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Old 2010-12-10, 17:46   Link #921
Yot-chan
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
And as a stand-alone story, it has the obligation, IMO, to be seen as such and not try to obligate the viewer to view the characters through the lense of the series.
Hmm... I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree. I don't see why a retelling MUST be obliged to make everything clear to a new viewer. I think the filmmakers can rely on the fact the most of the people watching the movie have seen the show, and thus don't need a lot of stuff spelled out for them.

Getting philosophical about it, no reboot or remake is truly "stand-alone," since there's always the series or whatever that came before it. The reboot or remake can ignore the original version(s) as much as it wants, but it can't escape it/them.

For me, each iteration of Macross F plays on the strengths of its medium. The TV series told a nice, long serialized story with plenty of time spent developing the world and the characters, because you can do that in a TV show. The movie concentrated on spectacle and economical storytelling, because that's how movies are.

As I've said before, I think the movie was really just the staff saying, "So, you liked the TV show, huh? No watch THIS!" You may demand that the movie be a stand-alone story, but if the movie-makers don't want to play by your rules, that's their choice. Whether you go along with it is your choice, of course. But to criticize the movie for not being something it never promised to be is a little unfair, IMO.
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Old 2010-12-10, 18:49   Link #922
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Originally Posted by Shiroth View Post
Yot-chan's point still stands though, i mean you're hardly going to find just anyone checking out the Macross Frontier films. They are for fans.
I find this to be a bad mentality for film-making. How would DYRL be perceived today if it let vital characterization progression up to be only informed by knowledge of the series?

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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Hmm... I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree. I don't see why a retelling MUST be obliged to make everything clear to a new viewer. I think the filmmakers can rely on the fact the most of the people watching the movie have seen the show, and thus don't need a lot of stuff spelled out for them.

Getting philosophical about it, no reboot or remake is truly "stand-alone," since there's always the series or whatever that came before it. The reboot or remake can ignore the original version(s) as much as it wants, but it can't escape it/them.

For me, each iteration of Macross F plays on the strengths of its medium. The TV series told a nice, long serialized story with plenty of time spent developing the world and the characters, because you can do that in a TV show. The movie concentrated on spectacle and economical storytelling, because that's how movies are.

As I've said before, I think the movie was really just the staff saying, "So, you liked the TV show, huh? No watch THIS!" You may demand that the movie be a stand-alone story, but if the movie-makers don't want to play by your rules, that's their choice. Whether you go along with it is your choice, of course. But to criticize the movie for not being something it never promised to be is a little unfair, IMO.
Well, you'll have to find me the quotes from the writers then which say "Oh, and by the way, we totally expect you to have watched the series, because otherwise the characterizations of most characters will be totally hollow!".

In retrospect I am a bit surprised to see how we even arrived at this topic, because my initial complaint was about the movie version of Alto being inferior as a character to the series version. Discussing about how anime movies re-tellings of series are not meant to be viewed without prior knowledge of the series seems like kind of going off a tangent.
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Old 2010-12-10, 19:03   Link #923
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Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
I find this to be a bad mentality for film-making. How would DYRL be perceived today if it let vital characterization progression up to be only informed by knowledge of the series?
Funnily enough, that seems to be the biggest general criticism of the movie.

(What I find odd about it (and similar criticisms of False Diva, and the New Eva Movies) is that no one ever says, "Hey, I saw the movie and I couldn't follow it! What's the deal?" No, it's always, "I saw the TV series, so I was okay, but if someone just saw the movie, then they would be completely lost." Why do people get so worked up over hypothetical viewers?)

