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Old 2009-10-24, 14:31   Link #201
Cub-Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
My apologies, but that is disgusting. It's one thing to be OK with the killing of animals for food, but it's another to be indifferent to suffering or acts of cruelty that are carried out against them.
I was desensitized to things like that while I was still in primary school, most things that horrify people dont phase me unless it is inflicted upon a human who I can empathize with.

I am an apathetic person and tend to view things objectively, I am not emotional and fact is treating the animals in safer, nicer conditions would be a waste of money. Money that can go to important things to help other humans.
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:34   Link #202
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I am an apathetic person and tend to view things objectively, I am not emotional and fact is treating the animals in safer, nicer conditions would be a waste of money. Money that can go to important things to help other humans.
Depends. In a french reporting about how the animals are treated in some exploitations, some french scientists believe that for example:

- The meat is full of toxins when the animals suffered from a lot of stress
- The meat is not as good.

I don't know what is said in the other countries though, but if it's true, then people should be careful about their health. And the government should do something.
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:35   Link #203
Alchemist007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I was desensitized to things like that while I was still in primary school, most things that horrify people dont phase me unless it is inflicted upon a human who I can empathize with.

I am an apathetic person and tend to view things objectively, I am not emotional and fact is treating the animals in safer, nicer conditions would be a waste of money. Money that can go to important things to help other humans.
Bah ur just 14, your mind will shift (whether that be to worse or not I dunno :P)
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:37   Link #204
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Sincerely, I hope we will not reach that point. It scares me. That reminds the ones who believe we will soon be able to live by eating capsules only.
Hm... I guess it's a strange thought, and I won't put my hopes on it, but if we were able to produce meat that way, I would be all for it.
For obvious reasons. xD
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Old 2009-10-24, 14:42   Link #205
cheyannew
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I actually limit the amount of soy products in our house due to some research mentioning its high estrogen count may be contributing to the early onset of puberty. That may or may not be true, but frankly, sinking my teeth into the spongy "goodness" of tofu (don't get me wrong, I like it in certain dishes) isn't as satisfying as sinking my teeth into a good, rare slab of flesh.

Then again, I also believe in using all of the animal, so I'm rather in between the "meat good" and "meat bad" crew, I guess. I'd RATHER every (or as much as possible) of the animal get used, but that doesn't happen. And I do not live in an area where we can regularly hunt our own meat, or I'd be all over that.

So, I have to rely on mail order (for stuff like venison - the place I order from sells the hides, etc too which is why I chose them) or careful choosing in a grocery store/butcher shop.
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:00   Link #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheyannew View Post
I actually limit the amount of soy products in our house due to some research mentioning its high estrogen count may be contributing to the early onset of puberty. That may or may not be true, but frankly, sinking my teeth into the spongy "goodness" of tofu (don't get me wrong, I like it in certain dishes) isn't as satisfying as sinking my teeth into a good, rare slab of flesh.

Then again, I also believe in using all of the animal, so I'm rather in between the "meat good" and "meat bad" crew, I guess. I'd RATHER every (or as much as possible) of the animal get used, but that doesn't happen. And I do not live in an area where we can regularly hunt our own meat, or I'd be all over that.

So, I have to rely on mail order (for stuff like venison - the place I order from sells the hides, etc too which is why I chose them) or careful choosing in a grocery store/butcher shop.
I hear ya. I've never really been appealed to hunting, but I really do prefer getting meat from a butcher's rather than a supermarket. You don't have many of those in my area of London, but there's quite a few where I live in Sicily and I really do prefer going to them because their meat tends to be more trustworthy. And I've never really tried Tofu, nor do I really intend to iibh. I prefer fresh food by far.
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:07   Link #207
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Well, at least it can be an entertaining bad habit. xD
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Ah, let's not pick apart my psyche. ;P
I'm usually not someone who cares much what others think of me, except when it comes to my loved ones. Maybe I'm a narcissit and simply like hearing my own voice... errr... reading my own postings.
Who knows? xD
Err, okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Ah, you could fill several books with an answer to this I think.
However, I'm not talking about science, but philosophy. If you can't back up a premise, you have a problem. I could make any assumption I want and no one could prove me wrong if logic doesn't matter.
Well, logic does matter indeed, it makes things more plausible. In a logical chain there is a beginning somewhere, a fundamental premise. This premise must be defined, it cannot be proven. For example, how would you back up the right to exist?


