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Old 2009-10-24, 19:14   Link #241
teachopvutru
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I don't disagree with this notion, but to be fair, if you were dead you'd either cease to exist, you'd be in the afterlife (which is often considered to be better than the present life), you'd be reborn, or I suppose you'd be a vengeful ghost, all depending on your beliefs. With the exception of that last option (which isn't very common in westernized societies) the fact that you died would likely not matter to you.
To get off topic a bit, in Buddhism, it's most of them, but the central part is reborn. That said, alongside thought, verbal, and action conducts throughout life, the state of mind at death is very important in determining what your next destination will be.

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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Since the dawn of time till the end of time, someone or something must die for something else to survive. It's something that cannot be ignored or denied. Brooding over the nonsensical is a pointless waste of time better off worrying about more important things, like your own personal survival and happiness.
I don't see anyone suggested that we eat nonliving things and live...

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Originally Posted by Cub-Sama View Post
Thing is I will obviously feel worse for humans who are similar to me, people I know feel pain and go through trauma, a tiger doesnt care if a human dies but I bet you if its child dies it is going on a rampage. Humans care more about their own race than animals and animals care more about their own than they do us, which is why I feel nothing when I see animals being abused but instantly feel sorry for humans being abused.
Well, caring about animals less than humans is different from not caring at all about animals. It's true that them not being humans, especially when they are stranger (not pet/etc), can make them more distant, but there are certain similarities, too, and they apply when cruelty is being exerted upon or responses to cruelty are involved.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:16   Link #242
Alchemist007
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I don't see anyone suggested that we eat nonliving things and live...
I did, fruits.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:17   Link #243
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Originally Posted by teachopvutru View Post
Well, caring about animals less than humans is different from not caring at all about animals. It's true that them not being humans, especially when they are stranger (not pet/etc), can make them more distant, but there are certain similarities, too, and they apply when cruelty is being exerted upon or responses to cruelty are involved.
*nods*
I also care much less for a stranger than my best friend. Does that mean I should be allowed to torture and kill the stranger?
I don't think so.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:19   Link #244
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Good enough, we've got that here too "NY style."
Hm I wonder, I've tried supposed NY style pizzas before and its still nothing like NY pizza. I hear its because of stuff like water and altitude that makes NY pizza the way it is. That and NY is the birthplace of modern day pizza. XD

Quote:
Originally Posted by teachopvutru View Post
I don't see anyone suggested that we eat nonliving things and live...



Well, caring about animals less than humans is different from not caring at all about animals. It's true that them not being humans, especially when they are stranger (not pet/etc), can make them more distant, but there are certain similarities, too, and they apply when cruelty is being exerted upon or responses to cruelty are involved.
Even non-living foods come from living things. Like extracts from plants, milks, eggs, etc...

Overall, I must have my meat, it's what allowed my body to be as strong as it is now. I'll be damned if I was some gangly skinny pale skinned weakling.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:46   Link #245
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teachopvutru
Well, caring about animals less than humans is different from not caring at all about animals. It's true that them not being humans, especially when they are stranger (not pet/etc), can make them more distant, but there are certain similarities, too, and they apply when cruelty is being exerted upon or responses to cruelty are involved.p
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
*nods*
I also care much less for a stranger than my best friend. Does that mean I should be allowed to torture and kill the stranger?
I don't think so.
<off topic>No, but the torture and death of a stranger would affect you less than that of your best friend, i mean look at all the murders and crimes we hear on the news, I doubt you're sprouting tears, but you would be thinking about your own safety first.
Plus, if a policeman was to come to your home to announce that it was your best friend, it'd hurt a lot more.
Same aspect can be said for a pet that has been tortured and killed and then notified to you, in comparison to a random dog that has gone the same fate.
It may hurt on both counts, but higher chances that it'd be the former that'd affect you more.
(Of course, for some humans there is no distinction)
Thus the difference and a similar aspect with eating meat perhaps. </end topic>

Although saying that, I discovered three weeks ago that as much as I love eating meat and fish, I cannot bring myself to kill the animal/fish to eat it unless it can be quick, (which takes some skill to do so without hesistation and with precision) and not start apologising to it while it's trying to still semi attack me xD
To end the life of a living being using your hand actively (as in knife or another hand tool that isn't a gun), isn't an easy thing to do, be it for an experiment (frog) or food or whatever.

