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Old 2009-11-17, 06:16   Link #41
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Gné ? I never said that I did that
Sorry, I thought you did since you posted things like "this fruit contains 100mg of this etc."

Quote:
It reminds me the placebo effect. Sometimes, just because you think it's good it will make you feel good (where in truth it does nothing at all ). There are some extreme case with the placebo effect. For example, there was a person who strongly believe she had a cancer and because of that she had all the symptom but not the cancer. People should not understimate the power of the mind on the body. There are many deseace which is due to the mind.
I am still not sure of what Saint-kun means by:

Quote:
Eat well, stay fit, die anyway
It's not because we all know that we will die that we should not care of our physical condition. Plus, to have your body in good condition/shape helps to be/stay happy. Thus, a person who really lacks of vitamin C can become sick rather easily. I think we can affirm that NO one is happy to catch a cold, and even less happy to catch many colds per year.
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Old 2009-11-17, 06:18   Link #42
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Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Well, I said what is said about it, but I guess the body can filter out the amount of vitamin that is not necessary. Anyway, 10 times, might be ok (but still feel like enormous to me), but I personally wonder if 44 times the RA is really necessary. At best, it is, at worse it's a waste of money and/or dangerous.

Now don't take me wrong, personally, I am a believer that vitamins supplements, herbals tea, or trace elements (for instance, manganeze can help to reduce/suppress the allergy) help to maintain the body in good condition (but the person should have a good alimentation too. It would make no sense to eat dishes full of fat everyday, and to take supplements beside it as if it was an "anti poison"). For example, as a complement to a good alimentation, Brewer's yeast is great for the hair, skin and nails. But about taking "enormous" amount of such things, while it could be harmless to do so with the Vitamin C (but there are studies that say it can be dangerous), it can be dangerous about some other supplements.

Anyway, I am not part of those who spend time "calculating" the amount of vitamins and trace elements in their dishes and stuffs like that (No offense, Kusa, but it would be one hell of a thing to do. Cooking and eating would become a pain IMO), so i guess it happened that I ended above the RA of vitamin C.
My take on the whole topic of supplements is that the word itself describes vitamin supplements. They're nothing more than additional vitamins you don't normally take or is unable to process properly. If you have a good, balanced nutrition, you'd never need supplements. I've never taken any supplements in my life and I'm as healthy as a horse, as the saying goes. Imho, good nutrition and exercise are all you need to keep healthy and never get sick. It worked for me, don't see how it wouldn't work for anyone else.
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Old 2009-11-17, 06:21   Link #43
Kusa-San
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
Sorry, I thought you did since you posted things like "this fruit contains 100mg of this etc."
Well I will be careful with what I buy but that's all


Quote:
It's not because we all know that we will die that we should not care of our physical condition. Plus, to have your body in good condition helps to be/stay happy. Thus, a person who really lacks of vitamin C can become sick rather easily. I think we can affirm that NO one is happy to catch a cold, and even less happy to catch many colds per year.
Of course and it's dangerous to think that because we will die we don't need to care about something. It's the begining of the end with such reasoning. Futhermore, being in good condition extend your life so you live longer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
My take on the whole topic of supplements is that the word itself describes vitamin supplements. They're nothing more than additional vitamins you don't normally take or is unable to process properly. If you have a good, balanced nutrition, you'd never need supplements. I've never taken any supplements in my life and I'm as healthy as a horse, as the saying goes. Imho, good nutrition and exercise are all you need to keep healthy and never get sick. It worked for me, don't see how it wouldn't work for anyone else.
Not true. Even with a good nutrition you will not have enough trace-element on your body per day that's why you need to take supplements . If you want to have all the trace-element in your body with only a good alimentation you will need to eat many many different food per day Most of the time people can't do it. Futhermore, there is something important to know about the food : not every food have the same amount of vitamin, trace-element etc....An industrial food has less trace-element, vitamin etc...than a bio food. There is also the way of how your food is cooked etc....
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Old 2009-11-17, 06:30   Link #44
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
My take on the whole topic of supplements is that the word itself describes vitamin supplements. They're nothing more than additional vitamins you don't normally take or is unable to process properly. If you have a good, balanced nutrition, you'd never need supplements. I've never taken any supplements in my life and I'm as healthy as a horse, as the saying goes. Imho, good nutrition and exercise are all you need to keep healthy and never get sick. It worked for me, don't see how it wouldn't work for anyone else.
No one denied that sport + good nutrition is the most important.

