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Old 2009-10-19, 15:23   Link #1
einhorn303
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Forum reorganization (Was: New "CR" links)

I think this is a good idea and I'm happy AnimeSuki is doing it. I was just thinking though, for the buttons on each series thread, wouldn't it make more sense to link to the series page instead of the CR frontpage?

I'm kind of off put about how the threads go in "Fansubbed" instead of "Licensed" now. I get the idea, but along with the misleading criteria for "Unaired," it might be a good idea to change "Fansubbed" to "Currently Airing" and "Unaired" to "Untranslated," or something more reflective of what they actually mean. Also, for people used to just looking through the Licensed subforums for series threads, it adds some confusion and inconvenience.
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Old 2009-10-19, 15:31   Link #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
I think this is a good idea and I'm happy AnimeSuki is doing it. I was just thinking though, for the buttons on each series thread, wouldn't it make more sense to link to the series page instead of the CR frontpage?
I've thought about that as well, but unfortunately the "Thread Prefix" feature of vBulletin (forum software) doesn't quite work that way - they can't be customized by thread. And by default they don't contain links anyway (as you can see in this [Feedback] forum).

I suppose I could change the link to the A-Z index on Crunchyroll, which would mean one click less, but I suppose that could be more confusing to anyone not aware what kind of site Crunchyroll is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by einhorn303 View Post
I'm kind of off put about how the threads go in "Fansubbed" instead of "Licensed" now. I get the idea, but along with the misleading criteria for "Unaired," it might be a good idea to change "Fansubbed" to "Currently Airing" and "Unaired" to "Untranslated," or something more reflective of what they actually mean. Also, for people used to just looking through the Licensed subforums for series threads, it adds some confusion and inconvenience.
Restructuring the forum is a topic that has been recently discussed by moderators (in private), but we haven't found a good solution yet. It is indeed a bit tricky to find series discussion threads now. A "time based" approach (such as the one you are more-or-less proposing and similar to how the series discussion forums are managed) is an option. But other suggestions for a new forum structure for series discussion threads are welcome.
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Old 2009-10-19, 15:36   Link #3
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It's also confusing to me, given that other streaming series, such as those under Funimation's streaming service, are not listed under Fansubbed, despite the fact that those are no more or less licensed than CR's.

I mean, it's new territory for everyone, structurally speaking, but finding threads is a bit confusing to me now, as well. Part of it may just be familiarity with the old structure, and I'm sure I'll adapt quickly enough. However, separating out CR's licenses from other streaming series licenses doesn't make any logical sense to me. While it's true that you could argue that eventually, Funimation will likely release their streaming series to DVD (I'm sure they'd like to, anyway), it's not a foregone conclusion until such time as an announcement is verified.

Obviously, everyone here has put a lot of thought into the current setup, so I'm not trying to nitpick it to death, but I fear that putting only some provider's licenses under "Fansubbed" will discourage licensors from letting us get simulcast subbed episodes legitimately, should that be our delivery method of choice.

EDIT: Additionally, could the CR shows please go back into the licensed series database, assuming they used to be there? As it stands, it's completely at odds with the Licensed Series thread, where it's correctly stated that CR owns these licenses. But then, should I go to find them in the database, I can't.

Last edited by Doria; 2009-10-19 at 15:46.
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Old 2009-10-19, 16:15   Link #4
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Originally Posted by Doria View Post
I mean, it's new territory for everyone, structurally speaking, but finding threads is a bit confusing to me now, as well. Part of it may just be familiarity with the old structure, and I'm sure I'll adapt quickly enough. However, separating out CR's licenses from other streaming series licenses doesn't make any logical sense to me. While it's true that you could argue that eventually, Funimation will likely release their streaming series to DVD (I'm sure they'd like to, anyway), it's not a foregone conclusion until such time as an announcement is verified.
The revised structure works as follows:

1) Is the anime series licensed for (eventual) release on DVD or Blu-ray?*
Yes -> Thread belongs in "Licensed" forum.
No -> Continue below.

2) Is the anime series available (as fansub or streaming) with English subtitles?
Yes -> Thread belongs in "Fansubbed" forum.
No -> Thread belongs in "Unaired" forum.