However my friend took that role and I cooked it with no issues (since it was dead now), so not turning vegeterian anytime soon.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:55   Link #246
HayashiTakara
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I'm proud to say that I've hunted and killed for a meal before. The few years I've lived in florida I made some redneck friends who I went hunting with. I made a lot of deer jerky that week
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Old 2009-10-24, 23:47   Link #247
npcomplete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
O.o
I suspect from just glancing at the last page and seeing the ever complex answers from something that typically could be a yes/no answer, that a few vegeterians that are kicking up a fuss.
*hides her kebabs*
well, the whole point of the thread was asking why you do or do not eat meat and aside from myself, there are only two others here who don't (with not many posts overall). From my perspective the fuss has mostly from the inability to accept why people don't eat meat. Note that not one of us here has ever said or tried to force other people not to eat meat. (On the other hand animal cruelty is a different matter.)

The original goal of the OP here of trying to truly understand (as in empathize with) why is simply impossible due to irreconcilable differences. At best, the result is tolerance. People's opinion aren't going to change. Of course, you wouldn't have 13 pages of discussion if people just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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Old 2009-10-25, 00:00   Link #248
Alchemist007
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Everyone who eats meat should die!!!



/thread?
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Old 2009-10-25, 00:11   Link #249
SaintessHeart
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Fact : Hitler is a vegetarian. He passed a law that lobsters should be cooked using kinder methods.

The best way for cooking a lobster is to drop it straight into boiling water. It will cause it to scream, and when it stops, it is cooked.
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Old 2009-10-25, 01:31   Link #250
synaesthetic
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Oh lawd, this thread's been Godwin'd.
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Old 2009-10-25, 01:43   Link #251
Kafriel
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Quote:
Fact : Hitler is a vegetarian.
Really funny how people get all these small facts, I read that he started his campaign by offering beer and hot dogs to everyone around...
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:35   Link #252
npcomplete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Fact : Hitler is a vegetarian
"Beef. It's What's For Dinner"
- 2009

"Beef. Don't be like Hitler."
- 1940
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:38   Link #253
Alchemist007
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I remember whenever I saw those commercials I'd respond

"no, its not jackass."
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Old 2009-10-25, 03:39   Link #254
Tsuyoshi
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Beef is too heavy for me to have for dinner. I prefer to have it for lunch iibh. I can't really sleep at night otherwise.
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Old 2009-10-25, 05:36   Link #255
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
And not kill them, either? ;P
I simply could not - don't have the required killer instincts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
They exist. It's especially bad for veals, who aren't fed what they would usually need and prevented from moving around so that the iron (which is also found in their own fur, so of course, you have to keep them from grooming) doesn't darken the meat.
I think that does not really harm them.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
So a two year old child automatically suffers less than an adult - so much less than killing it would be all right in comparision?
An implication (=>) does only work in one direction. You cannot simply reverse it to prove a point. Just because it can stand pain much better (less psychological damage), does not mean one can torture or kill it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Also, it depends on the extent of pain which suffering is greater. For example, there are methods of torture that wouldn't allow you to contemplate your situation much, yet you might still wish you were dead.
I could be wrong, but I think thats because we are humans and are able to wish we were dead (mental capabilities). Instincts of animals prevent them from commiting suicide.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
Animals also have a psyche that can be damaged. For example, chickens and pigs are very social creatures. Preventing them from social interaction will lead to abnormal, often self-destructive and aggressive behaviour that isn't easily "fixed".
And that is a point where I'ld side with you. I don't support this sort of treatment either.

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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
It's a sign that even though they are not contemplating the meaning of life, their suffering might very well be able to compete with that of a healthy human adult in the same situation. Again, not understanding something doesn't necessarily make it better.
But the trauma is still less intensive. Yet it is hard to know that for sure actually. So, the best practice would be not to let them suffer.