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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Moral theories itself can and should have consistency.
Well, my question is, how do you know they are consistent? They can very well be inconsistent if the premises are wrong (my assumption here is, that more then one fundamental premise was used to prove the theory). A == can become a != somewhere in your logic once a premise is falsified. Interestingly that does not automatically disprove the theory, it just shows that the chosen way to prove it is wrong. Now since I can theoretically have a wrong premise and a wrong prove but a partly correct result, a complex network of logical chains can suddenly become inconsistent. Well actually they always were, one just did not know it.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
There is nothing essential in meat that you can't get from another source, like tofu. There are many healthy vegetarians living all over the world who can attest to that, and there are studies about this kind of thing.
A few say meat is good, a few say meat is evil, but as far as I know, most serious studies don't deny that leading a healthy life as a vegetarian is usually not impossible at all.
You cannot simply generalize many == everyone. Of'course there are... healthy vegetarians... who like to eat tofu... and do not commit suicide when they think about having to eat tofu for the rest of their lifes.
But what is healthy for person A can be unhealthy for person B. Just because something is not impossible at all, does not mean it is applicable for everyone.

Btw. statistics and studies are made by humans who often get money from... uh not so independend sources. Typically with the aim to lobby for something. For instance: People drink less wine than is produced and it becomes an economical strain. => Lets make a study that shows that wine can reduce the risk of heart diseases and publicize it in the news papers.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
If there is no morally relevant difference between the animal and the human, the question is how much we value our own health compared to our moral beliefs.
But there is a difference in quality. Most animals do not have the mental capabilities to actually understand the concept of life or pain or their situation in general - much less can they imagine how they could live differently or what morale is. I guess most of them are less troubled with their lifes than some humans who believe they know how it must be to be an animal and be treated like this.
But don't get me wrong, I am not saying cruelty against animals is moraly acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
However, vegetarians aren't dying left and right, and even if there is something in that can only be found in meat some people absolutely need (I'm curious what that would be)...
Good flavor? ^^'

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
...the worst that will happen to them if they attempt to become vegetarians is that they will start feeling bad and go back to eating meat long before anything terrible happens.
Well said. Still, I for instance am not that easily converted.

Last edited by Jinto; 2009-10-24 at 15:19.
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:20   Link #208
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I was desensitized to things like that while I was still in primary school, most things that horrify people dont phase me unless it is inflicted upon a human who I can empathize with.

I am an apathetic person and tend to view things objectively, I am not emotional and fact is treating the animals in safer, nicer conditions would be a waste of money. Money that can go to important things to help other humans.
Like Narona said, it's actually bad for the meat if the animals are put under stress. And since eating a shitton of meat is unhealthy and wasteful anyway, it SHOULD be more expensive to produce and more expensive to buy.

Also, regarding your apathy, I'm going to invoke Godwin's Law and remind you that lots of Germans in WW2 knew about the Slavs and Jews being slaughtered, but they were too apathetic to do or even say anything, since after all, it would be a waste of money and resources to let them live, right?
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:22   Link #209
legend14
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yeah i do ! : ) but to be honest meat is not my fav. meal ! but I desire to eat it from time to

time ^^ I mean nothin like a delicious beef steak with peper sauce when you're really hungry *GrrEmptyStomachSound* lol

xD ! but i dun like red meat ><" i love to eat it w.d although medium cooked is tastier

accordin to what most ppl say ! but i can't see the blood and Continue eatin xx !


thx ^_^
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:26   Link #210
Alchemist007
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I don't recommend really trying to convert someone, they'll just hate you for it in the end. List the benefits and such but let them make up their own damn mind. With Cub I'm just really bewildered at the almost nazi-ish stance I'm perceiving.
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:34   Link #211
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
Well, logic does matter indeed, it makes things more plausible. In a logical chain there is a beginning somewhere, a fundamental premise. This premise must be defined, it cannot be proven. For example, how would you back up the right to exist?
Ah, in cases where proving the premise is impossible, you can always take whatever it is other people are basing their concept of morality on and go from there.
But I see your point.

