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Old 2010-01-13, 13:48   Link #101
tsunade666
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I can't even read it because the letters or words in the card are too small to read but still people try to dig in too it.
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Old 2010-01-13, 14:02   Link #102
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One thing to add about Saten's powers. In the Railgun manga special chapter there was an announcement that both Uiharu and Saten would have their powers revealed. Uiharu's so far haven't been revealed, and you can't really count on what happened with Level Upper being Saten's powers.

So, look forward to it?
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Old 2010-01-13, 17:39   Link #103
Haak
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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
Kiyama said that she was the only person who would ever be able to use multiple powers at once.
I never said Saten would.
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Old 2010-01-13, 17:42   Link #104
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You were implying that an esper could develop different powers if they "focused" on that certain power. That's actually not true. For example: All of the Misaka clones had the exact same power over electricity. If I understand what you're saying, you believe that if a Misaka clone didn't go through an "electricity development curriculum" then she might end up with fire manipulation or clairvoyance.

An esper's power is like a genetic trait.

Academy City has a unique development program for every different power. It's also implied that they're discovering new powers every day. If every single person could "choose" their power, then Academy City would definitely try to create an army of Accelerators.

Also, if I remember, Saten actually had multiple "A's" on her score card.
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Old 2010-01-13, 17:49   Link #105
Haak
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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
You were implying that an esper could develop different powers if they "focused" on that certain power.
If I did then I'm sorry, but i wasn't supposed to...

Could you indicate where that was implied because I'm honestly not seeing it. I said that Saten's possible Clairvoyance power was only working at a subconcious level she wasn't aware of.

About the power she got from level upper. Think about it: Saten is Level 0. According to Komoe, they're not only classed as Level 0 because they don't have powers but also because they're anomalies that aren't understood. In other words they haven't reacted the way the scientific model suggests they ought to have reacted. So it's not hard to imagine that Level 0's would also react differently to the Level Upper, which is based in the same scientific model.
Like I said, she doesn't have any powers, and Level Uppers works by increasing your power. So what's there to increase?

She only had one A btw. The rest was two B's and two C's.
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Old 2010-01-13, 17:59   Link #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
If I did then I'm sorry, but i wasn't supposed to...

Could you indicate where that was implied because I'm honestly not seeing it. I said that Saten's possible Clairvoyance power was only working at a subconcious level she wasn't aware of.
Don't worry about it. You're sorry if you implied it. I'm sorry that I saw the unintended implication.
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About the power she got from level upper. Think about it. Saten is Level 0. According to Komoe, they're not only classed as Level 0 because they don't have powers because they're anomalies that aren't understood. In other words they haven't reacted the way the scientific model suggests they ought to have reacted. So it's not hard to imagine that Level 0's would also react differently to the Level Upper, which is based in the same scientific model.
Like I said, she doesn't have any powers, and Level Uppers works by increasing your power. So what's there to increase?

She only had one A btw. The rest was two B's and two C's.
The general consensus is that Level Upper proves that every person, even the Level 0's, have some power that can be developed. When you are Level 0, you either don't know how to use your power or your power is undetectably weak. However, Level Upper works by allowing the users to share experience with other power users.

This is sort of "cheating", as it allows people who couldn't understand (in many cases due to laziness) the concept behind the "personal reality" or "faith" required to use powers to suddenly grasp it by sharing minds with those that did. Therefore, Saten suddenly could "use" her power even though she did not really understand the "personal reality" because somebody was almost doing the thinking for her.

The reason why I don't believe her power is clairvoyance is because when she finally realized her power through Level Upper, it was by seeing wind swirl leaves around in her hands. If you read the manga you wouldn't have been able to tell (she just stared at her hands), but in the anime it gave a bigger hint of what the nature of her power was.

Thanks for clearing up the part about two A's though.
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Old 2010-01-13, 19:18   Link #107
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The Level Upper doesn't actually 'increase' anything innate in the user; it just provides access external resources via the Level Upper network. In theory, it might also make it so that all users in the network share the same 'personal reality.' Following that line of conjecture:

The administrator of the Level Upper network can utilize any power possessed by any person in the network because they are all running in the network's shared 'personal reality.' She can also use any of these powers at a high level, because she has access to and control over the resources of the entire network.

