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Old 2009-12-18, 17:00   Link #81
erfine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wisteria233 View Post
1)And it shows her maturity and just how much she loves him.
2)Yes they are(read the earlier posts a while back which were questioning it)
3)This came from a member of the forums who actually read the novels, and is summarizing them.
4)Makes absolutely no sense

It wasn't very hard to counter your counterarguments.

Conclusion-> your arguments need work.
You know it's kinda depressing to see people attacking a parody post. It's like a reflex - people see something that looks like they oughta disagree with it, and they're already angrily mashing out a reply. As much as I hate explaining irony...

1) You already knew that Sheryl loved Alto. You were trying to prove that Alto loved Sheryl. Without an explicit statement from Alto people will always find a loophole. Even mag seemed to pick up on this one in his earlier post.

2) Canon always a trump card in debates. If you don't like an adaptation, then question if it's canon and *poof* it disappears. Just watch - at least one side of shippers will pull this with the movies as well.

3) This one is actually semi-serious. It's not a question of anyone's integrity (I appreciate the hard work put into this), but it still oughta be double checked for historical reasons. Not that it's all that hard to do.
In case you've forgotten, mag, one of theories floating around Shaloom was that he spread misinformation to support his ship - it took time to resolve the resulting stigma regarding arusherri shippers. Are you really willing to take that risk again on behalf of your ship?

4) Take the translated scene. Replace every instance of "Sheryl" with "Ranka". You see what I did there? Ha Ha? *Sigh* I give up.

Man this place is scary sometimes.
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Old 2009-12-18, 17:58   Link #82
magnuskn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
You know it's kinda depressing to see people attacking a parody post. It's like a reflex - people see something that looks like they oughta disagree with it, and they're already angrily mashing out a reply. As much as I hate explaining irony...

1) You already knew that Sheryl loved Alto. You were trying to prove that Alto loved Sheryl. Without an explicit statement from Alto people will always find a loophole. Even mag seemed to pick up on this one in his earlier post.
Actually, no. I firmly believe that Alto genuinely loves Sheryl in a romantic way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
2) Canon always a trump card in debates. If you don't like an adaptation, then question if it's canon and *poof* it disappears. Just watch - at least one side of shippers will pull this with the movies as well.
Yeah, because the movie and TV series cannot be "canon" at the same time, since they have different plots. The light novels, however, were explicitly written for the TV series.

Of course Kawamori handwaved that away for DYRL and SDFM, so who knows what we'll get for Frontier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
3) This one is actually semi-serious. It's not a question of anyone's integrity (I appreciate the hard work put into this), but it still oughta be double checked for historical reasons. Not that it's all that hard to do.
In case you've forgotten, mag, one of theories floating around Shaloom was that he spread misinformation to support his ship - it took time to resolve the resulting stigma regarding arusherri shippers. Are you really willing to take that risk again on behalf of your ship?
Shaloom was some guy who nobody ever heard of before. AlaAlba has been here for quite a long time. That's the difference.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Man this place is scary sometimes.
You clearly weren't around during the series, right? Because what you posted as a parody counted as a legit argument for most of the Ranka crowd around here.
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Old 2009-12-18, 18:59   Link #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Ah Maggie its easy to find problem. I not sneaksie like but even I can has counterargument.

1) Scene show Sheryl's POV not Alto's
2) Novels is not cannon
3) Translations not verified yet (remember Shaloom v. Macross World)
4) Alto's nickname for Ranka in novels is Sheryl
5) ????

Profit

Conclusion-> Grab popcorn this could take a while...
lol. if you think that my translations were rubbish, then so be it. I do this purely as a fan only
You can always check and read those "novel impressions" spread around the net, in blogs. japanese blogs of course...

Spoiler for three...:


Spoiler for other:


edit: WOOOOT!!! radio show 90th is out
waited it since last week, only because Endou Aya-san is the guest this time

Last edited by AlaAlba; 2009-12-18 at 19:24.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:17   Link #84
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by AlaAlba View Post
lol. if you think that my translations were rubbish, then so be it. I do this purely as a fan only
You can always check and read those "novel impressions" spread around the net, in blogs. japanese blogs of course...