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I have more where that came from! ;P
But that doesn't make you a better markswoman.
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Old 2009-10-25, 12:51   Link #256
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
I simply could not - don't have the required killer instincts.
That's reassuring. xD

Quote:
I think that does not really harm them.
Taking a sentient being from its mother shortly after its birth, putting it inside a box in which it can't even turn around and, later on, barely lie down and stand up is not pleasant for it. Neither is being tethered at the neck to restrict its movement even further and suffering a severe, purposely inflicted case of anemia that gives the flesh the pale colour that is wanted.
The veals have to lie down on the bare floor, since the usual bedding would contain iron, and almost always develop chronic diarrhoea as well as stomach ulcers. And that is just one half of their suffering.
The veals are pretty much bored to death. They have nothing to do besides standing around, and so you can watch them grind their teeth, move their tail around restlessly and swag their tongue. It's like a factory chicken's violent pecking or a factory pig's tail biting, if maybe less self-destructive.
This is the rule, not the exception.

Quote:
An implication (=>) does only work in one direction. You cannot simply reverse it to prove a point. Just because it can stand pain much better (less psychological damage), does not mean one can torture or kill it.
Which is why I said "in comparision".
My point is that I don't think it's a moral imperative to pick the two year old child if you are forced to torture either them or an adult, since I don't believe you have to understand what is happening to truly suffer, or that you automatically suffer less if you don't.

Quote:
I could be wrong, but I think thats because we are humans and are able to wish we were dead (mental capabilities). Instincts of animals prevent them from commiting suicide.
Probably, but that wasn't my point. My point was that you can suffer just as much if you aren't able to comprehend the situation fully.

Quote:
And that is a point where I'ld side with you. I don't support this sort of treatment either.
*nods*
It's always good to agree on something.

Quote:
But the trauma is still less intensive. Yet it is hard to know that for sure actually. So, the best practice would be not to let them suffer.
Exactly.

Quote:
But that doesn't make you a better markswoman.
Ha!
I shall show you the true extent of my skill! Prepare yourself! xD
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Old 2009-10-25, 13:46   Link #257
VVayfarer
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
If you're morally impaired and money-focused, most of us here (and anyone else who finds out) will likely shun you, but good news - you'd be very successful as the CEO of a large company. Those are the behavioral traits that many top CEOs seem to have, anyway - possible career path, there.
I remember you saying something like this before. I'm sure you understand this, but the "greedy Wall Street CEOs" and the "ruthless / cold CEOs" are a select few when "top" CEOs are concerned. When you say "top" CEO, Steve Jobs springs in mind. After him, Warren Buffet. They are both relatively successful as CEOs, but they don't seem like psycopaths.

On topic - I eat meat occasionally, since eating meat is necessary for maintaining health. It can be replaced, yes, but not very efficiently. Although I see why many people think of it as a moral problem (slaughtering animals for food), it doesn't concern me.
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Old 2009-10-25, 17:57   Link #258
kayote
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
I'm proud to say that I've hunted and killed for a meal before. The few years I've lived in florida I made some redneck friends who I went hunting with. I made a lot of deer jerky that week
you killed Bambi.

i am a vegitarian and do not think that Fish or Eggs are vegi. i find that some think that fish is vegi which i don't get as to me it's meat. been vegi all my life, am healty and the thought of eating meat, i don't think i would be able to. i mean even if it was put in front of me i just could not. i always wonderd what meat tastes like as well as being fasinated with sushi though i don't think i would ever be able to go through with it.
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Old 2009-10-25, 18:55   Link #259
Cub-Sama
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Originally Posted by kayote View Post
you killed Bambi.

i am a vegitarian and do not think that Fish or Eggs are vegi. i find that some think that fish is vegi which i don't get as to me it's meat. been vegi all my life, am healty and the thought of eating meat, i don't think i would be able to. i mean even if it was put in front of me i just could not. i always wonderd what meat tastes like as well as being fasinated with sushi though i don't think i would ever be able to go through with it.
My friend used to be vegitarian for most of his life...he had chicken and bacon...he never went back.

Once you go bacon you never go back, unless of course you dont like bacon. I just thought of the saddest thing...if you kill cows and make other cows eat that cow...would the cow's meat be tastier (Latest treehouse of horror, watch it and you will see)
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Old 2009-10-25, 19:00   Link #260
SoulCorpse
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I'll eat anything, basically. i had monkey ....um how should i say this, PENIS. and dog . i love dogs, so i cried a little when i found out.
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