But once again, this forum structure is not ideal - so suggestions are welcome.

*) We assume Funimation and Viz simulcasts will be released on DVD or Blu-ray eventually: it's not a matter of "if", but "when". In case of Dragon Ball Kai, it's based on DBZ, which is licensed by Funimation, which also holds the license for pretty much everything else Dragon Ball anime related.
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Old 2009-10-19, 16:33   Link #5
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Why not just make a "Streaming" subforum? Or rename "Fansubbed" to just "Subtitled"? Having those in the "Fansubbed" section is just going to create confusion like the old "MFI" tag did.
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Old 2009-10-19, 16:43   Link #6
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Why not just make a "Streaming" subforum? Or rename "Fansubbed" to just "Subtitled"? Having those in the "Fansubbed" section is just going to create confusion like the old "MFI" tag did.
Both of those ideas have been suggested and are under consideration.

The problem I see with renaming "Fansubbed" to "Subtitled" is that "Subtitled" would include all those licensed DVD releases as well. Most of the streaming titles are also availbale as fansubs so "Fansubbed" seems more applicable.
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Old 2009-10-19, 16:48   Link #7
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Question

How does the new CR designation affect the discussion of fansub efforts for those series? Previously, Crunchyroll-licensed series were considered fully licensed and posts mentioning fansub groups were disallowed. Are fansub group references now allowed since the Crunchyroll series' threads are in the fansub forum? I'm asking in order to know whether to report fansub group posts in CR show threads for post violations.
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Old 2009-10-19, 17:05   Link #8
einhorn303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xris View Post
Both of those ideas have been suggested and are under consideration.

The problem I see with renaming "Fansubbed" to "Subtitled" is that "Subtitled" would include all those licensed DVD releases as well. Most of the streaming titles are also availbale as fansubs so "Fansubbed" seems more applicable.
You could make "Licensed" a sub-forum of the sub-forum "Subtitled," since Licensed shows are by definition generally Subtitled as well.
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Old 2009-10-19, 18:18   Link #9
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Yeah, as was said, the structure of the forum is something that is still being discussed by the mods. In general terms, I perceive there to be two possibly conflicting objectives:
  1. Accurate categorization based on the type of discussion that is allowed in the threads, and
  2. Easy-"findability" for users who are not necessarily well-versed in licensing classifications.
I think that creating a new sub-forum for "Streaming" may help us with 1, but I fear that we're getting further and further away from 2. My general premise is that you shouldn't have to keep abreast of all the latest licensing and streaming announcements if all you want to do is find the thread you want (and that telling people to "just search" means that our structure is hard to navigate).

Anyway, as was said, this is still being discussed among the staff, but I wanted to throw those considerations out there to see if anyone can come up with a solution that can meet both of those objectives. So far, there's been no agreement on any of the models that have been proposed so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LKK View Post
How does the new CR designation affect the discussion of fansub efforts for those series? Previously, Crunchyroll-licensed series were considered fully licensed and posts mentioning fansub groups were disallowed. Are fansub group references now allowed since the Crunchyroll series' threads are in the fansub forum? I'm asking in order to know whether to report fansub group posts in CR show threads for post violations.
In general terms, you can discuss anything that gets listed on the main site. As per the existing rules in the Listing Policy, though, we don't list "rips" or "re-encodes", so groups that just rip the CrunchyRoll subs and re-release them (with or without edits) are forbidden. But if a group actually fansubs a show "for real", then discussion is allowed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GHDpro View Post
I've thought about that as well, but unfortunately the "Thread Prefix" feature of vBulletin (forum software) doesn't quite work that way - they can't be customized by thread. And by default they don't contain links anyway (as you can see in this [Feedback] forum).