Spoiler for three...:


Spoiler for other:


edit: WOOOOT!!! radio show 90th is out
waited it since last week, only because Endou Aya-san is the guest this time
Hmmm. That certainly puts things in a new light for some aspects. So, they all knew each others feelings?

AlaAlba, could you elaborate a bit on how exactly they ended the "official part " of the series, with Alto flying in his sky? From whose viewpoint was it written and what was in it?

The new implications of that scene on the "higher plane" need some examination, that is for sure.

BTW, Tak, you implied that you have the novels, too. If that is the case, could you supply your own impressions on this particular scene? The one on the "higher plane", I mean.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:42   Link #85
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
You know it's kinda depressing to see people attacking a parody post. It's like a reflex - people see something that looks like they oughta disagree with it, and they're already angrily mashing out a reply. As much as I hate explaining irony...
So you admitted to being a troll and was acting like a dick. I certainly hope you are happy for committing such moronic fallacy. I am afraid your first post failed to yield a rational opinion from your point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
BTW, Tak, you implied that you have the novels, too. If that is the case, could you supply your own impressions on this particular scene? The one on the "higher plane", I mean.
I allegedly would have them by now if not for the fact that USPS delayed my shipment, again... as usual.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2009-12-18 at 20:01.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:49   Link #86
cheesie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
You know it's kinda depressing to see people attacking a parody post.
Not that I couldn't see where you're coming from, but it would do you much more good if you had spread out those points and explained yourself in a rational manner instead of resorting to half-witted troll posts. It not only starts you off on a bad footing, but also encourages a cycle of "YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT" slanted replies that would probably go on forever. If you want a decent discussion, then ensure that your post shows it.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:59   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
I allegedly would have them by now if not for the fact that USPS delayed my shipment, again... as usual.

- Tak
Well, I am holding you to giving us your own impressions as soon as you have read that scene. I am quite too tired to think about its implications at this moment, but it'd be quite important to have a second opinion of it for an analysis of its import.
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Old 2009-12-18, 20:11   Link #88
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Well, I am holding you to giving us your own impressions as soon as you have read that scene. I am quite too tired to think about its implications at this moment, but it'd be quite important to have a second opinion of it for an analysis of its import.
Wow Maggy, you are very obsessed, aren't ya?

- Tak
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Old 2009-12-19, 03:44   Link #89
erfine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
So you admitted to being a troll and was acting like a dick. I certainly hope you are happy for committing such moronic fallacy.
Yes Tak-sempai. I'm an evil evil person. B-but we can still be lovers right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaAlba
You can always check and read those "novel impressions" spread around the net, in blogs. japanese blogs of course...
That's easy enough to have checked; even Tak could do it. I'm kinda surprised that he didn't get to it first, unless the novels were just released. But it could be his love for Sheryl is fickle and she hasn't been worth his attention lately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheesie
Not that I couldn't see where you're coming from, but it would do you much more good if you had spread out those points and explained yourself in a rational manner instead of resorting to half-witted troll posts. It not only starts you off on a bad footing, but also encourages a cycle of "YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT" slanted replies that would probably go on forever. If you want a decent discussion, then ensure that your post shows it.
They oughta catch on from the point that I blatantly crossed out, but it looks like the whole thing went over their heads. Anything more than that and it loses its finesse.

But you're coddling them too much cheesie. You should know full well that there's a dearth of debate in here because of all this barking. If a post can't even be ironic without everyone going into attack mode, then you shouldn't be surprised that people feel too intimidated to post anything at risk of seeming contrary to the "gospel truth" in here.

Not that I oughta be surprised at the disparity in the replies: Tak and mag tend to operate more like battering rams, as opposed more devious types like yourself. You know, I've always wondered... if someone like yourself were to try and make a case for Aruran just for the sake of the argument, do you think that you could give these two louts a run for their money? I'm almost willing to bet you could - you were prolly the one who gave them all... *ahem* a lot of their ideas in the first place.
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Old 2009-12-19, 04:37   Link #90
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Oh how i'd love go see Alto's last battle animated.
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Old 2009-12-19, 04:47   Link #91
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Wow Maggy, you are very obsessed, aren't ya?

