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Old 2009-10-24, 13:05   Link #141
C.A.
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I hate multi-quoting so I'll just post a single reply:

I've always been saying that Haki is both active and passive, since my very first post in the Haki thread.

And its not that Haki is always passive, its Ki, that's always passive. Your Ki will become specific forms of Ki only when you have an intention, in this case, it is active. You passively have Ki, as long as you're alive. Your Ki becomes Yuuki when you're brave, Sakki when you're murderous and Haki when you're ambitious. All forms of Ki is fundamentally your will and intention.

So Haki is not always present, you will not have Haki if your intention is not strong enough, at least not strong enough to be ambitious or dominating. When you activate your Haki, it just means that your mood changes to it, your actions have Haki behind it. You are using it, but you are not using it directly as the weapon. Your attacks, defence, dodging, every action will have the intention of dominating behind it, they are imbued with Haki, just like how the arrows are imbued with Haki. In this story where people are superhuman strong, combined with the Japanese belief where your Ki is passed directly into your weapons, even arrows can carry your Haki and smash rocks.

Can you train yourself to become bolder, to have more Yuuki to overcome fear? Yes.
Can you train yourself to become healthier, to become more Genki? Yes.
Can you train yourself to become a killer, to have Sakki? Yes.

Just like you can train yourself to become more ambitious, have greater determination, to have Haki. Every action you made and every experience gained from them adds to your Ki.

But none of your Ki is used directly as the weapon, you are just emitting this presence, which changes with your mentality and affects the opponent, who will react to your presence and mentality.

I originally posted this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
To dominate a fight, you must also dominate what your opponent is thinking. To have the dominating spirit, is to have Haki.

Mihawk clearly dominated this fight, but he was impressed by Luffy being so composed. Luffy is resisting Mihawk's Haki and trying to gain some ground, this means he is using his own Haki to resist Mihawk. And its also why Luffy can anticipate and visualise Mihawk's attacks, he could almost read Mihawk's mind, if he improves, he will dominate the opponents thoughts.
Replace Haki with Yuuki, bravery.

If Luffy is brave enough, he can stay composed and make the right decisions. He will be able to anticipate and visualise Mihawk's attacks.

In martial arts or any fight, you know someone is a great fighter just by looking at how composed he is. You can feel that he is experienced just by looking at him. All his experience has given him this Ki, it could be Yuuki, Sakki, Touki or Haki, its something we can see and feel from him.

This is exactly what Mihawk saw from Luffy and how Luffy has Haki in this fight.

If you're not disagreeing with the fact that Luffy and Mihawk's intentions are competing in this fight, yet you're not seeing Haki at work, it means that you haven't fully understand the concept.

The fact that there's this clash of wills in this fight, it means that every action that happened has Haki in it. A clash of intentions, a clash of Haki.

I've never said that Luffy used Haki just to anticipate attacks, I said because he's feeling Haki in him in that fight that's why he could remain calm and composed to do all the right actions.

When you have the right Ki(attitude), you do the right things.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellifeedn View Post
Hmmm... Haki - dominant willpower, Sakki - killing intent, Yuuki - bravery. I'm wondering if there are anymore we should know of.
Well, a dictionary search of the word Ki shows this: http://en.kanjiroushi.net/html/searc...%97/wordjap/1/
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:17   Link #142
james0246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
...
If you're not disagreeing with the fact that Luffy and Mihawk's intentions are competing in this fight, yet you're not seeing Haki at work, it means that you haven't fully understand the concept.
...
That is not what I said at all. Rather, as the conversation original evolved from a comment Flipskuul made (about Luffy predicting Mihawk's attack), I do not see Haki, to use your own terminology, being used actively here. I have never doubted its basic passive nature/presence in the universe and every character (as you well know, considering I was, with you, amongst the first on this board/forum to actively detail the all-encompassing nature of Haki in the One Piece universe (I simply stayed away from carrying that same basic nature to the "Real World", something you have no problem doing since you come from the culture that "created" the basic philosophy in-question)), rather I have endlessly said that the active use of Haki is facilitated by its physical use and training (which you are partially agreeing with). Consequently, and to clarify my stance somewhat, I do not see Luffy actively using Haki in this fight (or at least the scene in question), but I have never once questioned his constant never-ending passive use of his Haki.