When a power user is connected to the Level Upper network, they automatically utilize the extra available resources to enhance their existing power. Their brains may even be hardwired through intense training and genetics to run that specific power, so that is all they can do.

When a level zero user is connected to the Level Upper network, they may manifest a power as a side effect of being part of a shared 'personal reality' where powers are possible. The power they manifest may be based on a genetic predisposition, or they may manifest a power that is already available on the network and compatible with their current brain development.

Either option seems possible to me, but since the network administrator is a level zero and she can access ANY power on the network, it seems to follow that any other level zero users should also be able to access any power - within the limitations of the resources and access that they are permitted.
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Old 2010-01-13, 19:43   Link #108
babohtea
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Remember that Kiyama was also the master of the network, while the rest of them were only "users". She was only able to use the other powers after her eyes turned black/red, which meant that she was now accessing the network. Also remember that Kiyama isn't actually "in" the network. All of the people "in" the network all passed out, and Kiyama knew that would happen. She wouldn't risk doing that to herself, so never truly became a "user" of the network.

Also, she only exhibited powers after her eyes turned red. I don't remember any level upper users doing that.

Kiyama described Level Upper as allowing the user to share the calculations, calculation capabilities and experiences of other power users. Also, in all cases in which level upper was used by a user who already had some control over their powers, their powers only further developed. None of them gained additional powers.

Hence, because a Level 3 user would develop their same ability, we can make the assumption that a Level 0 user would also be developing their ability. The idea that the level 0 user "borrows" a power while the Level 3 "develops" their power doesn't have any evidence. It's much more likely that the Level 0 also developed their existing power, only they didn't know what it was.
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Old 2010-01-13, 20:11   Link #109
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I don't understand how you can reason that she's not part of the network; the network is based on compatible brainwave patterns, and the wave model used is hers. She is a user, just an administrator-level user. She possesses the knowledge necessary to control the network, and she may be administrator by virtue of possessing the 'key' brainwave pattern innately, but she is still 'connected.'

The people that passed out did so because the other users on the network were accessing too much of their brains; they did not pass out before that point. Kiyama is administrator and controller of all resources, so (if she was smart) she would have been able to prevent her own 'personal' resources from being co-opted.

Which comes more naturally, doing something that you already know how to do and have practiced to the point that you could probably do it in your sleep, or developing a new skill? I reasoned that since users with an existing power already have an 'outlet' for the extra resources that the level upper provides, that is what they would use those resources for, while users without an existing outlet for those resources would not be so constrained. It is not a question of 'borrowing' versus 'developing' since since the enhancements are not permanent.

The question is 'how is the temporary power of a level zero chosen?' Since they are not 'developing' anything, it does NOT necessarily follow that what they gain is what they would naturally gain under normal circumstances - it is just one of several possibilities.
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Old 2010-01-13, 20:39   Link #110
Miraluka
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The level 0s showing a personal reality didn't happened in the manga, is exclusive anime thing, the only explanation I can think i that the Level Upper shared experience and bringed enough calculation abilitie to force the brain of the user to show a personal reality or take one from another user if them have similarities.
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Old 2010-01-13, 20:44   Link #111
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What do you mean Wilfri?

I thought personal reality was just a concept used by Academy City instructors to help people learn the "faith" behind using their skills.

Exhibiting "personal reality" = exhibiting your skills. I know for a fact that level 0's did exhibit their skills, so they must have had their personal realities in the manga as well?
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Old 2010-01-13, 20:57   Link #112
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The people has their own point of view to understand the world which obviously is different to others, in Academy City using drugs and different test on the brains of the students, scientists helps them to manifest their inner reality in the world. That makes me think thats why Touma can erase them, are just illusions.
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Old 2010-01-13, 21:08   Link #113
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The things that Touma can do with his Imagine Breaker make more sense if you consider the possibility that a 'Personal Reality' is an actual thing, and not just a pretty concept.

Let us say that a personal reality is a zone (possibly of infinite size) that power users manifest, wherein they have the ability to overwrite the natural laws of 'base reality' in specific ways. The nature of a power would be determined by how the user can alter the natural laws, and the level of the power would be determined by how good they are at it and how thoroughly they can overwrite base reality with their personal reality.