- Tak
Well, it certainly does put a different spin on things, doesn't it? At the very least, it negates my long-standing assertion that Ranka did not know about how far along Sheryl and Alto had been in their relationship, when she uttered that challenge to Sheryl at the end. Which has implications of its own.

So, yeah, I'd like to know in more detail about this scene, about the last scene and, if possible, about the one where Alto does a fly-by of the bridge of Battle Frontier and salutes Sheryl.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
They oughta catch on from the point that I blatantly crossed out, but it looks like the whole thing went over their heads. Anything more than that and it loses its finesse.
I fear you think yourself too clever by far... what you wrote was a very poor attempt at satire, since it clearly was not recognizable as such by everyone who responded to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
But you're coddling them too much cheesie. You should know full well that there's a dearth of debate in here because of all this barking. If a post can't even be ironic without everyone going into attack mode, then you shouldn't be surprised that people feel too intimidated to post anything at risk of seeming contrary to the "gospel truth" in here.
If Ranka fans would have actual arguments instead of throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks, then my respect of their opinions would increase considerably.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Not that I oughta be surprised at the disparity in the replies: Tak and mag tend to operate more like battering rams, as opposed more devious types like yourself. You know, I've always wondered... if someone like yourself were to try and make a case for Aruran just for the sake of the argument, do you think that you could give these two louts a run for their money? I'm almost willing to bet you could - you were prolly the one who gave them all... *ahem* a lot of their ideas in the first place.
Yeah, right. First off, stop trying to divide Sheryl fans by smearing honey around ones mouth, while trying to rile up the others against him. You are coming off clumsy and oafish.

Secondly, we all formed our own opinions, helped along by discussion with each other. Cheesie was an important part of those discussions, but so were Swampstorm, JustinStrife, Westlo, Tak, BetoJR, Teletha, Raile, etc. etc ( the rest please don't get mad at me for not listing you, I know you were there! ^^ ).

2/10 for a Troll post.
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Old 2009-12-19, 04:53   Link #92
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
That's easy enough to have checked; even Tak could do it. I'm kinda surprised that he didn't get to it first, unless the novels were just released. But it could be his love for Sheryl is fickle and she hasn't been worth his attention lately.
Let's put it this way: Most novel adaptations (adaptations, mind you! Not spin-off, side-story like... IDK, G00 mebbe? ) is really degenerated from the original. Most of the time. Not to say that every anime-to-novel adaptions sucks, but still... Think about w/e Blockbuster movies being turned into novel in English, I think that gives you the idea of how most of people feel It was mainly due to the story-writing I guess, which feel so flat and not too rich of language flavours, not even attracting you to keep reading it.

(I mean, c'mon, I only speed-read Persona 4 novel-consisting of various things that was not in the game-, but while some of the stories especially the Valentine one really make me curious, I will admit that the story-writing is so-so at best )

I actually am not too interested at buying the novel in Kinokuniya, even with AlaAlba's informative summaries. Most probably because laziness there is no motivation to read the pages of texts even though sometimes, I wonder what difference is there between the novel version with the anime. Then again, I'm not an avid literature person... O well...

That and my money, as little as it is, tend to go somewhere else *cough shippingproducts cough* so me and most people are saving it for better use
Quote:
But you're coddling them too much cheesie. You should know full well that there's a dearth of debate in here because of all this barking. If a post can't even be ironic without everyone going into attack mode, then you shouldn't be surprised that people feel too intimidated to post anything at risk of seeming contrary to the "gospel truth" in here.

*cuts for language problems 8DD;;;*
No more cheesie's rant tl;dr, please ;_; I know lots of people were crying just because she fangirl, oh yes... Westy, YOU'RE PROOF.
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Old 2009-12-19, 06:40   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga View Post
Let's put it this way: Most novel adaptations (adaptations, mind you! Not spin-off, side-story like... IDK, G00 mebbe? ) is really degenerated from the original. Most of the time. Not to say that every anime-to-novel adaptions sucks, but still... Think about w/e Blockbuster movies being turned into novel in English, I think that gives you the idea of how most of people feel It was mainly due to the story-writing I guess, which feel so flat and not too rich of language flavours, not even attracting you to keep reading it.