That being said, I don't think you can train to have "greater ambition" (to paraphrase part of your post), rather you can learn to actualize the potential of your ambition, rather than simply increasing your ambition...Ex: Luffy choose to try and become the Pirate King because he already had the Haki potential necessary to potentially become the Pirate King.

Last edited by james0246; 2009-10-24 at 13:27.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:25   Link #143
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
That is not what I said at all. Rather, as the conversation original evolved from a comment Flipskuul made (about Luffy predicting Mihawk's attack), I do not see Haki, to use your own terminology, being used actively here. I have never doubted its basic passive nature in the universe and every character (as you well know), rather I have endlessly said that the active use of Haki is facilitated by its repeated physical use and training (which you are partially agreeing with). Consequently, and to clarify my stance somewhat, I do not see Luffy actively using Haki in this fight (or at least the scene in question).
I see we are almost reaching common ground but there's still some disagreements.

Mainly we are viewing 'passive' and 'active' differently.

Here's how I view 'active' and 'passive' Haki and how I used to explain it.

Passive: People fear or respect you because of your reputation or how you physically look. You look fearsome or respectable or is a famous/infamous person. You have passive Haki, people feel an air of superiority from you.

Active: You're intentions are set, you are doing something with a strong determination. Your enemies feel intimidated by your performance, your allies feel that they can win.

With that, I believe that Luffy has activated his Haki in this fight, because his intentions is strong against Mihawk. As long as there is a powerful clash of wills, the Haki is active.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:34   Link #144
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^That is where we differ. I view "active" Haki as being a specific or specialized ability (predicting the future, etc) whereas someone's presence is always "passive" (since it is simply their presence). Consequently, the Instant K.O. powers that we saw Luffy, Rayleigh and Shanks use is passive in nature, since it not a direct attack, per see, but rather simply who these individuals are (in fact, from Marco's words, the restraint of one's Haki is active in nature, but the Haki itself is passive), whereas Rayleigh blocking Kizaru's Light Saber is an Active ability (due to its specificity).

In other words, the application of one’s Haki is what changes its nature from passive to active.
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Old 2009-10-24, 13:48   Link #145
C.A.
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Yes exactly, I don't think we can agree, so I'm going to further break it down using the common RPG skill system:

Passive: Usually passive skills add to your stats, skill masteries, passive auras etc. They are always in effect unless you get some negative status. This is the passive Haki or Ki that one emits.

Active: This usually becomes a bit more complex, since they are more varied and have more effects.

Active auras, you have to cast the aura as a buff to affect party members or enemies. This is just like how Luffy can suddenly change his mood and become serious, he is buffed by his active Haki.

AOE or 'warcries', you emit a powerful burst followed by a lasting effect. This is just like Luffy and Rayleigh's Haki burst/stare. They stun the enemies and leave the unstunned weak, they become buffed after that.

Personal buffs, you activate this skill and your weapon, attack or defence becomes stronger. This is just like how Haki is used to attack, defend or imbue bows and weapons.
---------

The above is how I view Haki, note that I did not include Haki as an attack skill itself. Unless Oda shows Haki being used like Kamehameha, I don't see Haki being used directly as an attack. Haki is mainly buffs, auras that affect each character.

And Rayleigh kicking Kizaru basically is because he had a very high mastery of passive Haki. Or that he actively buffed himself before entering battle.

Luffy did a warcry when fighting the sisters. He also had stronger passive Haki after that, noted by Blackbeard and felt by Mihawk. Luffy basically activated his Haki for this entire war. But we have yet seen him do a warcry, which will give him the strongest buffs.
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:56   Link #146
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Ah, a good ol-fashioned Haki debate. By gum, it's been a while since we've had one of those! Anyway, methinks that any further in-depth discussions on the subject should be taken to this thread....



