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Old 2009-10-24, 17:56   Link #221
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I hope we do reach that point for completely unrelated medical reasons. If we can successfully reproduce single parts of organisms in a laboratory environment, just think of what that will mean for people who need organ transplants.

Or replacement limbs. Prostheses may advance significantly from where they are now, but they won't ever be a replacement from an actual limb cloned from your own genetic information.

But once it's been done for medical reasons, you can bet that some enterprising soul will see a market in creating cultured meat products. Humanity is ceaselessly inventive when it comes to ways to make money. ^^;



This is 100% true. When an animal dies under stress, the meat's quality and flavor is compromised.



The fruit of a plant is not actually alive, and it is a part of the plant's reproductive system. It evolved to be eaten, in order to propagate. A fruit is eaten by an animal--the flesh of the fruit is digested, but the seeds are not. When the animal defecates, the seeds are planted with ready-made fertilizer. ^^;
Exactly its eating the "womb" of the plant. Basically like gutting open a pig and eating its womb.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:00   Link #222
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A plant drops the fruit on its own. Pigs don't drop their uterus.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:00   Link #223
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Except a pig's womb didn't evolve to propagate baby pigs by being eaten by another creature. Fruit did. ^^;
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:11   Link #224
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Yes, I believe that it's almost impossible to kill animals in large numbers without them feeling stress or pain.
I'm not trying to argue with you (yet), I'm just trying to determine what your true thoughts are. You seem a little unsure, yourself - which is fine. This sort of banter helps us to cement our thoughts and feelings.

So you think that it's impossible (almost) to kill animals in large numbers without feeling stress or pain. I disagree, but rather than argue over the logistics of how such a thing could be accomplished, I want to know if you feel differently about killing animals in small numbers?

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And there is even more to it than that. I don't just want to stay alive because death would be painful, but I would also lose my presence and future, my chance to experience happiness. Physically, death can't hurt me while I am alive, only the process of dying; yet it would take something away from me I feel I am entitled to. This is why I think killing people in their sleep is still wrong, and why I think killing animals painlessly would still be wrong.
I don't disagree with this notion, but to be fair, if you were dead you'd either cease to exist, you'd be in the afterlife (which is often considered to be better than the present life), you'd be reborn, or I suppose you'd be a vengeful ghost, all depending on your beliefs. With the exception of that last option (which isn't very common in westernized societies) the fact that you died would likely not matter to you.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
However, since this is a very abstract kind of harm, I can see how someone could say that as long as the animals don't experience fear or pain before or while dying, it's not so bad, and I think I could live with that. But if I were to agree, I also would have to accept that killing humans painlessly is not so bad, either.
The reason why killing humans is bad, even if it is done painlessly, doesn't have to do with physical harm or even removal of something that belongs to them (their life). It has to do with the fact that we humans are social creatures, and the death of one of us impacts many others. While a person who loses their life arguably loses the greatest and most precious thing, their death also removes a person from the lives of others. (And from a productive standpoint, society is deprived of their talents and labor - just to throw that in for the people who think that acting like result-oriented, emotionless robots is the cool thing to do.)

Like you, I'm partly still sorting through this. In my case the dilemma is a bit different, though. I work with animals in scientific research, and I find it one of the hardest parts of the job. We need them, of course - we need them very badly, and research really could not move at the rate that it does (if at all) if they were off-limits. While many of my colleagues see them as just another research reagent, I can't help but view them as the living organisms that they are. I've been doing this for over a year now and I find that I'm still not desensitized to it (which is a relief). Perhaps many years down the road I'd be fully desensitized - I don't know. The best I can do to avoid feeling more guilty than I do is to ensure that the animals are as comfortable as possible, all procedures are carried out as quickly and painlessly as possible, and that the inevitable death is also quick and painless (and to rag on my colleagues when they're too rough or don't observe the proper anesthesia procedures).

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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I was desensitized to things like that while I was still in primary school, most things that horrify people dont phase me unless it is inflicted upon a human who I can empathize with.

I am an apathetic person and tend to view things objectively, I am not emotional and fact is treating the animals in safer, nicer conditions would be a waste of money. Money that can go to important things to help other humans.
In a few years, if you ever re-read this post you'll probably want to punch yourself for being silly. We're not talking about shock value here - probably most of us here are desensitized to the types of things that would shock others. We're talking about feelings of right and wrong, and simply respecting life.

