Old 2009-10-23, 14:36   Link #125
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
So we have the introduction of the Fifth Division Commander Vista eh? I wonder just how many divisions the Whitebeard pirates have?
16 divisions

on page 12 (not including the cover) is that kuma or kizaru shooting the beam
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Old 2009-10-23, 15:07   Link #126
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WB going to something , i really want to see him fight or just kick some ass.
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Old 2009-10-23, 16:11   Link #127
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Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
So we have the introduction of the Fifth Division Commander Vista eh? I wonder just how many divisions the Whitebeard pirates have?

I know the question was already answered a couple of posts above me, but I just wanted to add that the information about the grand total of men in Whitebeard's crew was known to us for a couple of years now (since One Piece Yellow's release, to be more specific). There's 16 divisions, each 100 men strong (and with their own commanders, as we already know).


However, I do wonder if Whitebeard ever had the time to replace the commander that Blackbeard killed.....?
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Old 2009-10-23, 17:35   Link #128
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
I know the question was already answered a couple of posts above me, but I just wanted to add that the information about the grand total of men in Whitebeard's crew was known to us for a couple of years now (since One Piece Yellow's release, to be more specific). There's 16 divisions, each 100 men strong (and with their own commanders, as we already know).


However, I do wonder if Whitebeard ever had the time to replace the commander that Blackbeard killed.....?
Ah okay I must've missed that information.

I wonder if Whitebeard has his own elite dvision or something? Like "Division 0", similar to how Crocodile was Mr. 0 for Baroque Works.
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Old 2009-10-23, 18:59   Link #129
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Originally Posted by Prestige View Post
Shanks is already engaged in his war against Kaidou, those two Yonkous are now waging war in New World, as for remaining unnamed Yonkou I doubt he will enter this war.
Based on what we were told, that is not factually accurate. All that was stated was that Shanks intercepted Kaidou from trying to assault Whitebeard. We don't have any more information of what ensued after that clash, so it is speculation to say that they're still fighting with each other.
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Old 2009-10-23, 22:21   Link #130
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I don't really understand this. Most of you seem to assume, that it was Luffy, who was thinking, that his hands may get cut off.
To me on the other hand, it looked like it was Mihawk, who used his Haki (or whatever technique) to let Luffy see something unwanted, to stop him from attacking. I think of the scene from Naruto, where Orochimaru made Sasuke see a vision of fear to completely immobilize him.
The fact, that we see Mihawk's eyes just before seems to indicate, that we have something similar here.
To me it seemed like he was thinking about the result if he used his arms against Mihawk.

But again... lets wait till the animation is caught up with this chapter and we'll see.
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Old 2009-10-24, 00:15   Link #131
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
However, I do wonder if Whitebeard ever had the time to replace the commander that Blackbeard killed.....?
Most likely not.
There are only 14 division captains spotted by the marines. (chapter 551 17th page)
16 Division captains - Ace (2nd) & Thatch (4th) = 14.
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Old 2009-10-24, 00:30   Link #132
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
To me on the other hand, it looked like it was Mihawk, who used his Haki (or whatever technique) to let Luffy see something unwanted, to stop him from attacking.
Mihawk used almost the same expression he used earlier when he spotted Luffy just before he used his sword attack. There is a bit difference to how the eye looks in each case, but, other than that, they are pretty much the same. Mihawk had the eyes saying "I am going to seriously attack you, Luffy". You can include his killing intent there.

However, considering the serious attack that actually took place earlier, why did Mihawk want to show what he was going to do to Luffy before that attack? I don't see any purpose there. To make him run away from him? That is the man who wanted to measure his strength by attacking Whitebeard. He would have preferred Luffy to attack him, so that he can measure Luffy's strength better.