Anyway, I wanted to bring up this crazy theory again that I made in the last chapter thread about Garp's subordinate Bogart being a possible traitor to the marines. As I said in that thread, we haven't seen or heard from him since the Water 7 storyline and I find that suspicious since we've already seen a bunch of obscure marines on the battlefield (like those VAs that Doflamingo screwed around with back in chapter 234). Was he the one to open Marineford's gate of justice? Is he a spy for Dragon like Kuma? Or does he have his own agenda? So many questions, but who knows how long it'll take before we get any answers.......
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Old 2009-10-24, 16:17   Link #147
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Very interesting conversation we have here. I'll give my thoughts on this Haki matter.

In the One Piece universe, everyone has passive Haki. It is their presence from which they use to intimidate others or command some kind of respect. I'll give an example of the latter case. Back in Jaya, Blackbeard was very impressed with Luffy's conviction that Sky Island does exist and that he refused to fight back against Bellamy. To quote Blackbeard here, he said, "They can laugh at us all they want. Because when you aim high, you often come across fights that just aren't worth fighting." Luffy did just that, and consequently he garnered a lot of respect and admiration from Blackbeard. This is passive Haki at work here.

However, not everyone knows how to actively use their Haki. Based on what we've seen, Haki augments destructive power and allows one to bypass the defenses of any devil fruit user. Take Moria vs. Luffy for example. If Moria was capable of actively using his Haki, he would have killed Luffy when he was crushing him inside of the Black Box. Being hit with a force that split an island in two can kill anyone, but Luffy survived because he's practically immune to blunt physical blows. This proves that the statement at the top of this paragraph is correct.

As for Luffy hesitating to attack Mihawk with a Bazooka, why can't people also accept the possibility that Luffy's realization of having his arms cut off was for the sake of the story? If Mihawk sliced off Luffy's arms, Luffy could then say goodbye to his dream of becoming the pirate king. He would no longer be able to fight properly without his fists, for they are an indispensable part of his fighting style. He needs his fists to fight at his best. You can't have something like this happen to the main character all because of recklessness; and we know that ever since Impel Down, Luffy has grown well beyond that thanks to Jimbei's influence.

Edit: Sorry marvelB. I was in the process of typing this before you posted your post. This will be the one and only post I make on Haki in this topic. Should further discussion arise, I'll take it over to the thread you directed us toward.
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Last edited by Blackbeard D. Kuma; 2009-10-24 at 16:41.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:27   Link #148
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I guess people are saying luffy use some form of haki because we have never seen oda go out of his way to show what going to happen if he did a certain move.
Most of the time you just have luffy saying i can't get hit by that or he says he has to avoid a certain attack etc etc .
Any way luffy going to learn how to use it, if he did use it .One of the easy ways for us to see luffy use it is how oda did it in this chapter.

We know you can do many thing with haki.

Make people or animals feint ( done by luffy already)
See how the enemy going to fight.( maybe done by luffy this chapter maybe not)
Make weapons stronger ( don't think luffy going to do this he fight with his fist)
Bypass DF powers ( luffy next step if he use haki this chapter )

Maybe mihawk was giving off a very strong sakki and thanks to that luffy was able to use another form of haki which allow him to see what would happen if he attacks him.
Or it could just be luffy learn , but even when luffy learn gear 2 or 3 or did any moves did oda show us luffy thinking about it or what going to happen. He just does it.

I am not to certain as it could go either way .
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Old 2009-10-25, 00:55   Link #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
I've always been saying that Haki is both active and passive, since my very first post in the Haki thread.
I didn't want to quote the whole post for a few sentences. I think you are way over analyzing haki and its use here. Not much has been shown and told on it in the story, so it creates a lot of mystery, but assigning too much meaning on it will make us miss the simplest thing Oda might have intended to show.
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Old 2009-10-25, 11:57   Link #150
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Apart from the current Haki discussion, there is something i have been wondering for quite a few weeks and chapter 561 just added to that... it's about the Marines capability to use extremely powerful AoE attacks. For instance after Aokiji "created" the battlefield and WB's crew left there ships... we few well aimed attacks from Akainu - you know, the kind that was shown to be able to evaporate Aokijis ice - and a lot of DF-using pirates would have found themselves drowning. Kizaru is also a very intersting example... remember how he kicked that tree in SA apart? Why is he fighting single-fights (as displayed in 561) instead of spamming such AoE stuff to get rid of the fodder.