If you're morally impaired and money-focused, most of us here (and anyone else who finds out) will likely shun you, but good news - you'd be very successful as the CEO of a large company. Those are the behavioral traits that many top CEOs seem to have, anyway - possible career path, there.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:21   Link #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
The reason why killing humans is bad, even if it is done painlessly, doesn't have to do with physical harm or even removal of something that belongs to them (their life). It has to do with the fact that we humans are social creatures, and the death of one of us impacts many others. While a person who loses their life arguably loses the greatest and most precious thing, their death also removes a person from the lives of others. (And from a productive standpoint, society is deprived of their talents and labor - just to throw that in for the people who think that acting like result-oriented, emotionless robots is the cool thing to do.)
This is what I've been trying to express for a while but you've put it into words far better than I was able to. Bravo.

Quote:
In a few years, if you ever re-read this post you'll probably want to punch yourself for being silly. We're not talking about shock value here - probably most of us here are desensitized to the types of things that would shock others. We're talking about feelings of right and wrong, and simply respecting life.

If you're morally impaired and money-focused, most of us here (and anyone else who finds out) will likely shun you, but good news - you'd be very successful as the CEO of a large company. Those are the behavioral traits that many top CEOs seem to have, anyway - possible career path, there.
Throughout history a large percentage of the great and ambitious generals and conquerors were ruthless, cold-blooded sociopaths. It isn't much of a surprise that the new movers and shakers in the new battlefield (economics) share those traits.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:25   Link #226
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Since the dawn of time till the end of time, someone or something must die for something else to survive. It's something that cannot be ignored or denied. Brooding over the nonsensical is a pointless waste of time better off worrying about more important things, like your own personal survival and happiness.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:33   Link #227
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Since the dawn of time till the end of time, someone or something must die for something else to survive. It's something that cannot be ignored or denied. Brooding over the nonsensical is a pointless waste of time better off worrying about more important things, like your own personal survival and happiness.
The point Nogitsune is trying to make, the one that some folks here are continually missing is that we should not do something just because we can.

Her point is that humans living in an industrialized society with a certain income level do not need to eat meat to survive, because we have available alternatives that fill every nutritional need. Her perspective is that if we choose to eat meat when we don't have to, we're needlessly causing suffering for reasons of convenience or pleasure rather than survival.

I don't agree, because I like to eat meat and I don't consider it immoral to kill animals for food or other useful products (such as leather).

I also don't agree with a desire to legislate against meat for economic reasons. The livestock industry is enormous, a multi-billion dollar industry that supports the lives of millions upon millions of people. If the consumption of meat were to be banned, millions of people would lose their livelihoods. Some nations would experience a full-on economic crash.

That is considerable harm and suffering beyond anything that the livestock industry could ever produce even in their most cruelest moments. As I mentioned in the environmental thread, you have to think beyond just surface appearances. Banning certain things--whether it be meat consumption or oil consumption--could have far-ranging economic consequences that have a high chance of doing far more damage and causing far more suffering than simply letting things be.

After all, would you rather have worldwide nuclear war, or a bit more CO2 in the air? Would you rather have a shattered economy with millions of people jobless and poverty-stricken, or would you rather allow livestock to be raised for meat?
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:46   Link #228
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O.o
I suspect from just glancing at the last page and seeing the ever complex answers from something that typically could be a yes/no answer, that a few vegeterians that are kicking up a fuss.
*hides her kebabs*

But to answer a simple question, yes I do and cannot imagine giving it up. It's prob woven deeply into my ethnic dishes and lifestyle (Food served at funerals, b'day parties or christenings, etc), so it's as natural to me as lions eating zebras or snakes eating mice or anteaters eating ants.
Now only to breed a species of something that could help wipe out the mosquito population down a few billion

The issue that does come up in question is 'consumption', but that's a problem with maintaining balance and checking out how many resturants must serve burgers and junk food. (close a few Maccy D joints perhaps?)
Gonna drop this graph, which is a bit intresting, dunno how much authenticy it has on accuracy but still interesting nonetheless.
Click to zoom in on picture and read stuffs if you wish

Top 10 most and least carnivorous countries...
http://awesome.good.is/transparency/...eat/flash.html
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:47   Link #229
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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I was desensitized to things like that while I was still in primary school, most things that horrify people dont phase me unless it is inflicted upon a human who I can empathize with.
I've met people who considered themselves "desensitized" before. A lot of the stuff I deal with on a fairly regular basis would make the same people have a panic attack. We've always had chickens / goats / cats (lots of cats) / various other types of animals around, and we live in the woods, and have neighbors with large, poorly trained dogs, so I've had plenty of chances to see some pretty messed up stuff. Until someone proves to me that they can inspect the bite marks on an animal who is still alive after having most of her chest, neck, and ribcage torn out, without losing it, I don't really consider them "desensitized."

