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Old 2009-12-02, 20:47   Link #81
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
huh............. but the part of concrete isn't as detailed as the heart. And as for power level she is even weaker than the other teleporter. She is not that all great and she can max teleport 2 objects at once and also she can't teleport : replace complicated things.
She already does, every single time she teleports people (including herself). It's a mandated secondary power for teleportation in general, otherwise materializing in air would give everyone an extreme case of the bends and kill them. As she can already teleport entire persons, which are far more complex than a single organ, there's no logical reason she can't do simpler organism parts.

A heart isn't that complicated either: when you get down to it, at any instant in time a heart is a collection of atoms and molecules like any other, including concrete or rods.

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Originally Posted by Claies View Post
She doesn't even need to replace the heart. It'd suck enough to have a really sharp foreign object appear inside the abdominal cavity or esophagus.
Oh, of course. There are any number of ways to do it, many of them which would get around any of Accelerators claims of defence. Filling the air inside his lungs with concrete, or just poison gas/liquids in his mouth/stomach, would affect him.

Accelerator isn't that hard to kill, actually, if you're prepared for it and/or have free reign of materials. While base-conventional means are ineffective, special means aren't. He has to breath, he has to eat, he has to sleep, and do any number of functions for his body to stay alive.
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The problem is her level of accuracy as a Level 4 can pinpoint that little area. As we can see in the power exam during the first episode of Railgun, her accuracy is decidedly not close enough to hit within an area the size of one person. Additionally, none of her teleportation efforts really stress accuracy - she takes people places or slam them into the ground. It's not surgery.
In the railgun manga, at least, she's able to accurately replace window glass with structural columns she can't see, despite being exhausted and injured. That's a far harder task of 3-dimensional accuracy than being able to look eyes-on at the target.

When you're out without restrictions, it's actually a lot easier: it's far harder to shoot to disable someone, for example, than it is to shoot to kill. Everything past that is practice, and there's no reason Kuroko can't practice her accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Yufankun View Post
Kuroko's teleport has already been stated to go through the 11th dimension. Thus items teleported do have a vector and are reflected by Accelerator's AIM.
Only when it's active (rarely now adays, and he'd have to explicitly guard from a dimension virtually no one uses) AND qualifies as something to be reflected*, and even then there are means around it when it is.

*Accelerator can't reflect everything all the time: if he did, he would die because the body wouldn't intake the oxygen, food, and nutrients it needs to survive. His lungs must be allowed to expand, his stomach digest, his eyes must receive and absorb light, the body must be allowed to function. To reflect the inner and outer workings of his own body would kill him. To simply survive, Accelerator can't block everything; even when he told the first Misaka clone that 'reflect' was his default setting, at the same time air has to be able to transfer through his skin and lungs to breath.

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Yeah I know it may sound stupid but that's how it works. Believe it's also been stated that Kuroko cannot teleport parts of objects, only whole ones, so she couldn't teleport his heart out.
While scientifically that's a meaningless distinction (on an atomic level, there are no boundaries like that), it's also explicitly disproven in the railgun manga. In chapter ten, Kuroko 'cuts' support pillars by replacing parts of the who pillar with window glass. In doing so, she is breaking a whole object (the pillar) and replacing it with a liquid (glass).

If it can be done to a pillar, it can be done to any other object... including a chest cavity. Or, if you boost your precision, the air inside the trachea which isn't technically touching him, and thus not reflected.

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Even if she could, she'd have to touch him first. If she tried to touch him his AIM would kick in and would mean he has ample opportunity to just end her life right there.
All Kuroko has to touch is one of the things she's teleporting. It doesn't have to be Accelerator; it can be her rods, a chunk of concrete, hair pulled from her own head, the clothes on her back.

There's no reason Kuroko has to be in range of accelerator to do anything. In fact, there's no reason she has to be visible, or even in the same room. Though she has a limited range, it's more than enough to hide from him, more than enough to run.