Still, there are cases in which you need supplements. As i said, you have people who suffer from allergies despite doing sport and eating well.

You also have people who need more vitamins, trace elements, or certain nutriments (was said on the french TV by a doctor who was actually against people who take freely things without knowing a damn about it, but also admitted that you rarely get all what you need per day because there's no perfect dish, and that it is not good either)
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Old 2009-11-17, 06:33   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
No one denied that sport + good nutrition is the most important.

Still, there are cases in which you need supplements. As i said, you have people who suffer from allergies despite doing sport and eating well.

You also have people who need more vitamins, trace elements, or certain nutriments (was said on the french TV by a doctor who was actually against people who take freely things without knowing a damn about it, but also admitted that you rarely get all what you need per day because there's no perfect dish, and that it is not good either)
No doubt. Like I said, there are those kind of people, but I prefer thinking of taking supplements only if it's an absolute neccessity and you have no other choice imho. I wouldn't encourage it otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Not true. Even with a good nutrition you will not have enough trace-element on your body per day that's why you need to take supplements . If you want to have all the trace-element in your body with only a good alimentation you will need to eat many many different food per day Most of the time people can't do it. Futhermore, there is something important to know about the food : not every food have the same amount of vitamin, trace-element etc....An industrial food has less trace-element, vitamin etc...than a bio food. There is also the way of how your food is cooked etc....
Well, from my personal experience, I don't find it neccessary to have supplements. In the UK, for instance, you have a lot of adverts in various supermarkets, mostly Tesco's and Sainsburys which encourages people to take on the 5-a-day strategy. This involves taking at least 5 portions of fruits or veggies, one portion being defined by an apple or an orange for instance. If you do that, along with taking other sorts of foods, like meat or pasta for your proteins and carbs, you should have a pretty balanced diet. I do it myself and it works. Changing what veggies you have with each day works as well.
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Old 2009-11-17, 06:39   Link #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
My take on the whole topic of supplements is that the word itself describes vitamin supplements. They're nothing more than additional vitamins you don't normally take or is unable to process properly. If you have a good, balanced nutrition, you'd never need supplements. I've never taken any supplements in my life and I'm as healthy as a horse, as the saying goes. Imho, good nutrition and exercise are all you need to keep healthy and never get sick. It worked for me, don't see how it wouldn't work for anyone else.
In order to actually get the daily recommended amounts of many vitamins and minerals from food, it takes very careful selection of food and an especially wide variety of vegetables. It's not impossible to get all of these vitamins without a supplement, but it is certainly difficult. Multivitamin supplements are intended to provide a wide variety of these vitamins to supplement vitamins that you may have missed in a particular day or are lacking in your diet in general. They are indeed supplements, not excess vitamins. It's probable that for common ones, such as Vitamin C, the supplement in addition to a normal diet will be providing more of that vitamin than your body can use, resulting in it not being absorbed by your body. However, especially for vitamins and minerals that are less common in food, they provide valuable additional resources for these, which help with a variety of body functions. So unless your are incredibly meticulous with your diet, I wouldn't go so far as to imply that supplements are worthless.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't be healthy if you don't take a multivitamin. The most essential vitamins are pretty common in a normal healthy diet. However, multivitamins are a useful addition to any diet. Your personal experience of being genki from eating a good diet and exercising without a supplement isn't exactly evidence that they aren't useful. In any case, cheers to your good health.

