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Old 2009-12-19, 19:19   Link #701
MisterJB
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What exactly is your point? That Claymores can grow from child to woman?

You are not understading. Clare and Teresa probrably did not became Claymores until they reached adulthood. We all know that Claymores can mature.

On the other hand, Riful became a Claymore while she was still a child and she Awakened while she was a child.
We have seen that Awakened Beings can't age so, a Claymore that Awakened while she was nine years old will have the body of a nine years old child forever.
And a nine years old child can't give birth, Riful who Awakened while she was child won't ever be able to give birth but someone like...Agatha, for example, who Awakened as an adult migth be able to do it.

And if you think about using Priscilla's case to counter my point that Awakened Beings can't age, then have in mind that Priscilla shrank because she stopped eating human's guts.
Riful admitted on the "Witch's Maw" that all she ever did after Awakening was eating and sleeping and that Galatea said that Riful was the youngest Claymore ever to be number 1.

All of this points to the fact that Riful Awakened as a child. She is forever trapped on the body of a child and that's why, IMO, that we don't see little Rifuls walking around.
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Old 2009-12-19, 19:19   Link #702
Korinov
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Infertility (or not) of both male and female claymores have been discused here quite some times and we've never reached any convincing conclusion.

Personally, I believe the mutation process they endure when their bodies are fused with "yoma flesh", leaves them sterile. And if not, the MiB themselves make sure their loyal soldiers won't have any kind of "reproductional accident". Now then, since it seems that awakening somehow can restore (or at least 'fuse better') internal injuries, it's unclear if an awakened claymore can regain the capability to reproduce.

Mi final opinion: until I see in this manga a breeding of a claymore/awakened being, or at least someone saying clearly it's possible, I'll maintain that neither claymore warriors neither awakened beings can have children. And please, don't try to bring real physics and/or statistics so often into a fantasy comic, or Chuck Norris will start killing catgirls without mercy
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Old 2009-12-19, 19:43   Link #703
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Chuck Norris huh?

At any rate, I pretty much agree with you. Claymores definitely cannot reproduce, but their is a a possibility that Awakened Beings can which I'm leaving out in the open. Good material for fanfiction when all else fails.

--

MisterJB is right; awakening freezes you in the physical age you were when you awakened; normally, this is in the physical prime of life as Claymore don't age physically past a certain point. Obviously however, since orphans are picked up when they are children, some make it to that age, others die, while others like Riful awaken before that time and now pay the price. All the other AB's however appeared to have been loyal soldiers and served at least, a fairly large amount of time since they are all grown adults.

As for that AB that Ophelia killed....she's a mystery to be honest.

And yes, Priscilla is a exception is every sense of the word. Could SHE bear children? I'm leaning more towards yes then Riful, because, despite her baby-face and big brown eyes, she's always been a little older then Riful. Now that's she's regained her natural growth with some fresh "nutrition", she looks like someone in her late teens. Even before then, when she was with Isley, if you compare the faces of her and Riful doing that mexican-standoff during Riful's recap, you can see Priscilla is older.

Of course, all else fails, just look at busts and compare. Riful doesn't have one whereas Priscilla does; as hilarious as that sounds, it at least shows us she made it to adolesence and has to have been, at the very very very least, 12 years old as a warrior(not to mention, she's taller then her too) Riful? I'm gonna say 9 years old, maybe 10. You can argue that she's merely flat-chested, but I'm not buying it. Maybe if she was an adult, obviously I would agree(after all, most of the warriors are adults and they don't exactly have twin juggernauts), but not like this.

You can also argue that her appearance, and thus her age, has changed because of Yagi's drawing style improving over-time they in the early chapters. Even then, it wouldn't matter because, whether you look at her in the Witch's Maw, or how she's drawn now, she's still virtually the same, face, build and all. Maybe the details are refined a bit, but her body tone hasn't changed whatsoever, just the detail.

But, again, Priscilla has always been an exception in just about every aspect, no matter which way you look at her, so it's better to focus on the others.