And yes, it's a tangent, but I think it's a natural one. You say Alto's characterization suffered, but it's obviously impossible to cram many hours' worth of development into a 2-hour movie. And you've SEEN the series, you KNOW how his development there goes. Is movie Alto SO different that that growth no longer applies?
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Old 2010-12-10, 19:32   Link #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
Is movie Alto SO different that that growth no longer applies?
Honestly, not a single character is wildly different. Mostly, they're superficial changes and plot adequation. IMHO, this is a topic where I disagree with the complainers.
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Old 2010-12-10, 20:22   Link #925
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Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
(What I find odd about it (and similar criticisms of False Diva, and the New Eva Movies) is that no one ever says, "Hey, I saw the movie and I couldn't follow it! What's the deal?" No, it's always, "I saw the TV series, so I was okay, but if someone just saw the movie, then they would be completely lost." Why do people get so worked up over hypothetical viewers?)
I agree , and to tug the discussion to a slightly more pragmatic level. People who complain that movies like Utahime would be hard to follow for new viewers are unaware of the realities of the anime industry.

Movies of anime like the TTGL, Nanoha, Fate/Stay night, Eureka 7, Shana, Aquarion, Rahxephon (to name a few) are, just like the False Diva, alternate retellings/compilations. These movies only get shown in a handful of cinema in Japan. In truth they are just expensive specials aimed solely at the fans who will not only buy a movie ticket but are also the intended buyers of the DVD/BR. Note that none of these shows, including Macross Frontier, has any mainstream impact. The makers can safely assume that almost everyone in the movie theatre is aware of the TV-series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Well, you'll have to find me the quotes from the writers then which say "Oh, and by the way, we totally expect you to have watched the series, because otherwise the characterizations of most characters will be totally hollow!".
I recall a Kawamori interview (I think Yoko Kanno was in it as well) just before Frontier when Satelight was working on or had just completed the Aquarion movie. He stated that the movie offered the animation team a resting period after doing a stressfull 2 cour TV-series while also considering the movie a thank you/reward to the fans for their support. What would be common sense for normal film-making does not apply in this case.
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Old 2010-12-10, 20:24   Link #926
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If there's going to be a lot of comparisons between the movie and the tv series, this thread isn't the place for it. If needed, I can create a movie/tv comparison thread where you can discuss it all you want.
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Old 2010-12-11, 04:14   Link #927
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
If there's going to be a lot of comparisons between the movie and the tv series, this thread isn't the place for it. If needed, I can create a movie/tv comparison thread where you can discuss it all you want.
I am pretty much done with the discussion anyway, since I seem to hold the minority view and it was pretty tangential in the first place. Just let me respond to the one thing that directly relates to the movie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yot-chan View Post
And yes, it's a tangent, but I think it's a natural one. You say Alto's characterization suffered, but it's obviously impossible to cram many hours' worth of development into a 2-hour movie. And you've SEEN the series, you KNOW how his development there goes. Is movie Alto SO different that that growth no longer applies?
I thought that Alto suffered significantly in the movie due to the lack of his ulterior altruistic motivation to join SMS. While series Alto outwardly stated his hate of Frontier, in retrospect it was easy to spot his distress of the prospect of its destruction and the want to protect his home ( and pay back Gilliams death and fly the VF-25, etc etc ).

Movie Alto is semi-coerced into joining SMS and I think that is a big minus for his character and it changes his motivations on a fundamental level.

I may be prejudging, because I haven't seen part two and I may also be using too fine a tool to parse character motivations, but that is how I feel at the moment about the character. Sheryl also suffers from lack of character progression in the movie and that rankles with me.
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Old 2010-12-11, 07:44   Link #928
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How was Alto semi-coerced to join the SMS? I don't remember that...
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Old 2010-12-11, 10:58   Link #929
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Ozma: Normally, even if it's a special incident you would be court-martialed for using the state of the art VF-25 without permission.
Alto: But during that time...
Ozma: Correct. We, the SMS, can act independently as a civilian organization. And so, Saotome Alto, it is up to us to decide what to do with you.
Alto: So you want to seal my mouth.

In other versions it is: "So you are blackmailing me".