I suppose I could change the link to the A-Z index on Crunchyroll, which would mean one click less, but I suppose that could be more confusing to anyone not aware what kind of site Crunchyroll is.
I think that eventually we should just create our own FAQ post to explain what Crunchyroll is and link to it that way. This is the same way we did the MFI label back in the day.
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Old 2009-10-19, 18:53   Link #10
Ichihara Asako
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Originally Posted by Doria View Post
It's also confusing to me, given that other streaming series, such as those under Funimation's streaming service, are not listed under Fansubbed, despite the fact that those are no more or less licensed than CR's.
I personally consider Funi licenses valid, since they will release DVDs so if they stream, that's fine, while CRs are invalid since they will not release DVDs and therefore do not matter at all. So yeah, Funi streams are "more licensed" than CR, IMHO.
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Old 2009-10-19, 20:10   Link #11
Doria
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Ichihara Asako, I can understand that distinction, as relates to the average impression of your mainstream viewer, who shouldn't need a legal degree to find a thread in this forum. However, the impression of the viewer as to the validity of a license is not the same thing as actual validity. It's honestly been a while since I looked at every nook and cranny of this forum, but I believe in the licensed threads, typically, it required some kind of validation, which was generally an ANN license announcement. Personal opinion and legality aside, if external PR is one's standard for validity, then CR's licenses are just as valid as a Viz license. Legally speaking, of course, there is no debate, whatsoever.

GHDPro, thank you for the clear delineation of ruling categories. Certainly the desire to have a logical layout for a forum of this size has to be a ruling principle, and I can also understand the desire of moderators not to have to constantly refer confused people to the search function. And I certainly appreciate the difficulty in finding the right balance--I don't envy your jobs at all!

But then, there are also CR series that I would fully expect to see on DVD at some point--e.g., Fairy Tail. Many people assume, though I've not seen anything to back it up definitively, that one reason the CR license is for a set period of time is that it is already being at least considered by an additional R1 licensor for release purposes. Now, I have no idea if that's true or not, but it seems just as likely as any other assumptions about release to DVD, given the general R1 economy these days.

Even for series that do not have an end point, there are some that I would be quite surprised if they weren't at least being considered for an eventual DVD release. Now, these are, of course, based on my assumptions/guesses, but short of series that are part of an existing franchise, your assumptions about Funimation and Viz are also based, in part, on educated guessing (unless you have inside information that I do not, which I'm wholly willing to cede may be true).

At the very least, you'd have to imagine, as I do, that say, Shueisha is probably going to consider Bantorra just as licensed as any of their properties being handled by Funimation (chosen here not to pick on them, just for their affiliation with Shueisha/Shogakukan), and probably just as likely as at least some of those to make it to DVD. I mean, if you really don't read that CR page, now rebranded as "The Book of Bantorra Presented by Shueisha" as some kind of indication of particular interest, I really don't know what to say.

Anyhow, good luck to you. And I appreciate your well-considered responses. I'm sure this has been a difficult debate for everyone.
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Old 2009-10-19, 23:23   Link #12
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Originally Posted by xris View Post
The problem I see with renaming "Fansubbed" to "Subtitled" is that "Subtitled" would include all those licensed DVD releases as well. Most of the streaming titles are also availbale as fansubs so "Fansubbed" seems more applicable.
I agree with that problem though "Licensed" used to imply a dub, it no longer does. One could just divide the sections up by the primary watching method: Fansubs, Legal streaming, DVDs, "Unaired". "Unaired" itself is a misnomer as it is since stuff in it is sometimes aired but not subbed. The real issue is the whole thing is a (temporary?) evolution which doesn't fit in with previous models.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
  1. Accurate categorization based on the type of discussion that is allowed in the threads, and
  2. Easy-"findability" for users who are not necessarily well-versed in licensing classifications.
I think that creating a new sub-forum for "Streaming" may help us with 1, but I fear that we're getting further and further away from 2. My general premise is that you shouldn't have to keep abreast of all the latest licensing and streaming announcements if all you want to do is find the thread you want (and that telling people to "just search" means that our structure is hard to navigate).
I don't think it's possible to avoid problems with 2 as most fans don't keep track of the news. There has got to be at least one "How is this series licensed" every week in one of the CR threads. Maybe half of the people don't seem to watch things via the legal methods anyway when they are available.