In this chapter we see Mihawk making a noname attack which slices up the frozen tidal wave... if the angle would have been different, there would have been a lot of casualities, thats for sure.

From a writers point of view its extremely obvious why he is not having the characters go for such AoE spamming. However, i wonder if anyone can think of any in-story reasons for such behaviour ?
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Old 2009-10-25, 12:52   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Talendra View Post
Apart from the current Haki discussion, there is something i have been wondering for quite a few weeks and chapter 561 just added to that... it's about the Marines capability to use extremely powerful AoE attacks. For instance after Aokiji "created" the battlefield and WB's crew left there ships... we few well aimed attacks from Akainu - you know, the kind that was shown to be able to evaporate Aokijis ice - and a lot of DF-using pirates would have found themselves drowning. Kizaru is also a very intersting example... remember how he kicked that tree in SA apart? Why is he fighting single-fights (as displayed in 561) instead of spamming such AoE stuff to get rid of the fodder.

In this chapter we see Mihawk making a noname attack which slices up the frozen tidal wave... if the angle would have been different, there would have been a lot of casualities, thats for sure.

From a writers point of view its extremely obvious why he is not having the characters go for such AoE spamming. However, i wonder if anyone can think of any in-story reasons for such behaviour ?
Sengoku and admirals already prepared a plan to totally wipe out pirates in marine HQ.

Whitebeard is also watching over battlefield I guess both sides are hesitant to go all out because that would lead in catastrophic amount of casualties for both sides.

Should admirals go all out then I am sure Whitebeard and other Devil fruit users in Whitbeards forces would have to retaliate resulting in total chaos, those who would survive such onslaught could not probly keep themself as victors.

Also if it would go for that then it would be pretty easy for pirates to escape during mayhem and Sengoku does not want any pirates to walk away from this.

and another point is that such showdown would be pretty dismoralasing and underwhelming to marines, it would just show that only 3 admirals can do anything at all and rest of marines are just fodder.

Current plan what Sengoku is executing is aiming for total victory for marines leaving no survivors and showing that marines are formidable war machine as their own.
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Old 2009-10-25, 12:59   Link #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talendra
Apart from the current Haki discussion, there is something i have been wondering for quite a few weeks and chapter 561 just added to that... it's about the Marines capability to use extremely powerful AoE attacks. For instance after Aokiji "created" the battlefield and WB's crew left there ships... we few well aimed attacks from Akainu - you know, the kind that was shown to be able to evaporate Aokijis ice - and a lot of DF-using pirates would have found themselves drowning. Kizaru is also a very intersting example... remember how he kicked that tree in SA apart? Why is he fighting single-fights (as displayed in 561) instead of spamming such AoE stuff to get rid of the fodder.

In this chapter we see Mihawk making a noname attack which slices up the frozen tidal wave... if the angle would have been different, there would have been a lot of casualities, thats for sure.

From a writers point of view its extremely obvious why he is not having the characters go for such AoE spamming. However, i wonder if anyone can think of any in-story reasons for such behaviour ?

Hope this answers it

This battle happening right now between White Beard and the Marines is a whole different battle. Majority of the characters in the Sabaody Archipelago Arc were weaker and new comers entering in the new world. White Beard's crew can rival that of the three supreme admirals. When you have some one powerful like that you don't want to take your attention away from them. Why didn't Kizaru take out Luffy and his crew in the Sabaody Archipelago Arc? He had Silvers Reyleigh to fight with. Same goes for this war between White Beard and the Marines. It is different when you have someone of equal power to contend to. All the power houses don't want to take there eyes off each other. Both sides are waiting for each other to make a mistake.