Edit: It seems some other people posted similar points while I was leisurely typing.
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Last edited by Ansalem; 2009-11-17 at 06:41. Reason: ninjas
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Old 2009-11-17, 06:53   Link #47
Narona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
No doubt. Like I said, there are those kind of people, but I prefer thinking of taking supplements only if it's an absolute neccessity and you have no other choice imho. I wouldn't encourage it otherwise.
That really depends on the person, even when you're not ill. For example, when you have [very] long hair, it's recommanded (at least by some doctors) to get some/more/lots supplements (and I am a girl (well, I know, not all the girls are like me on that point), so I care about things like my hair a lot and want them to stay perfect )

Quote:
Well, from my personal experience, I don't find it neccessary to have supplements. In the UK, for instance, you have a lot of adverts in various supermarkets, mostly Tesco's and Sainsburys which encourages people to take on the 5-a-day strategy. This involves taking at least 5 portions of fruits or veggies, one portion being defined by an apple or an orange for instance. If you do that, along with taking other sorts of foods, like meat or pasta for your proteins and carbs, you should have a pretty balanced diet. I do it myself and it works. Changing what veggies you have with each day works as well.
The point is to do an average of the need of most people. Therefore we can't take one case as an universal truth. Plus, as a doctor (again on french TV) said it, it happens that you can see no difference between two people when they are young. But year after year, the one who doesn't lack of vitamins, minerals etc. on a long period will take the advantage on the one who was often below what his/her body needed.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-12-16 at 12:11.
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Old 2009-11-17, 07:05   Link #48
technomo12
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suggestion

sleep.............................alot!!!!!! and drink loads of water

also if not sleepy try watching either porn or hentz to well jerk off the heat

that is if you dont want to take any paracetamols and antibiotics
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Old 2009-11-17, 08:26   Link #49
SaintessHeart
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That "die anyway" means that whatever you do you will still die. Death is inevitable, so if you are trying to avoid early death by "staying healthy" it is like rounding up sheep just to cuddle them.

Personally I would suggest constant hydration. Drink lots of water, that smartens up your complexion better than any beauty product.
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Old 2009-11-17, 08:52   Link #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
That really depends on the person, even when you're not ill. For example, when you have [very] long hair, it's recommanded (at least by some doctors) to get some/more/lots supplements such as brewer's yeast. (and I am a girl (well, I know, not all the girls are like me on that point), so I care about things like my hair a lot and want them to stay perfect )
Perhaps. Most people I've known, at least, only took vitamins if they had some kind of problem or they were in a sort of rehab and they needed vitamins. In that sense, it is a neccessity. But I digress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narona View Post
The point is to do an average of the need of most people. Therefore we can't take one case as an universal truth. Plus, as a doctor (again on french TV) said it, it happens that you can see no difference between two people when they are young. But year after year, the one who doesn't lack of vitamins, minerals etc. on a long period will take the advantage on the one who was often below what his/her body needed.
What the doctor said is true, but that statement in and of itself doesn't imply that the person taking vitamin supplements has an advantage who is taking vitamins naturally from a good nutrition from the sound of things. Then again, I didn't see the program, what with me not being in France n' all, so I don't know if the doc said that.
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Old 2009-11-17, 13:36   Link #51
Kusa-San
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That "die anyway" means that whatever you do you will still die. Death is inevitable, so if you are trying to avoid early death by "staying healthy" it is like rounding up sheep just to cuddle them.
Well you know there are some people who believe that the man who will be immortal is aleready born.