Last edited by Shiek927; 2009-12-19 at 20:47.
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Old 2009-12-19, 22:55   Link #704
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
At any rate, I pretty much agree with you. Claymores definitely cannot reproduce
It doesn't hurt to try. Let me volunteer. And I pick all that remains of the 47, minus Rachel...and Maita.
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Old 2009-12-20, 00:18   Link #705
[thousandmaster]
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Originally Posted by khryoleoz View Post
It doesn't hurt to try. Let me volunteer. And I pick all that remains of the 47, minus Rachel...and Maita.
Rachel might be the one willing and the rest shooting you down.
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Old 2009-12-20, 01:12   Link #706
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Originally Posted by Hedge
shiek,

i hope you're aware there ARE MANY adult women with flat non-existent protruding breasts. women are able to be adults without breasts bulging out. and despite how flat their chests might be, they DO have mammary glands inside which still secrete milk. the noticable bulging out breast is merely the fat (and whatever the genetics' stuff that determines big breasts vs flat breasts, besides fat amount) between nipple and muscle underneath
Did you read my post Hedge? or are you just ignoring thing that I say and making me repeat myself?

"You can argue that she's merely flat-chested, but I'm not buying it. Maybe if she was an adult, obviously I would agree(after all, most of the warriors are adults and they don't exactly have twin juggernauts), but not like this."

I said plain as day, I'm aware of this. Surely you think i'm not stupid enough to think that all women have double D's or something . As far as busts go, what Yagi has done is definitely realistic with all the women and what you would normally see. Frankly, I'm not complaining.

However, that's not the point, because the argument doesn't work here. Riful is not an adult who simply has a flat-chest, she is a child who has no chest at all(....well, you know what I mean ).

As for your "known" record, I don't know here you're getting it from, but I see that as more of an exception then anything else. For most people, puberty begins at 9-10 years old, and adolesence begins roughly at 13. That said, your story is pretty disturbing 0_o.



Quote:
also, you and misterjb are NOT right.

we simply don't know. thus you and misterjb can't be right. there's NOTHING conclusive to make you and misterjb right.

total erroneous statement by both of you.
About what? What are we so wrong about?

And would you mind giving us your explanation then since we're so wrong?
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Old 2009-12-20, 01:55   Link #707
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it is the known record (world record). so no, it definately is not a common occurance, lol.
Theeeeeen.....what's the point of bringing it up? You tried to give off the impression that it's normally possible for all girls to be like that, when she is just a crazy situation, sad is it is.

Quote:
you don't know what age riful is, and for that matter, heck AB's/AO's might not have age/development. ABs/AOs might be developed from creation to death, there might be no growth in them at all. they aren't even human for that matter. they could appear as not even a year old human baby, but be fully reproductively able since they are a different species then humans.

both of you are merely trying to assert a complete baseless view of yours that is 100% unconclusive in the manga, either way. offsprings can exist or they can't. manga doesn't conclude either way.
What do you mean we're trying to "assert"? We are trying to explain our beliefs and point-of-views on the matter. Why are you jumping the gun like this, like you always do?

Yes, offspring may exist or don't exist, I'm just giving saying what I think could be possible based on evidence. I couldn't care less if it was conclusive or not, when it can't be proven either way to begin with. You seem to think nobody is aware of this except yourself.

And what's up with this with your entire first paragraph?

you don't know what age riful is


Well, yes, I don't, that's why I'm making educated guesses. You honestly think she's a adult when it's been implied since Day 1 that she's not? far from it infact?

Just look at her Hedge, how old do you think she is? based on everything we've ever heard of her, how old? (and for the love of god, don't say something like "she's around 100 years old")



heck AB's/AO's might not have age/development


.....they are the end-result and goal of the operation....soo.....yeah, development has alot to do with it.

All things age, even if they are physically frozen in the age they are, even if you believe they have immortality. The fact that Priscilla can lose and regain her physical growth says they still can have much physical development in the AB state itself.

I really don't understand what you're trying to say here at all 0_0

ABs/AOs might be developed from creation to death, there might be no growth in them at all.

The heck does that mean?

They are "developed" from humans who went under the operation, became warriors, and Awakened....yes, their is alot of growth and development involved. I shouldn't have to be explaining this to you. Even if you ignore this...your own words contradict itself Hedge:

Because if something is developed from creation to death....then their is growth involved. Development and growth are the same things Hedge, they are synonyms. The typical difference however, is that development is usually used for artificial or man-made things whereas growth is used for biological and living things.



they could appear as not even a year old human baby, but be fully reproductively able since they are a different species then humans.


..........

Wait wait wait......