Quote:
Well, my question is, how do you know they are consistent? They can very well be inconsistent if the premises are wrong (my assumption here is, that more then one fundamental premise was used to prove the theory). A == can become a != somewhere in your logic once a premise is falsified. Interestingly that does not automatically disprove the theory, it just shows that the chosen way to prove it is wrong. Now since I can theoretically have a wrong premise and a wrong prove but a partly correct result, a complex network of logical chains can suddenly become inconsistent. Well actually they always were, one just did not know it.
If we detect an inconsitency in our logic, we will have to try and eradicate it. Otherwise, it gives room for al kinds of ridiculous claims.

Quote:
You cannot simply generalize many == everyone. Of'course there are... healthy vegetarians... who like to eat tofu... and do not commit suicide when they think about having to eat tofu for the rest of their lifes.
But what is healthy for person A can be unhealthy for person B. Just because something is not impossible at all, does not mean it is applicable for everyone.
As I said, I acknowledge that some people might actually need meat to survive.
However, they should be in the minority, and if it were only a few who ate meat, the animals could at least lead much more comfortable lives before they are killed.
Also, we could put a bit more money into researching alternatives.

Quote:
Btw. statistics and studies are made by humans who often get money from... uh not so independend sources. Typically with the aim to lobby for something. For instance: People drink less wine than is produced and it becomes an economical strain. => Lets make a study that shows that wine can reduce the risk of heart diseases and publicize it in the news papers.
Then we need a reliable independent study. People could push for that, if they cared enough.

Quote:
But there is a difference in quality. Most animals do not have the mental capabilities to actually understand the concept of life or pain or their situation in general - much less can they imagine how they could live differently or what morale is.
This is also the case for infants and people with certain brain conditions.

Quote:
I guess most of them are less troubled with their lifes than some humans who believe they know how it must be to be an animal and be treated like this.
You don't need to be able to think about something to be troubled by it. Many, if not most, of those animals display self-destructive behaviour and are clearly very unhappy. They harm themselves, each other, and experience intense pain and fear, sometimes precisely because they don't understand what is happening.
Saying they automatically suffer less than a human based on this is saying a child suffers less than a healthy adult, since adults tend to be more aware of the general situation.

Quote:
But don't get me wrong, I am not saying cruelty against animals is moraly acceptable.
Never took it that way.

Quote:
Good flavor? ^^'
*throws a (probably fresh) sock* xD

Quote:
Well said. Still, I am not that easily converted.
Ah, too bad, but I can always try. xD
And even if it doesn't work, we already established that arguing for the sake of arguing is fun!
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Old 2009-10-24, 15:44   Link #212
Cub-Sama
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Also, regarding your apathy, I'm going to invoke Godwin's Law and remind you that lots of Germans in WW2 knew about the Slavs and Jews being slaughtered, but they were too apathetic to do or even say anything, since after all, it would be a waste of money and resources to let them live, right?
I hold animals and humans in different regards, what was done during WW2 is horrific and should never be repeated again, what was done to animals...I dont give a flying s*** about to be honest. But if treating them better makes them tastier then do it
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Old 2009-10-24, 16:30   Link #213
Jinto
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
If we detect an inconsitency in our logic, we will have to try and eradicate it. Otherwise, it gives room for al kinds of ridiculous claims.
But first you have to accept that there is an inconsistency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
As I said, I acknowledge that some people might actually need meat to survive.
However, they should be in the minority, and if it were only a few who ate meat, the animals could at least lead much more comfortable lives before they are killed.
Also, we could put a bit more money into researching alternatives.
Hm, research... actually I read something about analog meat made from sewage sludge.

http://nexuslex.wordpress.com/2008/0...n-jinko-nikku/

If that was the only "meat" available I'ld rather be an ultra vegetarian.