Simply preparing ahead of time could give her the means to (1) launch a decisive first strike before he's activated the network to use his powers, (2) means to strike without ever been seen or detected (cameras in rooms, while hiding in a collapsed basement), (3) avoid coming in range of him at any point, (4) outlast the 15 minutes of the Misaka network. After which point, he's virtually helpless.

These are all things Kuroko's powers allow her to do even now. Whether she would is another story.

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Spoiler for novel events:
[/QUOTE]Frankly, that doesn't mean much because for most of the characters of Index, they aren't the smartest fighters in general. Beating someone more powerful doesn't matter if they don't fight well in the first place, and To Aru has a distinct lack of people who fight well*.

Though as heroes of the story they always appear mighty and invincible, in fact all of them would be quite vulnerable to a half-decent special forces team from just about anywhere. Accelerator can be taken care of by gas, and would never have a chance against invisible odorless agents. Pretty much everyone else would outright die from a unexpected bullet ambush. In fact, even Acclerator can, if you do so immediately before or after his time limit. But even before then, he was far from undefeatable.




*That list could start with Accelerator himself, since he lost a boxing match when Touma could only use one hand to hit him, whereas any successful hit from Accelerator would have won.
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Old 2009-12-02, 23:39   Link #82
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I think you're getting a few things mixed up.
Teleport isn't exactly "replacing"
As stated before, it involves sending an object through the 11th dimension.
The glass windows are teleported into the columns without replacing anything at all.
The panes push the columns away, and then break afterwards because its nature can't hold up.
Just imagine compressing an object into an infinitely small point, and then expanding it at some other point.

Also, of course Accelerator doesn't reflect everything.
He has to allow himself be affected by gravity and breathe.
You can pretty much say that his AIM is a firewall, where it only allows things that are essential to him.

When Kuroko tries to teleport something into Accelerator, his body organ isn't getting "replaced".
If a pane gets inside, it just goes in and pushes everything else around it.
Therefore, in this occurrence, Accelerator only needs to prevent the pane from getting teleported into him.

Last edited by BlueDo; 2009-12-03 at 02:00.
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Old 2009-12-03, 00:07   Link #83
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In my opinion, Kuroko makes the series. Her obsession can be seen as a running gag, but how her actions are executed are always fresh every episode. I see the Mikoto/Kuroko relationship the same as the Kagami/Konata relationship; one would not have the same impact without the other. She is the character that makes me laugh, and she is the type of character without mysteries. No matter what type of drama or twists Railgun has, Kuroko will always be Kuroko, and that fact alone makes me look forward to the next episode.
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Old 2009-12-03, 06:06   Link #84
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Originally Posted by BlueDo View Post
I think you're getting a few things mixed up.
Teleport isn't exactly "replacing"
As stated before, it involves sending an object through the 11th dimension.
The glass windows are teleported into the columns without replacing anything at all.
The panes push the columns away, and then break afterwards because its nature can't hold up.
Just imagine compressing an object into an infinitely small point, and then expanding it at some other point.
Er, no. The Railgun manga has Kuroko exclictly describing her form of teleportation as "pushes the object that was already there and takes its spot." That is replacement.

Actually, what you suggest is replacement to, because in the expnasion from infinitely small you're displacing other things (like air), but your suggestion is contrary to the canon.



Quote:
Also, of course Accelerator doesn't reflect everything.
He has to allow himself be affected by gravity and breathe.
You can pretty much say that his AIM is a firewall, where it only allows things that are essential to him.
You do realize that firewalls are far, far from infallible? There's a reason they have to be remade nearly every month: people are constantly finding ways around them. In the case of Accelerator, he can't close certain known holes in his defense, because doing so would kill him. Those are the only holes needed to penetrate his reflection defense.



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When Kuroko tries to teleport something into Accelerator, his body organ isn't getting "replaced".
If a pane gets inside, it just goes in and pushes everything else around it.
While your last half is wrong, even if it weren't it would kill him. Quite handily, in fact.

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Therefore, in this occurrence, Accelerator only needs to prevent the pane from getting teleported into him.
Far easier said than done, and he only needs to fail once to be killed.