Are you telling me their could be a Baby AB somewhere? That the Organization picked up a baby, made it a warrior....and it awakened?.........and it could have babies of it's own?

What the hell are you talking about?

The only other way I can interpret your wording is that an AB could disguise itself as a baby.....but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever either and we have no evidence of AB's disguising themselves as anything, other then turning into their human form.

The only thing sensible thing I get from this is that they could reproduce...which means you agree with my belief, or at the very least, acknowledge the possibility and give up that whole "assert your inconclusive" stuff you were shouting a second ago.

.........

MisterJB, you try talking to him, I'm not sure if we're even speaking the same language anymore

Quote:
my apologizes, as i hadn't read that bottom section of yours in that post. i'll edit up my other post and remove that mistaken section of mine.
Not to come off as rude Hedge, but it says alot about your character when you rush to make an Engrish rant about me and what I say, that I'm "asserting", when you haven't even fully read what I've written.

And don't edit it, it's sickening when you constantly edit your own posts and change what you say instead of making a new post, and assuming people look back at your edited posts.

Last edited by Shiek927; 2009-12-20 at 02:26.
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Old 2009-12-20, 03:43   Link #708
Solace
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You guys are killing me here. Look, use some logic.

If the Organization or their experiments thought it was a good idea to make a baby, they would have done it. It had to occur to them at some point that there would be possibilities in experiments with offspring. So why isn't there one in the story? Simple, there are three reasons.

1. It's not possible.

2. It is possible but not worth it.

3. Yagi doesn't want to go down that road.

Now stop arguing about Riful's status as a loli please. I mean really, reading posts arguing if she's gone through puberty or not is just weird.
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Old 2009-12-20, 04:58   Link #709
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But but but... we haven't even started posting pictures of child porn in order to compare bust sizes yet!
Just kidding.
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Old 2009-12-20, 11:35   Link #710
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Cyclone is right!
And I was just starting to get turned on!

So please continue, you two pervz

jkjk
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Old 2009-12-20, 11:57   Link #711
Shiek927
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
You guys are killing me here. Look, use some logic.

If the Organization or their experiments thought it was a good idea to make a baby, they would have done it. It had to occur to them at some point that there would be possibilities in experiments with offspring. So why isn't there one in the story? Simple, there are three reasons.

1. It's not possible.

2. It is possible but not worth it.

3. Yagi doesn't want to go down that road.

Now stop arguing about Riful's status as a loli please. I mean really, reading posts arguing if she's gone through puberty or not is just weird.
At the very least, its providing some laughs, considering I'm not really taking this seriously .

We've already been through this discussion a few times already and kept arriving at Number 3. The only reason it's STILL going in is, we're doing is just passing the time till next chapter .

What's wrong though with our conversations though? Yeah, their's only one person who doubts Riful's age when it's been implied she's as young as she looks, but the actual topics(offspring, age etc etc) are actually pretty cool. These are the kinds of things that aren't spelled out for us, so it's fun to talk about and speculate, not to mention everyone shows off their point-of-view and how they got there.

I think she's just a little girl, so do you apparently, but Hedge does not, which means we should at least hear him out.

No need to try to kill it when their are worse things we could be talking about then how old the characters are. I'm sure the topics have crossed everybody's mind at least once.

All else fails, it's either this......or going back to Teresa vs Priscilla, take a pick

Cyclone and Arkham though.....just ignore them

Last edited by Shiek927; 2009-12-20 at 14:15.
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Old 2009-12-20, 13:03   Link #712
Shiek927
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Riful could be the same. early puberty, despite her possible young age.
Hmmm....I see your point now.

But of course, that begs the question then, why hasn't she had any kids then?

Again, it goes back to Yagi; either he didn't want such a concept, didn't think of it, or just ignored it.

Quote:
you can NOT make an assertion on whether there's offspring or not, including that ABs/AOs don't continue to develop to maturity/primehood, you are not supported at all by the manga.
That has more to do with logic Hedge; it's logical that the warriors permanetly be in the best shape of their life, all the time. Considering how old they are and can become, and the fact we've got warriors pulling off superhuman moves despite being faaaar past the age most humans can consider their peak, it makes sense that something like this is going on.

You can't constantly be going back to the manga every single time Hedge, because some things simply aren't in it. Yagi has purposely done so for us to come up with it on our own.