Well, I could have read the context wrongly on that one, it may well have been that Alto meant that they were blackmailing him on the account of keeping his mouth shut about the whole deal and that he joined later on his free will. But it is never really made that clear, IIRC.
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Old 2010-12-11, 12:36   Link #930
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Well, that was exactly my understanding, so you may be onto something, there.
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Old 2010-12-11, 19:12   Link #931
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Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
If there's going to be a lot of comparisons between the movie and the tv series, this thread isn't the place for it. If needed, I can create a movie/tv comparison thread where you can discuss it all you want.
If the argument hold true, everyone here has seen the TV series so we could discuss that here since it won't be spoiling it at all. However, I say go for it if it's okay to make a new thread and all. The topic will definitely come up again in the future, especially after the second movie airs.
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Old 2010-12-12, 03:13   Link #932
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
If the argument hold true, everyone here has seen the TV series so we could discuss that here since it won't be spoiling it at all. However, I say go for it if it's okay to make a new thread and all. The topic will definitely come up again in the future, especially after the second movie airs.
I'd say let's wait until then at the least. I really don't know if this particular discussion is worth its on thread.
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Old 2011-07-26, 04:10   Link #933
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DYRL was epic and can stand on its own. Despite Frontier movie having epic battle scenes and even reusing some awesome scenes from Macross Plus, it doesn't really stand well on its own.

The new storyline is plagued with plot holes and unclear motives of which the writers spent zero time establishing in the beginning of the movie.

In my opinion there were plenty of filler parts in the movie that were not necessary and could've just been spent on a few shots of someone explaining the plot more deeply.

I didn't really like how the movie was the one that fell fate to the whole human(oids) defeat alien monster concept. At least in the series, there was a hint of mutual connection with Ranka being the ambassador -following in line with what Macross I, II, and 7 was all about.

This movie was more of a mashup between moments from the tv series, ranka x sheryl, no-one-is-a-villain, nudity for all, and happy-go-lucky-everyone-lives..etc..etc..

I don't really know how to rate this movie. Despite the Frontier tv series lack of using Sheryl's heritage, I felt that it was a much stronger message than this movie attempting to flesh out the lineage. I enjoyed the battle scenes, but it was a bit to Michael Bayish. I just know I can't let this movie be anything close to definitive of the Frontier universe.

My one sentence summary:
I felt like i watched a full length Macross porn movie and felt absolutely empty afterwards.
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Old 2011-07-26, 08:45   Link #934
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If you didn't like the first because it recaps most of the show, with less dogfights and more drama... wait for the second installment (due to be released by October 20), because Wings of Goodbye might change your mind.
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Old 2011-07-26, 18:37   Link #935
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Tsukiyomi, your thoughts sound a bit like the ones I had after seeing the movie. Were you also under the impression that the first movie was supposed to be a retelling while the second movie was to be a sequel? Because apparently both movies together are supposed to be an alternate continuity retelling. You've basically only seen the first half of the movie verse's story so far.

Granted I still much prefer the TV series at this point, but my impression of the first movie improved after I realised it wasn't meant to be the whole story.
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Old 2011-09-27, 08:45   Link #936
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I was rewatching this and thought I should share (for those who haven't seen it yet ):

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Old 2011-09-27, 09:29   Link #937
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I was rewatching this and thought I should share (for those who haven't seen it yet ):
Damn, that interview was BITTERSWEET!!!
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Old 2011-09-27, 22:40   Link #938
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I'm not sure if this is actually the appropriate thread for that video considering that Kawamori doesn't talk much about Itsuwari no Utahime in there, but even so translated interview with Kawamori=win. Awesome find Raile!
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Old 2011-09-28, 02:40   Link #939
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Well, this interview seemed to be around or before Itsuwari. But oh well, translated interviews are nice.

P.S. I want that robot dog!!
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Old 2011-09-28, 09:15   Link #940
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He forgot to ask the billion-dollar question:

MR. KAWAMORI, what were you smoking when you made Macross SEVEN?

- Tak
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