Second Admiral Kizaru, Akoiji, and Akainu are not the highest rank in the battle field anymore. Sengoku is the highest in the marines and he is present at the battle field. Same goes for the pirates, White beard is the supreme commander for that side. Everyone below is nothing more than chess piece on the battle field. Your right that all these power house could go all out but they have orders to follow. This is how battles are conducted.

Third its seems like both sides are just waiting to see what the other side has. Because White Beard knows its a trap. I just want to know what White Beard brought from the new world to challenge the Kuma bot army.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2009-10-25 at 13:24. Reason: Forgot to add a thought.
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:04   Link #153
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talendra View Post
From a writers point of view its extremely obvious why he is not having the characters go for such AoE spamming. However, i wonder if anyone can think of any in-story reasons for such behaviour ?
Let's see here .

Aokiji - He's too lazy to spam his Ice Age.

Kizaru - Unlike the Sabaody Archipelago, Marineford is the home of Marine Headquarters and one of the 3 strongholds of the WG. For the sake of the marines and WG, it would be courteous that he doesn't "overdo" anything by shooting lazers all over the place. The costs to repair all of the damage would be very high, and I'm sure Sengoku wouldn't appreciate that.

Akainu - The loyal dog of the marines. Perhaps he's awaiting orders from Sengoku. He's also taken the responsibility of being the only admiral to stay right beside the execution platform should there be an emergency. After all, he did say, "Jeez...if all of us are out there, who is left to protect this place?"

Mihawk - Feels that the unworthy (fodder, if you will) don't deserve to taste his powerful slashes. Only those of exceptional caliber deserve that privilege.

Crocodile - He would rather have the delight of seeing someone slowly die just as they are being impaled by his hook. He is a sadist, after all. Sandstorming everything in his path would spoil the fun and make things too easy.

Whitebeard - He has the power to destroy the world. Nuff said .
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:24   Link #154
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Heh, yea, guess youre right about Whitebeard

However, for the Marines side:

Being afraid of having too much colleteral damage on structures - most of the current battlefield is just frozen Seawater, isnt it? Nothing to care for here.
Also, even if, wouldn't any structural damage more preferable if it shrinks down the pirate forces by a very large amount? The rampage currently going on (and increasing in intensity) is very likely to leave large parts of MHQ as ruins as well.

My point is not so much individual character views, since i would expect even a lazy Aokiji or follow-orders-to-the-letter Akainu to go out of their usual way at this point in OP-history, it's a war about the future of the OP-World after all, isn't it? Also Sengokus orders / Marine forces priority should actually be to maximize efficiency in order to minimize their own losses.

So especially the beginning of the war, before the battling forces engaged in close combat was a rather good opportunity.
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:52   Link #155
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talendra View Post
However, for the Marines side:

Being afraid of having too much colleteral damage on structures - most of the current battlefield is just frozen Seawater, isnt it? Nothing to care for here.
Also, even if, wouldn't any structural damage more preferable if it shrinks down the pirate forces by a very large amount? The rampage currently going on (and increasing in intensity) is very likely to leave large parts of MHQ as ruins as well.

My point is not so much individual character views, since i would expect even a lazy Aokiji or follow-orders-to-the-letter Akainu to go out of their usual way at this point in OP-history, it's a war about the future of the OP-World after all, isn't it? Also Sengokus orders / Marine forces priority should actually be to maximize efficiency in order to minimize their own losses.

So especially the beginning of the war, before the battling forces engaged in close combat was a rather good opportunity.
You're absolutely right, but here's the simple and most truthful answer for you:

Oda wouldn't have Whitebeard and his forces get instantly obliterated by a barrage of attacks since that would be very anticlimactic. This war has been hyped up for over a year, and to have the WG win so abruptly and easily would be bad writing. It would also be like a slap in the face to the Whitebeard (aka Strongest Man in the World), given we wouldn't even see what he's capable of and that he wouldn't get the chance to put up a fight. It's all for the sake of the plot, just like there have been many times where Luffy should have died already but this obviously could not happen due to the aforementioned reasons and because the story would be over.
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Old 2009-10-25, 15:06   Link #156
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By the way, besides Luffy and Buggy, I wonder who else will end up getting a bounty raise by the end of this storyline? I think Crocodile's a possibility, since he's fighting against both Jozu and Doflamingo at the same time (you really think the government will make him one of the seven again after THAT?). Plus, I recall Oda saying in an SBS that Crocodile's bounty would have doubled if it were still active around the Alabasta storyline..... well, after all the trouble he's caused at Impel Down and Marineford, it's probably guaranteed to triple at this point.