Quote:
In general terms, you can discuss anything that gets listed on the main site. As per the existing rules in the Listing Policy, though, we don't list "rips" or "re-encodes", so groups that just rip the CrunchyRoll subs and re-release them (with or without edits) are forbidden. But if a group actually fansubs a show "for real", then discussion is allowed.
Since the people who watch the other copies aren't watching the CR copies to begin with, how are they supposed to know if the script was ripped from CR or not? Some groups are blatant about it but others try and claim it as their own work after some heavy editing. (Just to expand that argument but not in any seriousness: One could apply the same logic to DVDs and suggest that subbing something out on DVD would then be okay to discuss which it obviously isn't. Again, how is one supposed to know the source of the subtitles.)

Bootnote: Also, some of the CR shows don't even get "fansubs" as all of the copies are just sub rips. That just makes the "fansubbed" classification even more of a misnomer.
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Old 2009-10-20, 01:52   Link #13
Doria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xris View Post
The problem I see with renaming "Fansubbed" to "Subtitled" is that "Subtitled" would include all those licensed DVD releases as well. Most of the streaming titles are also availbale as fansubs so "Fansubbed" seems more applicable.
Just to add to bayoab's comments, this also is bit of a misnomer. It is true that many of the streaming titles are also available as fansubs, but that's true for a good many of the licensed titles, as well. In many cases, both streaming and DVD releases are R1 licensed titles that happen to also have fansubs.

If it is all right to discuss fansubs for the one licensed category, then why not the other? (Uh, just in case, please don't misunderstand, I would tend against discussion of fansubs in either case. I'm merely exploring the logical outcome of this line of thought.) Further, if that's okay, then is listing fansub torrents of both categories on the main page all right? Obviously, it was my prior understanding that fansubs for licensed titles would not be listed on the main page. Consistency seems as important as any arbitrary forum heading these things eventually go into.

At any rate, I expect much of this will resolve itself, one way or the other. Streaming certainly seems here to stay, in one form or another, so it's good to address it earlier than later!
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Old 2009-10-20, 04:03   Link #14
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I just wanted to throw in that ANN of all things, doesn't seem to consider CR anime as "licensed" either: list of licensed anime. They don't even list Phantom about which they only say "Streaming: Funimation", contrary to FMA which is "Licensed by: Funimation" according to their database. I don't know what their exact policy is, maybe somebody can direct me to their house rules, In any case, an "US license" is a vague and nondescriptive legal concept even inside the USA and irrelevant outside. And of course, something that seems to be forgotten again and again, any anime is a copyrighted work.
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Old 2009-10-20, 06:36   Link #15
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No offense, but this whole idea on how valid is a license seems quite silly to me. A license is simply an official permission to do what they do. There's no gray area since you either have it or you don't. Basically a contract was signed and that's it. It's almost axiomatic since it's something defined by the license holder and we can safely assume that if CR streams some show, then they have a license for that show.

Maybe that's the confusion--there's no "the" license, but simply one out of many potential licenses. And of course, to what region it applies can vary but that's a separate issue.
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Old 2009-10-20, 07:10   Link #16
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Formally, you're absolutely right, amd ANN is wrong. The problem is just that each and every anime is licensed according to that definition.
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Old 2009-10-20, 09:04   Link #17
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What about doing away with using licensing of any sort as a form of distinction, and instead use categories of production...

I.e.

unaired, fansubbed, prosubbed, dubbed

unaired = shows that have not aired or have aired but have no english subs in existence
fansubbed = shows that have english subs made by fans
prosubbed = shows that have official english subs by companies hired by the creators or legal rights holders like licensors
dubbed = shows that have official english dubs

Then everything is very cut and dry, with a bit less confusion.
Things that might not be licensed but with official subs (like Haruhi S2, for example) are also clearly classified in this setup. It doesn't depend on availability in any certain country or legal status, simply the existence of clear cut production work.
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Old 2009-10-20, 10:05   Link #18
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
What about doing away with using licensing of any sort as a form of distinction, and instead use categories of production...

I.e.

unaired, fansubbed, prosubbed, dubbed

unaired = shows that have not aired or have aired but have no english subs in existence
fansubbed = shows that have english subs made by fans
prosubbed = shows that have official english subs by companies hired by the creators or legal rights holders like licensors
dubbed = shows that have official english dubs
I think having a category called dubbed would incorrectly imply that it were a forum for discussing the dubbed version instead of the subbed version, as opposed to discussing anime of which a dub exists.
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Old 2009-10-20, 10:27   Link #19
xris
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
What about doing away with using licensing of any sort as a form of distinction, and instead use categories of production...