Now let us say that Imagine Breaker nullifies personal realities. If a power user had a personal reality wherein he could cause aluminium to spontaneously decay into gravitons, thus creating a physical force, then the artificially created gravitons, and the force they exert, only exists within the user's personal reality, so Touma is able to sheild others with his imagine breaker by canceling out that personal reality. Likewise, Mikoto is able to create and exert electromagnetic forces within her personal reality. Any physical force created from that electromagnetic force is also part of her personal reality, so the kinetic energy, manifested as linear motion, possessed by a coin launched from her railgun would instantly disappear when it came into contact with the Imagine Breaker.

A falling girder is another matter entirely; if a girder is airborne and falling on him, then he could still be harmed by the kinetic energy imparted to the girder by gravity in base reality. If it was flying _toward_ him, however, he could probably rob it of its artificially imparted _forward_ motion by using Imagine Breaker, causing it to immediately fall to the ground - assuming that his Imagine Breaker has enough range to nullify the personal reality along the entire length of the girder.
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Old 2010-01-13, 21:34   Link #114
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If Personal reality were an actual thing, then all espers would have powers similar to Izzard. Why does their personal reality only manifest in one aspect?

It can't literally be a personal reality, and a "personal reality over electrons" just becomes a little ridiculous for me. I still think that the level of understanding of esper powers held by even by Academy City is incredibly low.

So, personal reality may actually just mean that esper powers require faith to use. It could mean anything actually, because nobody (probably even Kamachi) knows much about them.

Nonetheless faith and personal reality really are the concept for most intents and purposes. The only difference is that one of them (personal reality) creates an incredible level of annoying complexity when you have an Esper vs. Esper or an Esper vs. Touma fight.
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Old 2010-01-13, 21:46   Link #115
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You might be more familiar with the term 'AIM diffusion Field', which is another name for the 'Personal Reality' and it means about the same thing.
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Old 2010-01-13, 21:50   Link #116
tsunade666
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Why use the term faith?

And why comment about the academy knowledge about espers ability knowing they are the one who are developing it. It maybe not too great but still to say its low is just not good.

And the term AIM is still a question that's why even komoe sensei is doing her research about it. But even so they still called it their own reality to manifest while using the example of the cat.
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Old 2010-01-13, 22:15   Link #117
Marcus H.
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Hmm, thinking about the aspect of Personal Reality, I think Ruiko will have a looong time in developing her ability.

Spoiler for ep14 happenings:


I'm not sure if that's the Personal Reality she wanted the most, and if that is the one, then she's closer to the Personal Reality that Touma might have developed in his past (realization of a world without powers).
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Old 2010-01-13, 23:57   Link #118
tsunade666
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This personal reality thing of to aru verse is kinda confusing but from what komoe sensei thinks than its making materialization of their own reality. But their reality is just constricted to only one type of reality.

How do their won reality being constricted to only one reality to begin with?
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Old 2010-01-14, 01:19   Link #119
Claies
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Originally Posted by Marcus H. View Post
Hmm, thinking about the aspect of Personal Reality, I think Ruiko will have a looong time in developing her ability.

Spoiler for ep14 happenings:
It would make sense, then, that nearly all the high-level espers are either crazy (Accelerator, Mugino), socially weird/awkward (underground members), or incredibly childish (Mikoto, Kuroko, Mitsuko), as those traits tend to go hand-in-hand with creativity and personal fantasy.

On the other hand, most of the lower-level characters are down-to-earth people with a firmer grasp in reality.
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Old 2010-01-14, 06:12   Link #120
Haak
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Originally Posted by babohtea View Post
Hence, because a Level 3 user would develop their same ability, we can make the assumption that a Level 0 user would also be developing their ability. The idea that the level 0 user "borrows" a power while the Level 3 "develops" their power doesn't have any evidence. It's much more likely that the Level 0 also developed their existing power, only they didn't know what it was.
But there is also no evidence that Level 0's all neccessarily have an existing power.

As I said, Komoe in episode 13 of Majutsu said that Level 0's were anomalies. And the reason they're anomalies is because they don't react normally to the system. So it's perfectly rationally to say that they wouldn't react any similarly to other levels when using Level Upper. So the 'evidence' that Level 0's have power based on the results of Level Upper isn't conclusive.
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