(I mean, c'mon, I only speed-read Persona 4 novel-consisting of various things that was not in the game-, but while some of the stories especially the Valentine one really make me curious, I will admit that the story-writing is so-so at best )
Novelizations of movies or TV series have a track record of being poorly realized, that's true. OTOH, most fans of literature cringe at movies or TV series being made out of their favourite works, since so much is lost in the translation.
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Old 2009-12-19, 07:46   Link #94
erfine
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@Nat
B-but cheesie makes such delicious tl;dr! You know you want to see it too!

@maggie
Hm. I see respect as a simple human decency that you give to everyone even if you don't think they're the coolest thing since sliced bread.

How do you say what's an "actual" argument and what isn't? For example, the novel's take on ep 24 doesn't show any new information about Alto - he has all the same lines as before. So if you watched the show and didn't see the scene as proof that Alto loved Sheryl, then reading the novel isn't going to change your interpretation of that scene. Compare that with the novel's rendition of ep 22, where someone following the novels could now say that Sheryl and Alto passed the night together (since the novel states it outright, where the TV series did not).

Now I understand you've argued these points many times over, so your frustration comes out readily. But it isn't always the same people asking these questions. Sometimes, it looks almost like you're trying to "teach" people the "correct" way of thinking instead of persuading them. Not only is that a turn-off for the person you're trying to convince, but it's also a turn-off for people watching, too.

Wouldn't it be nice if instead of seeing even relatively neutral people hiding out in all different forums complaining of how abusive Sheryl fans are, people said "Yeah, I don't really agree with what their opinions, but they're a real classy bunch. They treat everyone with respect." It's not just other people's opinions of you that's on the line: it's people's opinions of the fandom as well. But the onus is on everyone to live up to that kind of standard.

I'm not trying to cause in-fighting; It's not like you can really disagree with someone in your ship even if you think that their approach is inappropriate.

Getting to your ideas about the series... Hm. How bout this. Pick a suitable thread and write your ideas about the meaning of Alto's paper airplanes. Take your time and show me your thinking. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with!
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Old 2009-12-19, 08:05   Link #95
magnuskn
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Originally Posted by erfine View Post
@maggie
Hm. I see respect as a simple human decency that you give to everyone even if you don't think they're the coolest thing since sliced bread.
I meant the respect a measured opinion deserves. Of course you can choose to misunderstand this any way you like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
How do you say what's an "actual" argument and what isn't? For example, the novel's take on ep 24 doesn't show any new information about Alto - he has all the same lines as before. So if you watched the show and didn't see the scene as proof that Alto loved Sheryl, then reading the novel isn't going to change your interpretation of that scene. Compare that with the novel's rendition of ep 22, where someone following the novels could now say that Sheryl and Alto passed the night together (since the novel states it outright, where the TV series did not).
An actual argument uses logic and intelligence to extrapolate a probable outcome from the actual events. A lot of Ranka shipper arguments use logical fallacies or incomplete arguments to sustain their ship, relying on very, vey weak evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Now I understand you've argued these points many times over, so your frustration comes out readily. But it isn't always the same people asking these questions. Sometimes, it looks almost like you're trying to "teach" people the "correct" way of thinking instead of persuading them. Not only is that a turn-off for the person you're trying to convince, but it's also a turn-off for people watching, too.
Hey, I'm open to them actually giving me a plausible reason why the Alto x Ranka relationship evolved in any measure beyond Ranka having an unrequited crush on Alto. Apparently no one can bring it, so what can I do? It seems readily apparent that the side of Sheryl shippers is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Wouldn't it be nice if instead of seeing even relatively neutral people hiding out in all different forums complaining of how abusive Sheryl fans are, people said "Yeah, I don't really agree with what their opinions, but they're a real classy bunch. They treat everyone with respect." It's not just other people's opinions of you that's on the line: it's people's opinions of the fandom as well. But the onus is on everyone to live up to that kind of standard.
You know why Ranka shippers seldomly get my respect? Because the vast majority I have seen are unable to string together a logical argument, using evidence from the series. The only one who does a decent job is Dex, who has my respect for that. But he seems unwilling to really put the work behind it to make a convincing case, either because he does not want to bother or, more likely to me, because there is no real case to be made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
I'm not trying to cause in-fighting; It's not like you can really disagree with someone in your ship even if you think that their approach is inappropriate.
You tried to prop up Cheesie in a way designed to piss Tak and me off. And you did it so obviously that even a blind man could see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Getting to your ideas about the series... Hm. How bout this. Pick a suitable thread and write your ideas about the meaning of Alto's paper airplanes. Take your time and show me your thinking. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with!
Alto likes airplanes because they represent his desire to fly and for personal freedom and because his mother, whom he misses very much, made them. Not really a topic one needs to write a novel about.
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Old 2009-12-19, 08:26   Link #96
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnuskn View Post
Novelizations of movies or TV series have a track record of being poorly realized, that's true. OTOH, most fans of literature cringe at movies or TV series being made out of their favourite works, since so much is lost in the translation.
OT, but indeed. As much as I am not too much a fan of Dan Brown, I can safely say that all his adapted to movie books are boring OTL Then again, I might have no mercy in putting down everything that doesn't live up to my expectation :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
@Nat
B-but cheesie makes such delicious tl;dr! You know you want to see it too!
C-Cheesie has made my eyes get more light exposure than ever in every of her posts! ;_; I mean, look at how she wanted to get across a simple "*insert one statement topic here*" into 3 paragraphs, 4 lines per paragraphs! ;A;

