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Old 2009-10-23, 17:49   Link #121
synaesthetic
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Actually, not every human can be vegetarian.

Some people cannot maintain good health without meat. I am one of those people. If I go for too long eating only vegetables, I become very sick. This has happened recently because I was financially disadvantaged and could not afford to purchase anything, much less meat. I was forced to only eat what I had stored, and what grows in the garden in my backyard.

For this period of time, I became very ill and had low energy levels. I slept much more, and I always felt lethargic. Bowel movements became increasingly uncommon (once or twice per week) and were very difficult and painful. My hair dried out and my nails became weak and prone to cracking.

Now I was still eating reasonably well. I was eating vegetables, fruits, grains and legumes. I was only not eating meat or dairy products. And when I started eating meat again, it did not take long for me to start feeling better.
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Old 2009-10-23, 18:29   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
If it's not for survival, then yes, I think it certainly is.
What gives you the right to kill plants just so you can survive? Plants are living beings and they have as much right to be alive as you. And by eating only plants, you are stealing food from the animals you love so much.
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Old 2009-10-23, 18:57   Link #123
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They're autosomal beings, they don't think or feel pain. Lesser of two evils. And if you want to really go that route, you can just eat fruit, which aren't living.
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Old 2009-10-23, 19:05   Link #124
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Originally Posted by Gin View Post
What gives you the right to kill plants just so you can survive? Plants are living beings and they have as much right to be alive as you. And by eating only plants, you are stealing food from the animals you love so much.
I am not concerned about killing, I am concerned about causing suffering.
And plants might very well not be capable of that. Even if they are, it's almost certain that they aren't able to feel pain to the same or even a similar extent an animal does, since they would have no evolutionary advantage from it (since they can't run from predators anyway).
Now, eating plants might still harm animals. However, it does so much less than eating them - animals that get slaughtered need to eat much, much more food than that which is gained from them in the end. In most cases, they are also subjected to torture before death. For the industry's profit, they are treated with incredible cruelty almost from the moment they are born.
I also acknowledge that regardless of moral concerns, most animals, human or non-human, will always put their survival first. So, if someone has to eat meat to survive, I won't try to make them feel bad about it. There are things I must do to survive that will inevitably harm others, be it animals or people.
However, I will try to reduce suffering where I can.
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Old 2009-10-23, 19:08   Link #125
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Not eating meat... would be quite an achievement for me (I have utmost respect for vegetarians cultures, but mixed feelings on modern vegetarism, especially for vegans).

I enjoy meat, and it's also a very important aspect of the cultures I come from.

I often have chicken, beef and pork. And sometimes some lamb, horse, turkey and ostrich. And of course now is the season for game!!!!!

Chicken is one of our staple, as it is relatively cheap. Here in Switzerland they are not that big and quite tasty, when I can afford it I go to my meat dealer and avoid those brazilian or european frozen ones...

Second is beef, but mostly in the shape of grounded meat, or special preparations like Bindenfleisch ... yum. Good cuts are so expensive here that I don't indulge myself often. We also eat quite a lot of veal around here.

Porks mean Bratwurst (well, not only pork, we also have beef and veal in those), and of course so many varieties of other sausages.... I also enjoy some smoked ham delicacies. Ordinarily I often eat bacon, lean cuts steaks or roasts.

Sometimes we indulge in a lamb roasted legs, racks or loins. It is a really tender meat, with a particular flavor.

Horse is STEAK! Some people find it tougher than beef, but I enjoy it.

And now is the season for GAME! I like red and roe deer, especially how we eat those here, in a red wine sauce with mushrooms, with on the side some pears in syrup, chestnuts in syrup, red cabbage and of course spatzle! I am not that fond of boar, but I should give it a chance. I have yet to try chamois, as you'd better know someone who hunt to get a taste of it.

Turkey is mostly for X-mas, but we sometime eat some instead of diced chicken.

Thanks to my butcher, I have also eaten ostrich, emu, kangaroo and quails. I also had some peacock once.

I have tried snails, and found those pretty good (but not in France, it was in the Philippines). I haven't tried the frog legs yet.

In the "exotic" category, I had some cricket when I was a kid (in the Philippines). For dog, whale or seal, I suppose that within the context I wouldn't refuse to eat some. For cat, I recently learned that in some rural areas those were better appreciated than rabbit, but I don't think I will ever fall in the context to have some for dinner (BTW, I had some rabbit several times, but I am not fond of it).


Concerning seafood, so far there are only (raw) oysters I can't deal with. I enjoy most fish, but on the ordinary I am not that enthusiastic about it, as living in a landlocked country, it's not really part of the culture, safe for a few freshwater fish.
I am not really fond of farmed fish, as they tend to be bland and fatty.

I really indulge myself into seafood only when I go to the Philippines. Crab.... awesome shushi... and so much more.

Seriously I cannot imagine living without the traditional meat preparations (and cheeses) of my country.
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Old 2009-10-23, 19:23   Link #126
synaesthetic
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Since I'm fairly indifferent to human suffering, animal suffering doesn't particularly bother me as much as it does others.