As Kuroko's practice and precision scale, the number of things she can do to kill him in one blow increase. Teleporting a grenade inside his stomach would be just one of them (it can get there because there is a path from outside to there without touching any part of Accelerator). Teleporting nerve agents or gas around him would be another. And that's if his reflection shield is on. Which it can only be for 15 minute increments. At all other times, he has no defense, so a pre-emptive first strike wouldn't have that resistance.
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Old 2009-12-03, 06:58   Link #85
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Since when intangible things can be teleported?

And teleporting an object into a body isn't easy when it's moving,since she has speculate the direction in which he will move and of course which leads to luck more than Math powa.

And teleporting an object is decomposing it into Atomes then recomposing it in the chosen location (unless she is using different method of teleportation..) so since Accelerator can reflect UV rays,so it won't be a problem for him reflecting incoming atomic particles no? (well,that depends on the speed of his reaction...)
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Old 2009-12-03, 07:09   Link #86
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Btw notice how different Kuroko is in normal life and in "battle mode" (all screenies are from 9th ep.):





"battle mode":





Sure, most probably battle scene and restaurant scene were made by different artists (maybe not), still it's nice to compare the faces ^^

Battle Kuroko is sooo cool! Notice how she tilts her head

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Old 2009-12-03, 07:46   Link #87
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Your putting to much on kuroko's ability despite the fact she's only level 4 and an inferior version than someone. And what's more easily to imagine. Teleporting a whole body than teloporting inside a body. Imagining a person as a whole is much more easier than picturing what's inside of it.

And as for kuroko beating up accelerator then that will never happen as long as his line of defense is their. And the only time it will be out is if his doing an attack or a move that requires his full mindset on it. Leaving no place for a small calculation of redirecting.
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:39   Link #88
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Originally Posted by HyperCube View Post
Since when intangible things can be teleported?
Since the start. Gas is matter just like liquids and solids, and she's already demonstrated an ability to teleport liquids (glass) and gas (the air and gases in the people she teleports) as well as 'pure' solids. Gases are simply molecules with more spacing; that's why states of matter are a function of both specific temperature AND pressure.

If she couldn't teleport gases and liquids, then everytime she or another person was teleported they would lose the air in their lungs and much of what's inside their stomach and digestive track (since a lot of the bacteria and enzymes we rely on compose much of the inside of our body). Blood would also be suspect. There would also be a significant pressure difference between the inside and outside of any person she teleports, which would have severe functionality and medical consequences (like the bends, eyes popping, eardrums bursting) that we never see any suggestion of in-series.

Teleporting gases and liquids are a mandatory secondary power of her demonstrated abilities.
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And teleporting an object into a body isn't easy when it's moving,since she has speculate the direction in which he will move and of course which leads to luck more than Math powa.
For all intents and purposes, it is. She does it every single time she teleports people. Earth has a oval-orbital velocity of always-varying eccentrity of about 29.8 km/sec. The earth rotates at about .47 km/sec. That means that at any given point, we are moving through space at nearly 67,000 mph, we're also spinning around in circles at over 1000 mph.

She already has a mind capable of calculating in 13 dimensions. Her teleportations are effectively instantaneous, without a delay factor. And esper brains are shown as capable of far, far more intricate calculations on the fly.

She already teleports people and objects around when they move on a scale of kilometers per second, at thousands of miles per hour. Arguing that a measly few inches or feet per second constitute an enormous barier is laughable in the context of what she already does as a matter of course.


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And teleporting an object is decomposing it into Atomes then recomposing it in the chosen location (unless she is using different method of teleportation..)
She does. She moves through 13th dimension.

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so since Accelerator can reflect UV rays,so it won't be a problem for him reflecting incoming atomic particles no? (well,that depends on the speed of his reaction...)
This rather misses the fact that Accelerator can't use his powers like he once could (which, even back then, were circumventable). By the time Accelerator would have something to react to from a teleportation strike, he would already be dieing.

Kuroko's teleportation isn't a particle stream. It's a movement through another dimension entirely, one Accelerator would have to be actively guarding every possible means through any given point, without compromising whatever extra-dimensional effects it might have on himself.