It would however make more sense, if you assign a role to Luffy there. Something inside him responded to Mihawk. And that was not the thing called logic that Luffy was not capable of using especially in situations like this. It almost looked like something happened out of his control.
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Old 2009-10-24, 05:01   Link #133
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It would however make more sense, if you assign a role to Luffy there. Something inside him responded to Mihawk. And that was not the thing called logic that Luffy was not capable of using especially in situations like this. It almost looked like something happened out of his control.
Exactly, Luffys shocked facial expression underlines this a lot. Luffy may not be a genius, but he is certainly not as dumb as to notice that Mihawk may cut his arms for the first time, the very moment he is already launching his attack. He knew from the very start, that the man infront of him is the most dangerous swordsman alive.

So he chose to run from him. He can't, so he does what Luffy always does if someone is completely blocking his path, no matter if its Magellan, Blackbeard or Mihawk: he fights. And then he stops his attack because he just now noticed in that very moment, that Mihawk wields a sword, which can actually harm him?

That doesn't sound coherent at all. Gotta agree with Fipskuul
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Old 2009-10-24, 07:05   Link #134
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Originally Posted by longnose-kun View Post
16 divisions

on page 12 (not including the cover) is that kuma or kizaru shooting the beam
From the image it's certainly...confirmed...! that the admiral kicking his beam...

Spoiler for Kizaru kick 561 page 12:


btw... I'm just realized that buggy hat is have marine symbol but he crossed it... hahahaa...

I always love the detail on every chapter OP...
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Old 2009-10-24, 07:24   Link #135
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
^Actually, I said that as well . If Haki is being used at all, then it is more believable if what we saw was Mihawk projecting his intention, rather than Luffy using Haki...
Then you don't understand as much as you think you do.

You don't just 'use' Haki or any form of Ki. Haki, or just Ki in any form is involved in every thought and action you make, it is part of everything, but is not directly used.

Let's talk about Yuuki, which means bravery, a very simple concept that's also recognised in English.

Do you use bravery to attack people, to defend, or to dodge? No.

Instead, the way you attack, defend or dodge shows how brave you are, it shows that you have Yuuki.

Same as Sakki, do you use Sakki as the weapon? No. Even if you give a deadly stare of Sakki, you're not using Sakki to kill the opponent, you're using the stare as a weapon to kill the opponent, which has very strong Sakki.

When someone displays a powerful Haki, you're resisting with you're own Haki, that's what Luffy is showing. Despite Mihawk's dominating presence, Luffy still manages to stay composed and think clearly, this is his Haki at work, in reaction to Mihawk's Haki.

Its not that I'm explaining everything with Haki, there's nothing to explain, Luffy is just dodging as usual. I'm telling you that Haki is involved in it.

And yes it shows that Luffy has character development, but most importantly, any form of character development is actually a development in Haki. Because your Ki is your character itself. Your Ki is the presence you make, what people feel from you. Whatever development you have as a character directly means development of your Ki, or Haki in this case.
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Old 2009-10-24, 07:36   Link #136
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^ That's a great explanation.
Most people confuse and think of Haki something like a special magical ability. That's why we have been discussing whether Luffy used Mantra or not. Actually every people has his own Haki, but some has very much of it depending on how ambitious they are.
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Old 2009-10-24, 07:59   Link #137
Talendra
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Well, that involvement does not explain how to crush stones with mere arrows, now does it? Otherwise an arrow shot by Luffy would have to be more powerful than an average-AL-arrow. However, that is simply not the case (well, it wasn't shown, but lets be serious...). So it is safe to assume that there actually is a way to actively use Haki in this manga.
...

It's really great that C.A. goes through such lenghts, and i surely admire his endurance, to over and over again try to convince people his version of haki is the way to look at it. Anyways, to me Oda did show us a couple of ways to use haki that are not covered by C.A.s view, and thats why i don't really care for all the ethnological implications that haki has in japanese culture. I merely try to understand the ways it's used in OP by Oda. Lets leave the rest for culture classes...
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Old 2009-10-24, 08:08   Link #138
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Well, that passivity does not explain how to crush stones with mere arrows, now does it?
I've explained it many times, please refer to the Haki thread, I do not want to repeat myself.

This is a manga where people are strong enough to throw buildings, icebergs, slice through steel or something 50 meters away, climb vertical rock faces with bare hands carrying 2 people, one in the mouth, in freezing snow etc.