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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
I am an apathetic person and tend to view things objectively, I am not emotional and fact is treating the animals in safer, nicer conditions would be a waste of money. Money that can go to important things to help other humans.
Well... even though I don't really object to the way animals are raised for slaughter, that doesn't mean that I particularly like the way things are now, or don't think the conditions should be improved. To say that treating animals better would be a waste of money crosses the line for me, even if they are being raised for food.

Like I say, the only reason I don't actively object to the way things are done now is that the horrible conditions aren't the desired results. They're just byproducts of a commercial enterprise focused on turning a profit. That doesn't mean that I'm "okay with it," don't care, or wouldn't try to do things a lot differently were I given the opportunity, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
The point Nogitsune is trying to make, the one that some folks here are continually missing is that we should not do something just because we can.

Her point is that humans living in an industrialized society with a certain income level do not need to eat meat to survive, because we have available alternatives that fill every nutritional need. Her perspective is that if we choose to eat meat when we don't have to, we're needlessly causing suffering for reasons of convenience or pleasure rather than survival.
Well, that's not really a bad point that she's making. I don't exactly agree with it either, though.

I mean, if people shouldn't do things they don't need to in order to survive, then I guess I should toss this computer out the window, because I don't really need it.

Of course, if you restrict that to only a "ban" on things that cause "needless" suffering, then... well, I guess I should still toss this thing out a window, because I'm pretty sure someone, somewhere, had to get stepped on during the manufacturing process. A lot of the things people do for their own enjoyment cause "needless" suffering. So do a lot of things that other animals do. They're not actually trying to cause the suffering as the end product though, it's just a byproduct. To me, that's just fine. If someone causes an animal pain just because they get off on it, then I'm going to have a serious problem.

I guess my main standpoint can really be summed up by saying that I think all animals have the right to be selfish and attempt to enjoy their life to the utmost, as long as their sole intent is not merely torture. If I do something for my own enjoyment, and the only way to do it causes harm to another creature in the process, then said creature and its entire species has every right to attempt to throttle me.

Last edited by Neat Hedgehog; 2009-10-24 at 19:00.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:48   Link #230
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Since the dawn of time till the end of time, someone or something must die for something else to survive. It's something that cannot be ignored or denied. Brooding over the nonsensical is a pointless waste of time better off worrying about more important things, like your own personal survival and happiness.
Plants the first living things, use water, sunlight, and CO2; none of which are alive.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:52   Link #231
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Plants the first living things, use water, sunlight, and CO2; none of which are alive.
That's not enough for a plant to live, I hope you realize this. The compost that provides minerals and such on the soil in which plants require to grow is made up of dead animals and other vegitations, and other such things like waste products.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:58   Link #232
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The first plants didn't have anything but other dead plants around, so its not nearly as equivalent.
That's just rooted stuff, plankton doesn't even need that much.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:04   Link #233
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Originally Posted by teachopvutru View Post
I'm not attacking the part of your apathy that probably comes from how this issue is not relevant to your daily life. But I disagree with you for your differentiating the Jew example and for your attitude when the whole thing about animal cruelty is in front of your face on youtube video.
Thing is I will obviously feel worse for humans who are similar to me, people I know feel pain and go through trauma, a tiger doesnt care if a human dies but I bet you if its child dies it is going on a rampage. Humans care more about their own race than animals and animals care more about their own than they do us, which is why I feel nothing when I see animals being abused but instantly feel sorry for humans being abused.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:05   Link #234
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
The first plants didn't have anything but other dead plants around, so its not nearly as equivalent.
That's just rooted stuff, plankton doesn't even need that much.
Now micro-organisms? This is just getting ridiculous...
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:05   Link #235
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I agree. Slow tangent from topic
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:08   Link #236
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I agree. Slow tangent from topic
Alchy I like you as a friend, but I don't think we can ever share a meal together
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:08   Link #237
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Cheese pizza?
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:09   Link #238
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But first you have to accept that there is an inconsistency.
*nods*

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Hm, research... actually I read something about analog meat made from sewage sludge.

http://nexuslex.wordpress.com/2008/0...n-jinko-nikku/

If that was the only "meat" available I'ld rather be an ultra vegetarian.
Ugh. xD

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Rest assured I won't eat them.
And not kill them, either? ;P

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The reason why I don't like poultry. I have yet to find such an unhappy cow.
They exist. It's especially bad for veals, who aren't fed what they would usually need and prevented from moving around so that the iron (which is also found in their own fur, so of course, you have to keep them from grooming) doesn't darken the meat.