This whole discussion about age and offspring...neither of which are really at all written about, keep that in mind

Quote:
EXACTLY. dogs are only 3 human years old, yet they are full grown adults. bacterii/virii are 1 human second old, yet they are full grown adults and usually have ALREADY had many many milliseconds of generations of offspring.
Rofl, while I get where your going with this, I think you know from my last post how horrific and hilarious you made your wording .
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Old 2009-12-20, 16:35   Link #713
revan5
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
You guys are killing me here. Look, use some logic.

If the Organization or their experiments thought it was a good idea to make a baby, they would have done it. It had to occur to them at some point that there would be possibilities in experiments with offspring. So why isn't there one in the story? Simple, there are three reasons.

1. It's not possible.

2. It is possible but not worth it.

3. Yagi doesn't want to go down that road.

Now stop arguing about Riful's status as a loli please. I mean really, reading posts arguing if she's gone through puberty or not is just weird.
Hey, I'm with you on this one Solace, and it would be easy to dismiss this conversation out of hand, except of course for one thing...it reads like a gossip magazine conversation. It sort of reminds me how they'd cover this in the celebrity magazines...

"Is Riful's boyfriend Dauf Impotent? Will she ditch her fat boy-toy? Read the latest on page 6!"

"Agatha shares her latest bedtime secrets! For more turn to page 13!"
and so on...

I mean, reading this debate about Riful reminds me EXACTLY of that kind of magazine coverage. People dismiss it as trash, and then similarly can't help but dig in, especially when it involves a celebrity like Tiger Woods. For us, that "celebrity" seems to have morphed into Riful. Everyone knows the nature of her character and everyone knows what she looks like, but the uncertainties of her relationship with Dauf and her age lead to continual gossip magazine-like conversations.

One glance at the "Biology of Claymores" thread confirms this conversation and others like it have been around a long, long time. Why, for instance, if this is really so new, was the starting conversation in that thread about this very idea?

They started out asking if Claymores could have children, and this conversation is a mere step away asking if Awakened Beings could have children. It suggests to me not a one-time conversation you'll be able to stop Solace, but that this is part of an ongoing 4-year-old debate. In other words, the best you'll be able to do is tamp down on the more extreme sides of the debate while it continues to pop up randomly.

But as for settling the debate, I envision Yagi solving this debate in the final chapter or two of Claymore...

Claire, Raki, Miria, and Galatea are sitting at a Rabona tavern, enjoying the fruits of victory and large amounts of alcohol. But Claire's barely touching her drink...

Raki: "What's the matter Claire? You haven't been looking so good in the last few days..." (takes a big swig of beer)
Helen enters the room, "Oi maties, I've brought the boys (Galk and Cid), so let's get this party started! Bartender, bring my pals another round of beer!" Helen begins swigging beer left and right..."Hey Claire," Helen yells, reaching to slap her on the back, "don't be such a downer!"
Claire catches Helen's arm before it hits her back, "Don't Helen," she says in an icy voice.
Helen: "What's with you?"
Claire (quietly): "I'm pregnant"
Raki: (chokes on his beer and falls over in his chair (nobody moves to help him))
The end

If not quite the perfect ending it is a humorous one...
The problem for you Solace is that everyone and their pet moose has an opinion as to whether or not that's possible with just about every female character in the game. My favorite involves Helen finding out from the doctor that she's an expectant mother...(hilarious nightmares ensue)
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Old 2009-12-20, 16:44   Link #714
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Roflmao, well, I guess a gossip magazine is one way of putting it

Now that I think about it, Teresa vs Priscilla is alot like that too
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Old 2009-12-20, 17:20   Link #715
chibamonster
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While Yagi hasn't children much, I think he is skirting the idea already. Alicia and Beth were taken when they were infants (I do believe, I haven't double checked the raw on that). Also there is Miata who has some serious mother issues. Yagi loves foreshadowing too much to have Miata's mother just be another claymore's sad past. There will be some substance to the mother thing.

And I think Yagi will probably talk about children in the series. Since I've been reading Claymore Yagi has answered a ton of our questions; he gave us a map of the island, he explained why the swords don't break, he showed what happens when AB flesh is put into a human and so on. I am guessing he will do it again with this topic.
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Old 2009-12-20, 17:27   Link #716
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Originally Posted by chibamonster View Post
While Yagi hasn't children much, I think he is skirting the idea already. Alicia and Beth were taken when they were infants (I do believe, I haven't double checked the raw on that). Also there is Miata who has some serious mother issues. Yagi loves foreshadowing too much to have Miata's mother just be another claymore's sad past. There will be some substance to the mother thing.