Last edited by Dean_the_Young; 2009-12-03 at 08:54.
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Old 2009-12-03, 08:52   Link #89
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Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
Your putting to much on kuroko's ability despite the fact she's only level 4 and an inferior version than someone.
Level 4 is pretty powerful in its own right, and To Aru has a distinct failing on the tactical level. It doesn't matter if someone else is better as long as your powers are good enough to do what needs to be done. The crux is imagination and will; while someone is capable of doing something with the tools at hand, it doesn't mean they could think of it themselves or would be willing to do it. With what she has now, Kuroko could kill most anyone in Index by cutting them as she did that pillar. But she doesn't, because she isn't like that. It doesn't mean she couldn't, though.

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And what's more easily to imagine. Teleporting a whole body than teloporting inside a body. Imagining a person as a whole is much more easier than picturing what's inside of it.
There's no real logical basis for this. By any measure, it's always easier to work on smaller scale with simpler systems than larger and more complicated. Teleporting a whole body requires that everything comes out the other side as it was before, with no mixups at all. Even if your goal was to completely teleport one organ alone, it would be a far smaller scale task than an entire body. You only have one organ, and not entire organ systems which must all be accounted for in entirety.

With teleporting an attack inside a body, and this is an attack, not surgery, you don't care about mixups or precision. Mixups help, not hurt, since the objective is the cause maximum internal damage. You aren't replacing his heart with a slab of concrete because you want to study his heart; you're throwing it in there to kill the son of a bitch. If you replace the entire heart, he's dead. If you replace half the heart and a lung, he's still dead. If you only cut a major artery, he's dead.
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And as for kuroko beating up accelerator then that will never happen as long as his line of defense is their. And the only time it will be out is if his doing an attack or a move that requires his full mindset on it. Leaving no place for a small calculation of redirecting.
Which is pretty much any given time now, because he can only use his powers for 15 minutes.

So Kuroko can launch a first strike. She can wait him out and launch a final strike. Or she can have someone or something else distract him, and strike an unguarded area (or make one of her own). With base tactical knowledge and preparation, she can find and exploit a weakness.
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Old 2009-12-03, 12:55   Link #90
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Since the start. Gas is matter just like liquids and solids, and she's already demonstrated an ability to teleport liquids (glass) and gas (the air and gases in the people she teleports) as well as 'pure' solids. Gases are simply molecules with more spacing; that's why states of matter are a function of both specific temperature AND pressure.

If she couldn't teleport gases and liquids, then everytime she or another person was teleported they would lose the air in their lungs and much of what's inside their stomach and digestive track (since a lot of the bacteria and enzymes we rely on compose much of the inside of our body). Blood would also be suspect. There would also be a significant pressure difference between the inside and outside of any person she teleports, which would have severe functionality and medical consequences (like the bends, eyes popping, eardrums bursting) that we never see any suggestion of in-series.

Teleporting gases and liquids are a mandatory secondary power of her demonstrated abilities.
It's like teleporting a Box and what's in his content.For exemple if i attach a rope to a person,so when i want to teleport the rope,the person teleports with it or no? it can but the rope will materialize in the person which is not safe.

So that contradics the fact of the safity of Dimensional teleportation (which is normally impossible since the human can't see farther than the 4th dimension) which is far to be safe because another dimension doesn't mean no obstacles (like gravity).

Of course if the fact of Kuroko using dimensional teleportation is stated in the story (which i didn't totally read) so i guess it's maybe related to the story.
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Old 2009-12-03, 15:33   Link #91
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Originally Posted by HyperCube View Post
It's like teleporting a Box and what's in his content.For exemple if i attach a rope to a person,so when i want to teleport the rope,the person teleports with it or no? it can but the rope will materialize in the person which is not safe.
A confusing analogy. Perhaps you would like to elaborate? Your previous argument has been that one could not teleport something into or out of the box, but now you are debating about something alien attached outside the box.