This indifference isn't borne out of any particular malice or hatred. It's just how I keep moving forward every day. If I were to get emotionally worked up by every bad thing that ever happened, I would have undoubtedly killed myself a long time ago.

I have several friends who are very empathic and do feel the world's suffering. They are always miserable, and they often remark to me how they wish they didn't have to feel bad about things. I tell them that oftentimes, I worry about myself, because of how empty I feel regarding certain events of suffering.

So I suppose that we're just all different. Some people are extremely receptive to these things and suffer themselves when they witness or feel suffering. And others are like me, who perhaps have stronger nerves, but harder hearts.
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Old 2009-10-23, 19:41   Link #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Since I'm fairly indifferent to human suffering, animal suffering doesn't particularly bother me as much as it does others.

This indifference isn't borne out of any particular malice or hatred. It's just how I keep moving forward every day. If I were to get emotionally worked up by every bad thing that ever happened, I would have undoubtedly killed myself a long time ago.

I have several friends who are very empathic and do feel the world's suffering. They are always miserable, and they often remark to me how they wish they didn't have to feel bad about things. I tell them that oftentimes, I worry about myself, because of how empty I feel regarding certain events of suffering.

So I suppose that we're just all different. Some people are extremely receptive to these things and suffer themselves when they witness or feel suffering. And others are like me, who perhaps have stronger nerves, but harder hearts.
Hm... actually, in a way, I can relate to that.
If I see something with my own eyes, I might get emotionally worked up for some time, but generally, I'm not someone who cries over the suffering of the world. I might get frustrated from time to time, and fight for my beliefs, but a lot of things that shock others leave me feeling fairly detached. I know those things are wrong and horrible, but more in my head than in my heart.
It's ironic that back when I was pretty easily moved to tears by things like animal husbandry, I was first too young/stupid and then too cynical to actually act according to my beliefs.
I still strongly dislike injustice, but I'm afraid it's not the same as empathy. Then again, it might be better that way.
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Old 2009-10-23, 19:46   Link #128
HayashiTakara
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Since I'm fairly indifferent to human suffering, animal suffering doesn't particularly bother me as much as it does others.

This indifference isn't borne out of any particular malice or hatred. It's just how I keep moving forward every day. If I were to get emotionally worked up by every bad thing that ever happened, I would have undoubtedly killed myself a long time ago.

I have several friends who are very empathic and do feel the world's suffering. They are always miserable, and they often remark to me how they wish they didn't have to feel bad about things. I tell them that oftentimes, I worry about myself, because of how empty I feel regarding certain events of suffering.

So I suppose that we're just all different. Some people are extremely receptive to these things and suffer themselves when they witness or feel suffering. And others are like me, who perhaps have stronger nerves, but harder hearts.
Next time when someone say "Its so sad the kids in (insert third world country) are suffering" Then just say "You know its so sad that you still haven't paid me back my 20 bucks"
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Old 2009-10-23, 19:51   Link #129
synaesthetic
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As someone mentioned previously, one's "justice" strongly depends upon one's culture and origins. Morality does not exist; it is a social construct of humans, a behavioral code that largely depends on the society and culture in question.

What is moral to one society or person may be abhorrent to another. Just look at the gay marriage thread--most of us don't consider homosexuality to be amoral, but a great many people do.

Just like you consider killing animals for their meat when it is not absolutely necessary is immoral, others do not believe so. Morality is extremely subjective.
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Old 2009-10-23, 19:56   Link #130
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
As someone mentioned previously, one's "justice" strongly depends upon one's culture and origins. Morality does not exist; it is a social construct of humans, a behavioral code that largely depends on the society and culture in question.

What is moral to one society or person may be abhorrent to another. Just look at the gay marriage thread--most of us don't consider homosexuality to be amoral, but a great many people do.

Just like you consider killing animals for their meat when it is not absolutely necessary is immoral, others do not believe so. Morality is extremely subjective.
Ah, I think I have read too many philosophical books that dealt with moral relativism to go very deep into this discussion, since it's a pretty complex topic that makes my head ache.
However, even though there are many moral theories in this world, almost all philosophers agree that they have to be consistent. That means that they can be backed up or attacked through logic, and that if you want to say killing a human is wrong but killing a dog isn't, you have to be able to name a morally relevant difference between the two.
This is harder than most people think.
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Old 2009-10-23, 20:09   Link #131
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It's also situational.

Killing a wild dog just for the hell of it is obviously wrong, but is it wrong for a farmer to kill a wild dog who is eating his chickens? That dog is just doing what it does--hunting for food. But it's also harming the farmer's livelihood by killing his chickens.

If I were that farmer, I would not feel badly about shooting that dog.

Likewise, killing a human "for teh evulz" is of course extremely wrong, but killing a human who is doing his best to end your life is of course not wrong.

It varies depending on the situation, but we're kinda straying offtopic again.
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Old 2009-10-23, 20:13   Link #132
Nogitsune
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Likewise, killing a human "for teh evulz" is of course extremely wrong, but killing a human who is doing his best to end your life is of course not wrong.
*nods*
There certainly are morally relevant differences between the actions.