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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
This is also the case for infants and people with certain brain conditions.
Rest assured I won't eat them.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
You don't need to be able to think about something to be troubled by it. Many, if not most, of those animals display self-destructive behaviour and are clearly very unhappy.
The reason why I don't like poultry. I have yet to find such an unhappy cow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Saying they automatically suffer less than a human based on this is saying a child suffers less than a healthy adult, since adults tend to be more aware of the general situation.
If we are talking about babies and adults it is indeed so. But the mental capabilities of a human child (3 years+) and an adult are in comparison to that of most animals almost on the same level. The psychological suffering is much greater then the actual pain.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
*throws a (probably fresh) sock* xD
*that probably (didn't) hit me* :P

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Ah, too bad, but I can always try. xD
And even if it doesn't work, we already established that arguing for the sake of arguing is fun!
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:02   Link #214
teachopvutru
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I hold animals and humans in different regards, what was done during WW2 is horrific and should never be repeated again, what was done to animals...I dont give a flying s*** about to be honest. But if treating them better makes them tastier then do it
Dude, you are justifying your differences with the human race and animal race label. How about treating them the same where it applies? They have sensory perception, too, and they undoubtedly hate pain and death, too. If you can't do anything about the latter, how about reducing the former? Unless you love someone let you live through starvation, let your skin cracks by the freezing temperature in winter and infected by parasites and all gory and stuffs you love to look at, and then kill you by slicing through your flesh, bit by bit, as you experience your lovely painful death, then by all mean you can act that way (yea, right). (Note: examples of animal cruelty here may be exaggerated or understated, I don't know... I was "inspired" by the reading about slavery for English class )

I'm not attacking the part of your apathy that probably comes from how this issue is not relevant to your daily life. But I disagree with you for your differentiating the Jew example and for your attitude when the whole thing about animal cruelty is in front of your face on youtube video.


As for the vegetarianism vs. meat-eating, I find this whole thing too confusing. First, there's the distinction between those who gotta eat whatever necessary for survival and those who can make a choice of what they eat. After that, it's about difference between killing animal vs. plant. Then, it's like asking what life is.

Personally, I need to know the difference between the life of plant and animal. When I eat, I can visualize an animal being killed and get disgusted by it, and I can visualize a plant being harvested and not get disgusted by it. That's the only difference for me now, and my wish to become a vegetarian is more for a peace of mind than anything else (and I personally think that morality exists for peace of mind, too).
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:12   Link #215
HayashiTakara
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And if fruits and vegetables had puppy eyes and speaks in a cute little voice "please don't eat me"

what then? are you gonna let yourself starve to death because u can't handle the idea of eating another living thing to survive?
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:17   Link #216
Alchemist007
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Fact is they don't, so its retarded to ask.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:21   Link #217
HayashiTakara
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Fact is they don't, so its retarded to ask.
Fact is they're still living beings, just because they don't have behavioral patterns we associate with animals don't lessen their stance as a living beings.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:39   Link #218
Alchemist007
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fruits aren't living beings. Perhaps the seeds have potential.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:45   Link #219
teachopvutru
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
And if fruits and vegetables had puppy eyes and speaks in a cute little voice "please don't eat me"

what then? are you gonna let yourself starve to death because u can't handle the idea of eating another living thing to survive?
Of course I would eat to survive. Beside, I'm only talking about eating vegetable where practical. So even if I will be a vegetarian (which I doubt I will), if I find a situation where eating only vegetable is not practical, then I would go for meat, too.

Also, your example doesn't match reality.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:46   Link #220
synaesthetic
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Sincerely, I hope we will not reach that point. It scares me. That reminds the ones who believe we will soon be able to live by eating capsules only.
I hope we do reach that point for completely unrelated medical reasons. If we can successfully reproduce single parts of organisms in a laboratory environment, just think of what that will mean for people who need organ transplants.

Or replacement limbs. Prostheses may advance significantly from where they are now, but they won't ever be a replacement from an actual limb cloned from your own genetic information.

But once it's been done for medical reasons, you can bet that some enterprising soul will see a market in creating cultured meat products. Humanity is ceaselessly inventive when it comes to ways to make money. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Depends. In a french reporting about how the animals are treated in some exploitations, some french scientists believe that for example:

- The meat is full of toxins when the animals suffered from a lot of stress
- The meat is not as good.

I don't know what is said in the other countries though, but if it's true, then people should be careful about their health. And the government should do something.
This is 100% true. When an animal dies under stress, the meat's quality and flavor is compromised.

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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Fact is they're still living beings, just because they don't have behavioral patterns we associate with animals don't lessen their stance as a living beings.
The fruit of a plant is not actually alive, and it is a part of the plant's reproductive system. It evolved to be eaten, in order to propagate. A fruit is eaten by an animal--the flesh of the fruit is digested, but the seeds are not. When the animal defecates, the seeds are planted with ready-made fertilizer. ^^;
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