And I think Yagi will probably talk about children in the series. Since I've been reading Claymore Yagi has answered a ton of our questions; he gave us a map of the island, he explained why the swords don't break, he showed what happens when AB flesh is put into a human and so on. I am guessing he will do it again with this topic.
that's right! y'all have patience and the question of children will be answered soon enough. ^^ no point in biting each other heads off...
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Old 2009-12-20, 17:35   Link #717
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One thing I'm hoping to see is more on maps; like a more detailed geographic map, or even a world map showing the mainland.

Their also isn't a a name for the world yet, or even the continent as a whole, that would be nice
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Old 2009-12-20, 21:08   Link #718
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It suggests to me not a one-time conversation you'll be able to stop Solace, but that this is part of an ongoing 4-year-old debate. In other words, the best you'll be able to do is tamp down on the more extreme sides of the debate while it continues to pop up randomly.
*nods* I'm not really trying to put a stop to the discussing, just hopefully painting some logic on the otherwise stranger points in some of the thinking I've seen.

If I really wanted to, I could go on a rampage and wipe the discussion out entirely. Alas I've not succumbed to the powers of the dark side just yet.

Personal opinion here - I think the baby angle is over done in monster stories. Mostly because the babies are always elevated to some kind of "special" status (chosen one type crap). Does anyone honestly want to see some all powerful demon spawn of Clare and Raki, for instance? Sure it could be interesting but the idea isn't very original. There's plenty of super strong characters in the story already...to me at least it would feel like forced drama.
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Old 2009-12-20, 21:40   Link #719
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If I really wanted to, I could go on a rampage and wipe the discussion out entirely. Alas I've not succumbed to the powers of the dark side just yet.
Roflmao, watch out for Revan then; last I checked, he was still looking for a new apprentice

---

I've been trying to think about whether or not the whole child thing is happening right now and we're not thinking outside the box; Obviously, their is Miata right now, but then their is the possible relationship between Claire and Clarice, and one could say that Claire is the daughter of Teresa because she is passing on and continuing her legacy.

We're all thinking of children in the simple sense of them being born, and being loved and taken care of by their family but things don't normally go so simple in this world, so we have to look at other ways how the word can be applied.

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Old 2009-12-20, 22:48   Link #720
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Some Claymores absolutely desire (or stumble into) a motherly role in their life, despite being half monster super soldier killing machines. Teresa picked up Clare, Clare picked up Raki, and now Galatea is taking care of children of Rabona. I guess Clarice could be considered a mom too and the role is growing on her. That and she is too weak to escape Miata. Riful was planning on raising Raciella as her own death machine. Raki took care of Priscilla like she was his daughter because she got tiny and he got huge! Isley looked at Priscilla and Raki as a new family.

If a claymore can have children physically or not is unknown. Helen's statement about Raki is by no means conclusive. Also Teresa being sexually assaulted is ambiguous on the subject. We don't know if Teresa was sterile or if she can chose if she gets pregnant or not. Both events lean towards Claymore sterility at the moment, but they are by no means absolute answers. Agatha showed that even AB's have sexual desire depending on who they are.

And there are lots of things the organization does not know about. Like partial awakenings. So even if they intended for Claymores to be sterile that does not necessarily mean they are.

There is another question tied to this one that absolutely has to be answered. How are youma created? Youma can steal memories and shift shape. We are told it is youma that is placed into Claymores. And Claymores remains can be placed into other claymores ala Clare. AB's can also be placed into girls to make Abyssal eaters. The same source can be split to make Alicia and Beth who can share their soul. So by the time Clare gets Teresa, a youma has died, Teresa who had that youma's energy died, and now Clare has it. That is 3 times the youma energy has been moved with 2 character deaths necessary... if youma are really used.

I think youma tie in closely to the question of claymore children and that subject has to be approached some day. Especially now that the destroyer has manifested an ability to use its own life force to take over other creatures whether human or Claymore. They didn't take over Duff though. They jsut went straight through him. Same with Riful. I wonder if that is significant...

Last edited by chibamonster; 2009-12-21 at 00:22.
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