Quote:
It varies depending on the situation, but we're kinda straying offtopic again.
Ah, it seems that way. xD
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Old 2009-10-23, 20:31   Link #133
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Originally Posted by Nogitsune View Post
I am not concerned about killing, I am concerned about causing suffering.
And plants might very well not be capable of that. Even if they are, it's almost certain that they aren't able to feel pain to the same or even a similar extent an animal does, since they would have no evolutionary advantage from it (since they can't run from predators anyway).
Now, eating plants might still harm animals. However, it does so much less than eating them - animals that get slaughtered need to eat much, much more food than that which is gained from them in the end. In most cases, they are also subjected to torture before death. For the industry's profit, they are treated with incredible cruelty almost from the moment they are born.
I also acknowledge that regardless of moral concerns, most animals, human or non-human, will always put their survival first. So, if someone has to eat meat to survive, I won't try to make them feel bad about it. There are things I must do to survive that will inevitably harm others, be it animals or people.
However, I will try to reduce suffering where I can.
You are still putting your survival over everyone else's. By eating all plants you are taking food away from animals, and I think starving animals to death is way crueler than eating them. Also, some plants let out tiny screams when they are cut, leading some scientists to believe that plants are actually capable of feeling pain.
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Old 2009-10-23, 20:47   Link #134
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You are still putting your survival over everyone else's.
Well, so is everyone else.
It's not just about animals. I will take a guess and say that you don't donate all your money to the poor, even though you could save many lives by doing so. Does that mean we shouldn't try to help them at all?

Quote:
By eating all plants you are taking food away from animals, and I think starving animals to death is way crueler than eating them.
I think you didn't get my point. If I eat a cow, that cow also "stole" a lot of food from those animals before.
Also, saying those wild animals "starve" is a bit too simple. Agriculture simply destroys their natural habitat. However, animal husbandry destroys even more - and entails the intentional killing of many more animals in addition.

Quote:
Also, some plants let out tiny screams when they are cut, leading some scientists to believe that plants are actually capable of feeling pain.
It's a reaction you can interpret as "pain" if you want, but even then, it's highly doubtful it's anywhere near intense pain, for reasons I already mentioned. If you want, I could probably find you a link to an article that deals with this topic.
However, there is no such thing as plant abuse, because there is nothing that indicates that they have something even remotely similar to a complex nervous system. This is why there is a morally relevant difference between a tree and a dog, and why no one would seriously consider giving the former pain killers if it's "hurt".
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Old 2009-10-23, 21:03   Link #135
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Quite honestly this is stupid. Eating meat is natural, there is no right or wrong. Choosing to not eat meat cause you're too fat, that's acceptable. Or choosing to not eat meat cause of a religious reason, i can accept that too, its understandable that some people need a faith to believe in. But out of morality... I really don't have enough words for that trait of thought. Eating those tasty beasts is apart of natures checks and balances. If everything was vegetarian, we'd have an overrun of animal population on top of the entire worlds vegetation would be on the brink of extinction.

Since the dawn of man we have been omnivorous and that won't change simply because a few people think its "wrong"
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Old 2009-10-23, 21:07   Link #136
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Originally Posted by HayashiTakara View Post
Eating those tasty beasts is apart of natures checks and balances.
No, actually, animal husbandry doesn't.
Quite the opposite.

Quote:
If everything was vegetarian, we'd have an overrun of animal population on top of the entire worlds vegetation would be on the brink of extinction.
We breed animals for the sole purpose of killing them. We don't keep them from eating plants, we make them eat plants.
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Old 2009-10-23, 21:14   Link #137
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Now, now, keep it civil in here. I wanted someone like Nogitsune to post in this thread so I could get some sort of discussion going. Some people like to eat meat and don't consider it cruel, and others don't.

Even though I don't understand Nogitsune's viewpoint, because to me it does not seem cruel to eat animals, I can accept it as her own.
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Old 2009-10-23, 21:16   Link #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Even though I don't understand Nogitsune's viewpoint, because to me it does not seem cruel to eat animals, I can accept it as her own.
Actually, I can partially understand where Nogitsune's coming from because thanks to my classes I've pretty much learned all about feedlots and slaughter houses, and it isn't a pretty thing to think about at all. The animals really do suffer before they're killed.

Though at the same time it hasn't stopped me from eating meat, so I don't know what that says about me.
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Old 2009-10-23, 21:19   Link #139
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Now, now, keep it civil in here. I wanted someone like Nogitsune to post in this thread so I could get some sort of discussion going. Some people like to eat meat and don't consider it cruel, and others don't.

Even though I don't understand Nogitsune's viewpoint, because to me it does not seem cruel to eat animals, I can accept it as her own.
*cheers*
But this is why this kind of thread isn't good for me. I'm always tempted to just look for a link that explains some of my views, post it and see what happens, since arguing for the sake of arguing when I know the discussion is moving in cycles isn't... well, actually, it is my kind of thing, which is probably why it's not good for me. xD
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Old 2009-10-23, 21:19   Link #140
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I know about it too--I've worked in foodservice for years. And I know the conditions can be deplorable, but I buy more "humane" meats for the flavor primarily.

I don't know what that says about me. >.>;
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