Any safety concerns are meaningless, since safety is the antithesis of what a teleportation-attack is about. Replacing the rope where vital (and even non-vital) organs are is the objective, not an unacceptable consequence.


But as I said, a confusing analogy. Kuroko teleports people with their clothes (and teleports the clothes off of Mikoto) a number of times without issue. Kuroko can not only teleport sealed systems (objects, people), but accessory items connected to them as well.
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So that contradics the fact of the safity of Dimensional teleportation (which is normally impossible since the human can't see farther than the 4th dimension) which is far to be safe because another dimension doesn't mean no obstacles (like gravity).
Since I can't make heads or tales about what your argument is supposed to be, I'm unable to see how this does or does not contradict anything.
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Of course if the fact of Kuroko using dimensional teleportation is stated in the story (which i didn't totally read) so i guess it's maybe related to the story.
It is.

We do, for example, have examples of Kuroko teleporting into and out of what are, in effect, sealed 'boxes.' In the final episodes of To Aru Index, Koruko teleports a number of people out of the underground shopping mall even after the barricade walls have come down. Even though all main and known routes were closed, to seal the intruder and anti-skills in, she was still able to bypass the barriers.

A human body is analogous to the sealed shopping mall, with a critical exception: while the shopping mall could close shutters across all entrances, a human body that wishes to breath can not. The human body is effectively a doughnut, when it comes down to it: there's a top and a bottom and an open tube through it.
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Old 2009-12-04, 04:11   Link #92
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Well,i guess i haven't been clear enough:

About the box exemple,i meant how can you teleport something that you aren't conscious about (which is the object inside the box) which has it's proper magnetic properties ,and as you stated before she must calculate to the 13dimension everytime she teleports a thing which she is conscious about (something she sees,or knows) but how can she correctly teleport something that she still ignore it's nature,physical properties,and else......

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Since I can't make heads or tales about what your argument is supposed to be, I'm unable to see how this does or does not contradict anything.
Well,i was talking about the success percentage of the dimensional teleportation of Kuruko (she never failed once as i know..) which is too high since dimensional teleportation is sending an object through other dimensions which they have their own physical properties (gravity,mass of protons,mass of neutrons,etc...).

So maybe it's normal when she teleports herself,but when it comes sending a body (to a far place) through other dimensions that she knows only from variable calculations (a human cannot see farther than 4th dimension) is far,far from safe.

Quote:
We do, for example, have examples of Kuroko teleporting into and out of what are, in effect, sealed 'boxes.' In the final episodes of To Aru Index, Koruko teleports a number of people out of the underground shopping mall even after the barricade walls have come down. Even though all main and known routes were closed, to seal the intruder and anti-skills in, she was still able to bypass the barriers.
oww,spoiled.... well,whatever...anyway i am going to finish the index series today so...
By the way,if she teleported people like did Sangoku in DBZ...well,i have nothing to say about that...
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Old 2009-12-04, 07:19   Link #93
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Originally Posted by HyperCube View Post
Well,i guess i haven't been clear enough:

About the box exemple,i meant how can you teleport something that you aren't conscious about (which is the object inside the box) which has it's proper magnetic properties ,and as you stated before she must calculate to the 13dimension everytime she teleports a thing which she is conscious about (something she sees,or knows) but how can she correctly teleport something that she still ignore it's nature,physical properties,and else......
Two different explanations, neither necessarily mutually exclusive. First, she does know: whether because the info is hammered into her brain and/or her required secondary powers let her know enough about what's in the box to teleport.

For simplicity, there's nothing in the series that implies that she breaks down/shrinks/alters the teleported object in anyway that would require her to remake it at all levels. She simply moves it, replacing the destination point.


Secondary is that she doesn't need to know what's in the box, because her AIM field surrounds the box as a whole and moves the box. For analoy, she's picking up the box itself, not unpacking the box and carrying it piece by piece.