And people seek explanation for arrows smashing rocks. And when there's an explanation, they don't except, but is able to accept the existence of Devil Fruits.
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Old 2009-10-24, 12:09   Link #139
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Then you don't understand as much as you think you do.
Wow, low blow...low blow....

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
You don't just 'use' Haki or any form of Ki. Haki, or just Ki in any form is involved in every thought and action you make, it is part of everything, but is not directly used.
Actually, you can actively use Haki, or else Luffy would already be able to punch a Logia user right now. In other words, Hancock already mentioned that Haki can be "mastered". If something is simply inate, then, it would already be mastered (for instance, some people are simply born clever, and no amount of extra study (etc) will enhance their cleverness, only give it further purpose or direction, consequently, their cleverness is "mastered" at birth), but by Hancock's words, the process requires training of some sort. In other words, Haki is potential, and the potential of Haki, much like the potential of a human body, can only be mastered through repreated training and use...It is not fully an inate function of the human experience it is shaped and changed through repeated use and training (i.e. everyone is born with Haki, and a few can be born with the "King's Haki", but it is only through the use of said Haki that a person can learn to actively use their Haki in specific circumstances and for specific reasons. Otherwise, Haki is simply a basic ambition that is never fully realized to it's maximum potential.).

That being said, we also already know that Haki can be directly used to enhance certain abilities or objects. An arrow can pierce stone because the user 'wills'/enhances it, etc. So your stating that it is not directly used when we already know (via Marguerite ) that it can be, is simply false...

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Let's talk about Yuuki, which means bravery, a very simple concept that's also recognised in English.

Do you use bravery to attack people, to defend, or to dodge? No.

Instead, the way you attack, defend or dodge shows how brave you are, it shows that you have Yuuki.

Same as Sakki, do you use Sakki as the weapon? No. Even if you give a deadly stare of Sakki, you're not using Sakki to kill the opponent, you're using the stare as a weapon to kill the opponent, which has very strong Sakki.
There is no point in talking about 'Bravery', considering that it is only tangentially connected to Oda's story (it is also tangental to the discussion of Haki, considering that Haki is an intrinsic force that all posses in varius degrees whereas Yuuki and Sakki are gained abilities brought about via actions and experience only (a person, living alone, would have no use for something like Yuuki or Sakki, considering that the "abilities" are only useful in regards to other creatures, but Haki is always present no matter the situation), but, again, you are misunderstanding things here. Sakki is being used. If it was not being used, then no amount of glaring would do anything to anyone. There is a specific spiritual force involved that allows the glare to gain an "edge", which in turn can harm others. In other words, Sakki is the bullet, the glare is the gun.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
When someone displays a powerful Haki, you're resisting with you're own Haki, that's what Luffy is showing. Despite Mihawk's dominating presence, Luffy still manages to stay composed and think clearly, this is his Haki at work, in reaction to Mihawk's Haki.
I am not doubting or disagreeing with the fact that there are two dominating 'pressences'/ambitions competing here. That was never my point, nor will it ever be (if this is the stance you thought I was advocating, then I apologise for the confusion).

Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Its not that I'm explaining everything with Haki, there's nothing to explain, Luffy is just dodging as usual. I'm telling you that Haki is involved in it.
And I'm telling you that I find it doubtful that Luffy 'used' Haki to know that his arm would be cut. It makes more sense if he simply either learned, through trial and error, not to stick his hand in a Lion's cage (or a Hawk in this case), or he was able to "experience" Mihawk's projected intentions and know not to use an attack. Whatever the case, Luffy's Haki does not appear to be, for me at least, the deciding factor to the specific image in question.

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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
And yes it shows that Luffy has character development, but most importantly, any form of character development is actually a development in Haki. Because your Ki is your character itself. Your Ki is the presence you make, what people feel from you. Whatever development you have as a character directly means development of your Ki, or Haki in this case.
Duh....
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Old 2009-10-24, 12:42   Link #140
ellifeedn
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Hmmm... Haki - dominant willpower, Sakki - killing intent, Yuuki - bravery. I'm wondering if there are anymore we should know of.
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