But with that said, I'm still more interested in Buggy's bounty raise than anyone else's. I still think he'll end up getting a bigger bounty than Luffy not only due to his connections to Gold Roger's crew, but the meticulously calculated string of misunderstandings that he's been knotting together since his escape from Impel Down......
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Old 2009-10-25, 15:39   Link #157
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I think Crocodile's a possibility, since he's fighting against both Jozu and Doflamingo at the same time (you really think the government will make him one of the seven again after THAT?).
Well, the WG would be appreciative of any kind of help in eliminating Whitebeard and his forces. Therefore, I don't think they would mind at all that a traitor like Crocodile would inadvertently (he's trying to kill Whitebeard for his own personal reasons, not for the benefit of the WG) lend them a hand by fighting off Jozu. As for not getting along with Doflamingo, the WG knows very well that there is friction amongst the warlords, so this kind of disharmony should be no surprise to them given that it's very difficult for them to act as a cohesive unit.

In other words, I don't think the WG wouldn't take back Crocodile because of him fighting against Doflamingo, but rather because he's already betrayed them in the past and they can no longer trust him again.
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Old 2009-10-25, 16:16   Link #158
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In other words, I don't think the WG wouldn't take back Crocodile because of him fighting against Doflamingo, but rather because he's already betrayed them in the past and they can no longer trust him again.

Yeah, that's also how I see it. I mean, the guy was ready to commit mass genocide so he can take over an entire country and steal a legendary weapon that's powerful enough to overthrow the WG. If that alone isn't enough of a reason for Crocoboy to be permabanned from the Shichibukai, then I dunno what is. Attacking Doflamingo is just adding fuel to the fire.......



I still feel certain that the supernovas are the best potential replacements for the Shichibukai, though. There're 2 spots open now that Blackbeard and Jinbei abandoned their positions (Hancock's currently in danger of losing her status also, so that'll probably leave a third spot open, as well). Methinks the government won't have much trouble getting those aspiring rookies to join their ranks. I still see Kidd, Law, and Drake as the best candidates for the position (particularly the former two, since they stood out the most amongst the other nine rookies at Sabaody in the first place).......
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Old 2009-10-25, 16:52   Link #159
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I still see Kidd, Law, and Drake as the best candidates for the position (particularly the former two, since they stood out the most amongst the other nine rookies at Sabaody in the first place).......
I doubt that Tenryoubito would allow Kid and Law to be Shichibukai after Shabaody incident. I know they didn't do anything offensive then, but their existence in such a place and in such a moment is enough. You know how spoiled Tenryoubito are and how their brain works...
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Old 2009-10-25, 17:02   Link #160
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
I still feel certain that the supernovas are the best potential replacements for the Shichibukai, though. There're 2 spots open now that Blackbeard and Jinbei abandoned their positions (Hancock's currently in danger of losing her status also, so that'll probably leave a third spot open, as well). Methinks the government won't have much trouble getting those aspiring rookies to join their ranks. I still see Kidd, Law, and Drake as the best candidates for the position (particularly the former two, since they stood out the most amongst the other nine rookies at Sabaody in the first place).......
The key word you used here was "potential", and you are correct because at the moment it seems like they lack the sufficient power needed to become a warlord. I mean, 4 supernovas were effortlessly defeated by Kizaru, and we know that the current and former shichibukai are a lot closer (some perhaps are equal, if not stronger) to the admirals.

To be fair though, the shichibukai all started out as rookies at some point. I'm sure that if we compare them now to when they were offered the position quite a few years back, the difference in power would be quite big. The supernovas just need time to grow, and then they'll be just as formidable as the shichibukai.
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