That said, I still can't deny that I labu cheesie and her awesome fangirling analysis-rant. <3 In platonic, non-romantical way before she jumped the guns again and accuse me of being yuri at her 8'D Love your own master Swampy cheezu!
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Old 2009-12-19, 08:33   Link #97
KaoruLia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Ah Maggie its easy to find problem. I not sneaksie like but even I can has counterargument.

1) Scene show Sheryl's POV not Alto's
2) Novels is not cannon
3) Translations not verified yet (remember Shaloom v. Macross World)
4) Alto's nickname for Ranka in novels is Sheryl
5) ????

Profit

Conclusion-> Grab popcorn this could take a while...

Yeah I get what you mean

Well I guess all this tl;dr was indirectly my fault because I wanted to spark some healthy discussion when I said 'So can we all agree that Alto went to confess.'

I'm just happy that we get all this beautiful description of Sheryl's love for Alto in the novels. It may not be canon, but at least it enhances their relationship better.


On a side note: Just got back from the largest anime convention in my country, and I noticed there were lots of Sheryl cosplayers and artworks! Really happy about that. That confirms that she is way way more popular than Ranka, really
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Old 2009-12-19, 09:13   Link #98
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Originally Posted by AlaAlba View Post
lol. if you think that my translations were rubbish, then so be it. I do this purely as a fan only
You can always check and read those "novel impressions" spread around the net, in blogs. japanese blogs of course...

Spoiler for three...:
Hey! They never actually
Spoiler:
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Old 2009-12-19, 09:26   Link #99
KaoruLia
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Originally Posted by glyph View Post
Hey! They never actually
Spoiler:
Good point. Did you miss out some stuff, AlaAlba?

Spoiler for triangular:
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Old 2009-12-19, 10:05   Link #100
Tak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
That's easy enough to have checked; even Tak could do it. I'm kinda surprised that he didn't get to it first, unless the novels were just released. But it could be his love for Sheryl is fickle and she hasn't been worth his attention lately.
And... why do I want to read about people's impression on the same novel that I shall be reading?

Thats like asking O'Reilly to give me an opinion of my opinion on the news, because I cannot possibly formulate an opinion by myself.

Aye, let us be lazier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Yes Tak-sempai. I'm an evil evil person. B-but we can still be lovers right?
Oh joy. Hey Natsuki, I guess she just became the newest addition to my ever-growing harem. Should I put the dress on her or what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erfine View Post
Not that I oughta be surprised at the disparity in the replies: Tak and mag tend to operate more like battering rams, as opposed more devious types like yourself.
In the armed forces of the Great Holy Galactic Fairy Empire, every chosen member is expected to fulfill their given duty as we perform a variety of roles while countering an external threat. What you have described is nothing more than our trusted doctrine of combined-arms tactic.

- Tak
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Last edited by Tak; 2009-12-19 at 10:43.
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