By the way, I forgot to add something important about trace-elements and vitamins (well at least in France), they aren't repayable which is not the case of medicine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo

Well, from my personal experience, I don't find it neccessary to have supplements. In the UK, for instance, you have a lot of adverts in various supermarkets, mostly Tesco's and Sainsburys which encourages people to take on the 5-a-day strategy. This involves taking at least 5 portions of fruits or veggies, one portion being defined by an apple or an orange for instance. If you do that, along with taking other sorts of foods, like meat or pasta for your proteins and carbs, you should have a pretty balanced diet. I do it myself and it works. Changing what veggies you have with each day works as well.
Even with that, it's not enough. I do the same thing and even more but there is some trace-element such as zinc which is really difficult to have with a good alimentation (that's why many people take brewer's yeast by the way).
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Old 2009-11-17, 14:00   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoko Takeo View Post
What the doctor said is true, but that statement in and of itself doesn't imply that the person taking vitamin supplements has an advantage who is taking vitamins naturally from a good nutrition from the sound of things. Then again, I didn't see the program, what with me not being in France n' all, so I don't know if the doc said that.
Vitamin supplements tend to just be filtered out by the kidneys in most cases because the body can only absorb so many, which is nowhere near the overly high concentrations vitamin tablets offer, and which would have already been absorbed from a normal healthy diet.

A person is probably wasting their money buying them and they're overhyped - most health professionals who know what they're talking about will tell you that. But they won't do you any harm either, unless used as substitutes rather than supplements, so no one can be bothered to call them out on it. There's also no evidence to suggest that someone who takes these vitamins will outlive someone who doesn't.
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Old 2009-11-17, 15:22   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Even with that, it's not enough. I do the same thing and even more but there is some trace-element such as zinc which is really difficult to have with a good alimentation (that's why many people take brewer's yeast by the way).
Do you take supplements because of that then? You can take brewer's yeast to maintain long hair in good health. I don't mean to sound like a douchebag, but the other solution is simply cutting the hair. Unless you have absolutely no other option, then taking supplements makes sense, at least to me.

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Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
Vitamin supplements tend to just be filtered out by the kidneys in most cases because the body can only absorb so many, which is nowhere near the overly high concentrations vitamin tablets offer, and which would have already been absorbed from a normal healthy diet.

A person is probably wasting their money buying them and they're overhyped - most health professionals who know what they're talking about will tell you that. But they won't do you any harm either, unless used as substitutes rather than supplements, so no one can be bothered to call them out on it. There's also no evidence to suggest that someone who takes these vitamins will outlive someone who doesn't.
Exactly the point I'm trying to make. What I'm saying is that vitamins are only good if someone absolutely needs it because their body has a certain condition. It's a waste otherwise, both physically and financially.
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Old 2009-11-18, 09:39   Link #54
Narona
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Originally Posted by Kakashi View Post
Vitamin supplements tend to just be filtered out by the kidneys in most cases because the body can only absorb so many, which is nowhere near the overly high concentrations vitamin tablets offer, and which would have already been absorbed from a normal healthy diet.

A person is probably wasting their money buying them and they're overhyped - most health professionals who know what they're talking about will tell you that. But they won't do you any harm either, unless used as substitutes rather than supplements, so no one can be bothered to call them out on it. There's also no evidence to suggest that someone who takes these vitamins will outlive someone who doesn't.
It's not proven that you will live longer (actually, a study seems to have demonstrated that taking "enormous" doses of antioxidants can have the opposite effect. The doctor Michel Brack also commented on that, "that it can be dangerous"), but there are studies that demonstrate that it helps to live better, and to prevent some diseases, if you don't do it wrong. What about those? For example, given some studies, antioxidants kind of proved their usefulness against the free radicals. Plus, it is very hard for a person to get all what the body needs to not be affected by the bad environments in which we live in despite eating healthy (I start to think that there might be no report in great britain about the bad products and environment? Even some fruits and vegetables that are in sales in the supermarket are not that good for the health. There is also the pollution, in cities in particular). As Brack points out in an interview, a person would need to eat a lots and lots of fruits and vegetables to get what he/she needs (and i guess he doesn't talk about products like polluted strawberries from spain (Source of that comment: A big French documentary/report that aired a few month ago.) or soy from "monsanto"), and lots of fishes (he also pointed out that only the wild fishes are good in Omega3 while nowadays, most people mainly eat farmed fishes). And that, most people don't do it right, or can't do it.