I.e.

unaired, fansubbed, prosubbed, dubbed

unaired = shows that have not aired or have aired but have no english subs in existence
fansubbed = shows that have english subs made by fans
prosubbed = shows that have official english subs by companies hired by the creators or legal rights holders like licensors
dubbed = shows that have official english dubs

Then everything is very cut and dry, with a bit less confusion.
Things that might not be licensed but with official subs (like Haruhi S2, for example) are also clearly classified in this setup. It doesn't depend on availability in any certain country or legal status, simply the existence of clear cut production work.
I think we need to step back and ask ourselves "why do we need or want sub-forums"? In this context I am talking specifically about the Anime Discussion sub-forums.

The AnimeSuki forums were created as to compliment the original AnimeSuki torrent listing site. Since the torrent site was all about fansubs then the forums reflected this, the Fansub (later to be renamed Fansubbed) forum was the main focus. We also wanted to help differentiate those series which were licensed and those what were not (along the lines of "please support the industry and purchase the DVDs when they become available").

The logic behind the Unaired forum was that new forthcoming shows were becoming lost in the Fansub forum. There wasn't much to discuss about a show that hadn't aired yet and since the other threads in the Fansub forum were so much more active there was little encouragement to create new threads for the new series until they actually aired.

I believe the Unaired forum was / is a real success and it has shown that there is a need for specific separate sub-forums within Anime Discussion. While it is true there isn't anywhere near the sort of traffic / activity within Unaired compared to the Fansubbed forum, it's a great way to learn about the new series of the forthcoming seasons (which start every January, April, July and October). All you need do is click on the Unaired forum and you can see the potential series because those are most of the active threads. At the start of a new season (such as now) you can see at a glance which of these series have been fansubbed / streamed / licensed since they are moved out of Unaired into a new forum.

As a viewer of anime myself, I find this sub-forum very helpful. Since the threads no longer get lost in the general activity of the Fansubbed forum, it is easy to find and obtain information about the forthcoming season. Posters such as NeoSam supply new info about the show and users discuss what they might expect. As it stands, I think that the Unaired forum is a good example as to why such a division is made between threads.

The question I would ask is what other sub-forums are actually required nowadays. Why not just put all the other threads (be they fansubbed, streamed or licensed) in a single forum? My main objection for this would be that certain threads would again become "lost" in the general activity. The question is if the division of these threads into three sub-forums (Fansubbed, Streamed and Licensed) actually needed.

It has been suggested that we should have separate forums for Current Series and Older Series. This might be a good example where we don't really need to worry about a series being licensed, streamed, fansubbed or untranslated. It has the advantage that the active threads (i.e. those currently airing) will be small number (about 50 or so) and therefore they will be easy to find on the first page of the sub-forum. Since they are separated from the older series, they won't drown out any discussion for these older series making them "easier" to find in their own sub-forum. It might encourage more discussion for such older series since their threads will be more visible and easier to find.

My main objection with this is the logistics of the Mods having to move threads. While it may sound a trivial task, it is a task all the same. When do threads get moved from Current to Older? When the series finishes airing, a week after, a month after? When the fansub run have been completed? When the "activity" of the thread has died down?

Another issue with a Current Series sub-forum is that it might discourage discussion on licensed and streamed series (in as much they will get swamped by a lot of the current fansubbed series). That might be a reason to keep these sub-forums in the current Fansubbed / Licensed format.

tl;dr ?

Why do we have the current layout of Unaired / Fansubbed / Licensed anyway?

Are there any alternatives that encourage discussion of any series be it new, old, licensed, streamed, fansubbed or untranslated?
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Old 2009-10-20, 11:04   Link #20
einhorn303
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Personally, I'd just like to see CR series threads moved back to the License Subforum. And I've never accepted the concept of licensing tiers, and the idea that CR simulcasts aren't "real" licenses, compared to say Funimation or whatever.

Also, what sort of massacre is this:

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