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Well,i was talking about the success percentage of the dimensional teleportation of Kuruko (she never failed once as i know..) which is too high since dimensional teleportation is sending an object through other dimensions which they have their own physical properties (gravity,mass of protons,mass of neutrons,etc...).
Rather than assume 'it's too high,' the proper assumption from her 100% success is 'she can do it safely and proficiently'. That she can do it means she has the means to make it safe, and in context of Index that's usually handwaved away by 'their brains are made into terra-super computers.' Same way Accelerator is supposed to calculate any vector in real time, sort of.

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So maybe it's normal when she teleports herself,but when it comes sending a body (to a far place) through other dimensions that she knows only from variable calculations (a human cannot see farther than 4th dimension) is far,far from safe.
Well, it is safe.

The simplest answer is that she has required secondary powers that allow her to see and interact with the 13th dimension on a level to be safe. And if she can do those complex calculations reliably, as she does, she can make smaller calculations as well.


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oww,spoiled....
Ah. My sincere apologies: I thought it was safe to assume anyone in this thread would be willing to discuss info from the long-released series...
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Old 2009-12-04, 12:47   Link #94
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For simplicity, there's nothing in the series that implies that she breaks down/shrinks/alters the teleported object in anyway that would require her to remake it at all levels. She simply moves it, replacing the destination point.
Of course,they simply didn't want to explain the other side of teleportation.



And about this "secondary power" they haven't mentioned it in the Index anime (which i just finished) so,is it stated in the novel? or Railgun manga?

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Secondary is that she doesn't need to know what's in the box, because her AIM field surrounds the box as a whole and moves the box. For analoy, she's picking up the box itself, not unpacking the box and carrying it piece by piece.
She teleports through her AIM field? ah then that explains everything! I didn't know that she can use her AIM on other people and objects...
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Old 2009-12-04, 14:05   Link #95
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Originally Posted by HyperCube View Post
Of course,they simply didn't want to explain the other side of teleportation.



And about this "secondary power" they haven't mentioned it in the Index anime (which i just finished) so,is it stated in the novel? or Railgun manga?
It's a trope, actually. When people are given powers, they nearly always require secondary powers to support them.

Read the examples, and tell me if it doesn't make sense. I'll elaborate then. But short point is, in order to do what she's able to do, she requires more powers than they explicitly claim.
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She teleports through her AIM field? ah then that explains everything! I didn't know that she can use her AIM on other people and objects...
Well, she kind of has to: she doesn't leave her own clothes behind, after all.

Whether it's through her field or not, I can't say 100%, but it makes a good explanation why she can't teleport Touma.
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Old 2009-12-07, 10:36   Link #96
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Hmm,

It seems the "computer parts" Kuroko-chan orders just brings a person's inner personality outwards; but considering how frank she is with her sexuality, all it did is make her a little more childish...

Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if Mikoto did drink the "computer parts", don't it?
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:36   Link #97
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Hmm,

It seems the "computer parts" Kuroko-chan orders just brings a person's inner personality outwards; but considering how frank she is with her sexuality, all it did is make her a little more childish...

Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if Mikoto did drink the "computer parts", don't it?
May be she will have what she want from her onee-sama
an Electric-Hugs-Shock that can warm her, till she burn
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Old 2009-12-07, 11:44   Link #98
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Call me odd, but I find Kuroko-chan to be a very cute person; not just in appearance, but the fact the although not entirely healthy per-se, her love for Mikoto is endearingly pure and sincere.
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Old 2009-12-07, 12:47   Link #99
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Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
Call me odd, but I find Kuroko-chan to be a very cute person; not just in appearance, but the fact the although not entirely healthy per-se, her love for Mikoto is endearingly pure and sincere.
If only she didn't trade some of her computer accessories just for obtain some "medicine" to be "closer" with her onee sama, I'll agree with you, but her action sometimes give me a chill.
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Old 2009-12-07, 13:04   Link #100
Shinji103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordy Lechance View Post
Call me odd, but I find Kuroko-chan to be a very cute person; not just in appearance, but the fact the although not entirely healthy per-se, her love for Mikoto is endearingly pure and sincere.
I'd have to agree with this guy. Her extremes may be freaky, but I still have to admit that I actually like Kuroko a bit more than Mikoto.
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