But, he also points that it could be dangerous if a person does it wrong. In his personal opinion, he also thinks that people should come see him or other doctors to see precisely what they actually need.

I'll add that's not because a person feels good that for instance, he/she doesn't start to stock oxidizing agents or dangerous fat in his/her body that will start to cause him problems way later in his life (and by problems, I don't mean necessarily diseases that will make him/her die, but it's proven, for instance, that's the free radical make people's skin ages faster). People are imo too focused on how they feel "now". For instance, in France, there were reports of cases of people who feel super good, and are diagnostized with a disease during casual examinations like compulsory examination for their job.


That said, actually, last week, there was a Tv progam (C dans l'Air) about that (Kusa-san watched it too). There were three doctors, and while they repeated many times that people should be carefull about the supplements (they were quite against the fact that people can freely buy them without the opinions of doctors. So, they were all but the dogs of what-know companies), they :

- Quite admitted that it is very hard for a normal person to have all the necessary vitamins, minerals, trace element per day. That taking things that you don't need is not useful and can be dangerous if you do it wrong, but that lacking things, is not good either; because the body will start to wear down slowly, very slowly (the doctor used the example of a car and oil). I don't know if Kusa had the same feeling as me, but it felt like what got on their nerves the whole time is that people can take enormous doses of supplements if they want. As if everybody were morons who can't actually read the instructions and norms from the EU and french medical center that are on each box of supplements. They kind of forgot that people can also freely buy Aspirin and kill themselves by taking 50 pills at once if they want to destroy their body. Kind of hypocritical.

- When the fourth person brought quotes of some studies that demonstrated with numbers and results that some (I don't remember the exact quote for that) supplements can be of any help, they mainly "shut up".

About other studies and evidences, for example there is a big study that got published in the september 2006 entry of the Annals of Internal Medicine magazine. They studied a lot of serious studies, and demonstrated that for example the selenium and the Vitamin A helps to prevent cancers (mainly cancers of the digestive system). There is also the French study SUVIMAX about the antioxidants.

Now of course, on the opposite, you have the american study Lancet that says to have demonstrated that the vitamin A, E and the beta-carotene are useless to prevent cancer, but even that study said that the Selenium does help to prevent cancer. Lancet also demonstrated that it can be dangerous to take the beta-carotene + V-E/A. But as pointed out by a nutritionist, that study was about people who took "punctually" enormous amount of those supplements. And that the doses they used wasn't conform to the norms of the european union. Further, the scientists (Danish if i recall correctly) who did that part even admitted themselves that their works were about enormous doses punctually given to people, and that it can't be compared to the supplements that are sold to the people, and instructions from the EU.

There are more to say about, for instance, the trace elements, but since what I took time to write might be just disregarded, I feel lazy to continue.


People are free to do what they want to do, but it's kind of harsh to believe a study or one health professional's opinion/researches/results while disregarding the others.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
That "die anyway" means that whatever you do you will still die. Death is inevitable, so if you are trying to avoid early death by "staying healthy" it is like rounding up sheep just to cuddle them.
Can you quote who in this thread said that he/she does things to avoid death? You could also say that I could die today in a car accident, so I should do nothing of my life since i could die today. Or that staying healthy to be able to work hard for a good life is useless since we'll all die. Or why not that having a baby is an aberration since she/he will die too. Etc. Why not doing right now an animesuki mass suicide since we're all walking dead corpses?

Joke aside, if people do things like eating well, sport, eating supplements (for some) or herbal teas, and what-not; it's to be and stay healthy, and for most, that has nothing to do about avoiding [early] death. Staying healthy helps to enjoy life, and to live properly to begin with.

Quote:
Personally I would suggest constant hydration. Drink lots of water, that smartens up your complexion better than any beauty product.
Beside that is true that people shall drink, spouting lazy-short comments about beauty products without explanations nor facts has no value.

Last edited by Narona; 2009-11-20 at 04:07.
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