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If we are talking about babies and adults it is indeed so. But the mental capabilities of a human child (3 years+) and an adult are in comparison to that of most animals almost on the same level. The psychological suffering is much greater then the actual pain.
So a two year old child automatically suffers less than an adult - so much less than killing it would be all right in comparision?
Also, it depends on the extent of pain which suffering is greater. For example, there are methods of torture that wouldn't allow you to contemplate your situation much, yet you might still wish you were dead.
Animals also have a psyche that can be damaged. For example, chickens and pigs are very social creatures. Preventing them from social interaction will lead to abnormal, often self-destructive and aggressive behaviour that isn't easily "fixed". It's a sign that even though they are not contemplating the meaning of life, their suffering might very well be able to compete with that of a healthy human adult in the same situation. Again, not understanding something doesn't necessarily make it better.

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*that probably (didn't) hit me* :P
I have more where that came from! ;P

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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I'm not trying to argue with you (yet), I'm just trying to determine what your true thoughts are. You seem a little unsure, yourself - which is fine. This sort of banter helps us to cement our thoughts and feelings.
*nods*

Quote:
So you think that it's impossible (almost) to kill animals in large numbers without feeling stress or pain. I disagree, but rather than argue over the logistics of how such a thing could be accomplished, I want to know if you feel differently about killing animals in small numbers?
I think the main problem here is that the industry wants to make profit - as much as possible.
If you know you are only supposed to kill ten cows before the day is over, you can take your time and make sure the animal doesn't suffer more than necessary. However, if you have to kill a hundred cows or more, you have to hurry, or you might lose your job.

Quote:
I don't disagree with this notion, but to be fair, if you were dead you'd either cease to exist, you'd be in the afterlife (which is often considered to be better than the present life), you'd be reborn, or I suppose you'd be a vengeful ghost, all depending on your beliefs. With the exception of that last option (which isn't very common in westernized societies) the fact that you died would likely not matter to you.
True.

Quote:
The reason why killing humans is bad, even if it is done painlessly, doesn't have to do with physical harm or even removal of something that belongs to them (their life). It has to do with the fact that we humans are social creatures, and the death of one of us impacts many others. While a person who loses their life arguably loses the greatest and most precious thing, their death also removes a person from the lives of others. (And from a productive standpoint, society is deprived of their talents and labor - just to throw that in for the people who think that acting like result-oriented, emotionless robots is the cool thing to do.)
So if I am alone on an island with an orphan, killing them would be morally acceptable? Or why don't we use the organs of orphans for that of children who still have a family? The families would be saved, and no one would miss the orphans if we got them from the right places!
I still think it would be wrong.

Quote:
Like you, I'm partly still sorting through this. In my case the dilemma is a bit different, though. I work with animals in scientific research, and I find it one of the hardest parts of the job. We need them, of course - we need them very badly, and research really could not move at the rate that it does (if at all) if they were off-limits. While many of my colleagues see them as just another research reagent, I can't help but view them as the living organisms that they are. I've been doing this for over a year now and I find that I'm still not desensitized to it (which is a relief). Perhaps many years down the road I'd be fully desensitized - I don't know. The best I can do to avoid feeling more guilty than I do is to ensure that the animals are as comfortable as possible, all procedures are carried out as quickly and painlessly as possible, and that the inevitable death is also quick and painless (and to rag on my colleagues when they're too rough or don't observe the proper anesthesia procedures).
*shudders*
This is another issue that bothers me. I'm glad there are at least some people in this field who feel for the animals, but this is another thing I oppose. However, since I don't think humanity is selfless enough to drop this kind of research any time soon, I can only point to the book "Animals like Us" and nod my head in agreement to about every single point the author makes about this (and the meat eating issue, of course).
At the moment, I'd be conetent already if animals at least wouldn't be used for things anymore for which there are alternatives.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:13   Link #239
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Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Cheese pizza?
I'm down with that then, but it has to be NY pizza its what I grew up on
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:14   Link #240
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Good enough, we've got that here too "NY style."
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